Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Tox56

Swiwi wrote: »

I am not necessarily a fan of O'Gara and co. But I would warn about getting rid of all experienced hands. John Mitchell in his wisdom left Mehrtens & Cullen out of his 2003 RWC squad, and refused to pick Umaga even after he recovered from his knee injury. Maybe Carlos Spencer & Mils Muliania were playing better than the old dogs...but on a long night for NZ at stadium Australia, bringing a bit of experience off the bench was sorely missed. Ditto in 2007 when Dougie Howlett & Aaron Mauger were in their Sunday Best in the stands, while Isaia "wunderkind" Toeava did his best impression of a possum in the headlights.

Not for 1 minute saying O'Gara should be picked, but a mix of young & old is always prudent IMHO.

That's fair enough for the other games, but the Fiji game (assuming it's not worth anything) is the best chance to blood youth. Knowing Kidney, it will also be the only chance, so hopefully they'll give everyone a fair crack of the whip.

Swiwi

Swiwi wrote: »

I am not necessarily a fan of O'Gara and co. But I would warn about getting rid of all experienced hands. John Mitchell in his wisdom left Mehrtens & Cullen out of his 2003 RWC squad, and refused to pick Umaga even after he recovered from his knee injury. Maybe Carlos Spencer & Mils Muliania were playing better than the old dogs...but on a long night for NZ at stadium Australia, bringing a bit of experience off the bench was sorely missed. Ditto in 2007 when Dougie Howlett & Aaron Mauger were in their Sunday Best in the stands, while Isaia "wunderkind" Toeava did his best impression of a possum in the headlights.

Not for 1 minute saying O'Gara should be picked, but a mix of young & old is always prudent IMHO.

Keeping someone like Mick Galway in the team is a good call. Someone with a good head, and a massively positive influence not just during the game but in training etc. A squad leader.

ROG has never struck me as a team player tbh. And has managed to stretch that image even further to the negative in the last 18 months.

I agree that "out with the old, in with the new" blindly is a bad idea, but careful trimming of squads is the right way, though in this case, it wouldn't be a trimming.

All of Jackson, Madigan and Keatly have been better than ROG this season. They've earned the right to be in the squad. ROG has not. It is no longer as easy as rocking into the provincial jersey and kicking over a few penalties, Sexton, Jackson, Madigan and Keatly are doing that and more since the the start of 2012.

GerM

Hype710 wrote: »

Could be a useful game for the likes of Earls and O'Brien to make comebacks in before playing against Argentina, assuming they are out of the SA match.

Something like: Dave Kearney, Gilroy, Earls, Marshall, Zebo, Madigan, Marshall, Buckley, Strauss, Fitzpatrick, Tuohy, Toner, Henderson, O'Brien, O'Mahony.

Happy it's non capped if it means international exposure for the likes of Buckley, Henderson and Luke Marshall.

I will be surprised if we are treated to such a selection. I would almost put the house on it being used to get match fitness for several experienced players just as the Barabarians game was or the Fiji game in 2009. The remainder will be a blend of fringe players and a few young prospects.

I can envisage the likes of Court, ROG, Trimble and, depending on match fitness, even POC getting a run.

The one real downside of it being a non cap international is that Strauss still won't be IQ if he gets a run.

CIARAN_BOYLE

GerM wrote: »

The one real downside of it being a non cap international is that Strauss still won't be IQ if he gets a run.

As I'm pretty sure I've mentioned before it counts as a game of Ireland's next most senior international team against Fiji's most senior international team so if Strauss plays then he is locked in as Irish

www.irb.com/mm/Document/LawsRegs/Regulations/02/06/29/68/nsrt.pdf

Podge_irl

Ireland's next international team is the Wolfhounds, not an Ireland XV selection. It was deliberately changed from a Wolfhounds (incidentally, what a stupid name) game to a XV selection. Probably because Kidney plans on giving game time to the likes of ROG and DOC in it.

Also, experience my arse. There is literally no reason for having ROG anywhere near any of the Irish squads for the AIs.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ireland's next international team is the Wolfhounds, not an Ireland XV selection. It was deliberately changed from a Wolfhounds (incidentally, what a stupid name) game to a XV selection. Probably because Kidney plans on giving game time to the likes of ROG and DOC in it.

Also, experience my arse. There is literally no reason for having ROG anywhere near any of the Irish squads for the AIs.

IF you look at the irb.com link I posted before from the IRB website with a list of all second teams you will notice that Irelands next senior representative team is listed as

Irish Wolfhounds ("Wolfhounds") (Ireland XV v Fiji November 17, 2012)

Which imo means that it counts to tie someone to Ireland internationally

Podge_irl

You got me. I didn't bother reading it!

That's interesting. Wonder why on earth it was changed from the Wolfhounds to an Ireland XV game.

totallegend

GerM wrote: »

The one real downside of it being a non cap international is that Strauss still won't be IQ if he gets a run.

I would hope that, aside from the 'legality' of it, if Strauss plays against Fiji it would be a prelude to benching against Argentina and getting a full cap. He is vastly superior to Cronin.

Hype710

We could well see Strauss making his debut off the bench against SA, coming on to play not only against the country of his birth but also scrummage against his cousin Adriaan!

thomond2006

Hype710 wrote: »

We could well see Strauss making his debut off the bench against SA, coming on to play not only against the country of his birth but also scrummage against his cousin Adriaan!

*sigh*

Cpt_Blackbeard

Its crazy how so may posters are promoting Henderson for Irish squad inclusion after 4 games at senior level for Ulster, yet there are exclamations of bias when players like Zebo and POM are included after great HEC runs.

ArmaniJeanss

Why is Ireland v Fiji not a full international?

From what I can see on the fixture list there are full internationals between England and Fiji, Wales v Samoa, Scotland v Tonga, France v Samoa, and Italy v Tonga.
But again Ireland are the exception, I'm struggling to remember the last time that Ireland had a full capped test match at home to a team outside the Big 10.

I'm sure England and France et al don't particularly relish these sort of fixtures either, but they seem to consistently fulfil them whereas we seem to be able to duck these games. Which personally I think is a bit sad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_end-of-year_rugby_union_tests

Edit : Seems we played Samoa in 2010, so mea culpa. Point remains re this set of AIs with everyone else having one 'non glamour' international whilst we don't.

Podge_irl

I'm assuming it was a financial decision. Ireland are contractually obliged to play all full internationals at Lansdowne Road. I imagine they didn't think they could fill it against Fiji, so to move it to Thomond it needed to be downgraded.

CIARAN_BOYLE

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Why is Ireland v Fiji not a full international?

From what I can see on the fixture list there are full internationals between England and Fiji, Wales v Samoa, Scotland v Tonga, France v Samoa, and Italy v Tonga.
But again Ireland are the exception, I'm struggling to remember the last time that Ireland had a full capped test match at home to a team outside the Big 10.

I'm sure England and France et al don't particularly relish these sort of fixtures either, but they seem to consistently fulfil them whereas we seem to be able to duck these games. Which personally I think is a bit sad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_end-of-year_rugby_union_tests

Edit : Seems we played Samoa in 2010, so mea culpa. Point remains re this set of AIs with everyone else having one 'non glamour' international whilst we don't.

IRFU wanted to play Ireland v Fiji outside aviva but they can't do that due to contracts (naming rights deal with aviva) so Ireland XV will play Fiji in Thomond

ArmaniJeanss

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

IRFU wanted to play Ireland v Fiji outside aviva but they can't do that due to contracts (naming rights deal with aviva) so Ireland XV will play Fiji in Thomond

Cheers; I suppose its at least a reason, though I'm not sure the IRB fixture committee should be pandering to an IRFU issue/problem with its sponsorship contracts.

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Its crazy how so may posters are promoting Henderson for Irish squad inclusion after 4 games at senior level for Ulster, yet there are exclamations of bias when players like Zebo and POM are included after great HEC runs.

The difference is that Zebo played against New Zealand and POM in the 6 Nations. POM ahead of the superior Chris Henry (as we saw in the H Cup shortly afterwards).

No-one is calling for Henderson to be in the full team. It's like when Zebo played (poorly) for the Wolfhounds in January.

GerM

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Its crazy how so may posters are promoting Henderson for Irish squad inclusion after 4 games at senior level for Ulster, yet there are exclamations of bias when players like Zebo and POM are included after great HEC runs.

I don't think many, if any, are looking for Henderson to be included in the Irish side. People wouldn't mind seeing him against Fiji which, essentially, appears to be an A game in all but name. With that said, I think he'd be as well concentrating on getting HEC time at Ulster and perhaps getting an A cap in spring if he steps up and then a full cap next summer.

I think people took issue with the POM/Zebo selections because they were brought into the full XV for big games when there were other options available playing better. Henry, for example, was playing some excellent stuff and dominated POM when they met. Zebo was scoring for fun but there were clear gaps in his game defensively which were highlighted in many games. Happily, he seems to have been working hard over the summer and looks a far more complete player now to the extent that he should be in the Irish side in the autumn.

Seph503

I'd like to see Madigan and Keatley involved in the Fiji game, while not ideal dare I say even one at full back and the other at out-half and then change at half time.

If we can get them both on it'll save us from the Madigan Vs Keatley debates a few years down the line.

jacothelad

Seph503 wrote: »

I'd like to see Madigan and Keatley involved in the Fiji game, while not ideal dare I say even one at full back and the other at out-half and then change at half time.

If we can get them both on it'll save us from the Madigan Vs Keatley debates a few years down the line.

Surely it would make far more sense to have a full back at full back for an Ireland side. This idea of moving non specialist- players to a specialist position is nonsense usually - unless you are someone like BOD or Mike Gibson. Certainly there are extreme occasions when pragmatism has to rule but not when you have a range of options. Neither Keatley nor Madigan are anything more than barely adequate at 15. What does it say to any other player who starts there for their province? It might appear to say 'Sorry mate, you are crap.' In actual fact what it says of the coach is 'Sorry mate, you are a crap coach with no ideas and no trust in players other than a narrow coterie of your chums.' Neither Madigan nor Keatley is ever going to be a starting 15 for Ireland unless someone has shot all the other possibilities.

Seph503

jacothelad wrote: »

Surely it would make far more sense to have a full back at full back for an Ireland side. This idea of moving non specialist- players to a specialist position is nonsense usually - unless you are someone like BOD or Mike Gibson. Certainly there are extreme occasions when pragmatism has to rule but not when you have a range of options. Neither Keatley nor Madigan are anything more than barely adequate at 15. What does it say to any other player who starts there for their province? It might appear to say 'Sorry mate, you are crap.' In actual fact what it says of the coach is 'Sorry mate, you are a crap coach with no ideas and no trust in players other than a narrow coterie of your chums.' Neither Madigan nor Keatley is ever going to be a starting 15 for Ireland unless someone has shot all the other possibilities.

Oh I agree. I probably should have put more of my thoughts down.

I think we would all agree that it would be criminal if ROG starts this Fiji game, so we should be looking at the Ian's to be our starting 10s. Thanks to DK's ineptitude by not bringing Madigan into the fold before in some fashion (who based on last year would have been the one to go with), he will now have to choose whether to leave one Ian out completely (in order to have an experienced bench option) or go with two inexperienced out halves at this level.

Knowing DK's preference to move players around, it wouldn't surprise me if he DID move either Ian to full back to accommodate the other and thus avoid any media murmurings about not playing youth and avoiding making a tough decision on who to play/drop.

irishbucsfan

I would like to see something like, as unlikely as it might be:

Buckley, Strauss, Loughney, Tuohy, Toner, McLaughlin, Henry, POM;
Marshall, Jackson, Zebo, McFadden, Cave, Gilroy, Morris

Cronin, Kilcoyne, Hagan, Stevenson, Henderson, Marmion, Madigan, Griffin


Although I expect it'll be much more familiar than that

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would like to see something like, as unlikely as it might be:

Buckley

Christ, every time I see that I get straight on my high horse, then I remember that it's Dennis Buckley and I calm down again.

I like that team you've picked but realistically I think the Fiji game will feature most of the subs from the SA game, plus a few more current fringe players and maybe one or two newbies, so your bench is a bit optimistic.

Maybe:
Court, Strauss, Fitzpatrick (not sure if he'll be fit?)
Toner, Tuohy
Dave O'C, Henry, Wilson
Marshall, Keatley/Jackson
Zebo, McFadden, Cave, Gilroy
Jones

bench: Buckley, Hagan, Varley, McCarthy, Boss, Jackson/Keatley, D Kearney

TBH I'd be happy enough with that.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would like to see something like, as unlikely as it might be:

Buckley, Strauss, Loughney, Tuohy, Toner, McLaughlin, Henry, POM;
Marshall, Jackson, Zebo, McFadden, Cave, Gilroy, Morris

Cronin, Kilcoyne, Hagan, Stevenson, Henderson, Marmion, Madigan, Griffin


Although I expect it'll be much more familiar than that

That's exactly how a Wolfhounds / 'A' team should look.

Quint2010

I reckon POM will be starting for the full team in the AI's. With no SOB and the usual doubts over Ferris-Deccie will find a spot for him in the back row somewhere. Also there is no way Kidney won't pick ROG for the bench spot.

RoundBox11

totallegend wrote: »

I would hope that, aside from the 'legality' of it, if Strauss plays against Fiji it would be a prelude to benching against Argentina and getting a full cap. He is vastly superior to Cronin.

Ah now...

.ak

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Ah now...

You don't think he is? I love Cronin. He's a pacey hooker with plenty of skills, but he's not in the same league as Strauss imo....

Tox56

Strauss and Cronin from the start? No contest, Strauss is quality. In terms of impact coming off the bench? That's a lot closer. Cronin is the sort of player who was born to be sprung from the bench when the game starts to break up.

.ak

totallegend wrote: »

Christ, every time I see that I get straight on my high horse, then I remember that it's Dennis Buckley and I calm down again.

What? He's scoring tries for fun in the Heineken Cup don't ya know.... :P

Scioch

.ak wrote: »

What? He's scoring tries for fun in the Heineken Cup don't ya know.... :P

Is he having a good run of it over there or whats going on with him ? Aside from his heroics at the weekend.

.ak

Scioch wrote: »

Is he having a good run of it over there or whats going on with him ? Aside from his heroics at the weekend.

Haven't heard anything recently but early on in their season apparently he was getting mullered in the scrums. Haven't actually seen anything tho.