Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

leftleg

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Much of the opinions on DOC are based solely on lazy analysis. He doesn't go on barnstorming runs or lord it in the lineout, so he obviously isn't a good player; how many of of the same posters who who criticise DOC were singing Thorn's praises after his cameo in blue, I don't know.

DOC is the form player, but I'd still like to see Tuohy or Ryan included in the starting XV. Its not the same as at centre where we've no proven longterm backups to D'Arcy/BOD - both Ryan and Tuohy have have shown they can step up - so if DOC starts I'd have no qualms, but I'd still prefer if the players who'll be around for the foreseeable future are given a shot.

Thorn was brilliant and DOC was in crap form, nothing to see here.

RoundBox11

I love the anticipation for the squad to be announced. Always the optimist! I'm not expecting a lot of change but i hope Kidney will for once pick the form players, however unlikely it is. I can see the Connacht lads being completely ignored as usual tho.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a BOD-Earls centre partnership again. I think if they had a proper backs coach to organize the backline it could actually work.

As for the Fiji game i'm expecting something like this:

1. Kilcoyne
2. Strauss
3. Hagan (ideally it'd be Fitzpatrick but seeing as he's injured.... once its not Archer :mad:)
4. Stevenson
5. Toner
6. McLaughlin (C)
7. Dougall (not too keen on the idea tho..)
8. Ruddock

9. Marshall
10. Keatley (It should be Jackson tho..)
11. Zebo
12. Marshall
13. Cave
14. Gilroy
15. Conway

Bench: Sherry, Buckley, Loughney, Henderson, DOCII, Boss, Madigan, O'Halloran

Fireball07

wprathead wrote: »

woah stall the ball lads, has no one been watching McCarthy this season?! how anyone can say DOC is Ireland's form lock is unfair when McCarthy has been playing exceptional all season. He is better in the choke tackle, more mobile around the park, and is at least equal to him in the lineout and scrum. His contract is up at end of this season and I wouldn't be surprised if Leinster snapped him up- he is exactly what they need

that said DOC is playing better this season than last season, so if he was deemed good enough by Deccie back then he is shoe in for the autumn internationals..

I've seen McCarthy a good few times this season, he's playing well but I definitely think DOC is playing better this season. Maybe a bit unfair of me not to mention McCarthy at all, but realistically he's not going to start in the big match.

irishbucsfan

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

DOC is the form player, but I'd still like to see Tuohy or Ryan included in the starting XV. Its not the same as at centre where we've no proven longterm backups to D'Arcy/BOD - both Ryan and Tuohy have have shown they can step up - so if DOC starts I'd have no qualms, but I'd still prefer if the players who'll be around for the foreseeable future are given a shot.

That's 100% how I feel on the subject.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Fireball07 wrote: »

I've seen McCarthy a good few times this season, he's playing well but I definitely think DOC is playing better this season. Maybe a bit unfair of me not to mention McCarthy at all, but realistically he's not going to start in the big match.

He's been good from the limited amount I've seen of him this year and is a player I generally rate; he'd be a great signing for Leinster next year.

However, at almost 31, I don't see much use in giving him gametime to see if he is able to get up to the required level when he's not going to be anything but a stop gap. There are younger players who've already proven themselves good internationals and McCarthy is unfortunate to miss out due to his age.

ed7890

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I love the anticipation for the squad to be announced. Always the optimist! I'm not expecting a lot of change but i hope Kidney will for once pick the form players, however unlikely it is. I can see the Connacht lads being completely ignored as usual tho.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a BOD-Earls centre partnership again. I think if they had a proper backs coach to organize the backline it could actually work.

As for the Fiji game i'm expecting something like this:

1. Kilcoyne
2. Strauss
3. Hagan (ideally it'd be Fitzpatrick but seeing as he's injured.... once its not Archer :mad:)
4. Stevenson
5. Toner
6. McLaughlin (C)
7. Dougall (not too keen on the idea tho..)
8. Ruddock

9. Marshall
10. Keatley (It should be Jackson tho..)
11. Zebo
12. Marshall
13. Cave
14. Gilroy
15. Conway

Bench: Sherry, Buckley, Loughney, Henderson, DOCII, Boss, Madigan, O'Halloran

Is Ruddock back from injury yet? How could he be a form player?

danthefan

Now we're comparing DOC to Brad Thorn. Just when you think a message board couldn't surprise you...

Fireball07

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I love the anticipation for the squad to be announced. Always the optimist! I'm not expecting a lot of change but i hope Kidney will for once pick the form players, however unlikely it is. I can see the Connacht lads being completely ignored as usual tho.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a BOD-Earls centre partnership again. I think if they had a proper backs coach to organize the backline it could actually work.

As for the Fiji game i'm expecting something like this:

1. Kilcoyne
2. Strauss
3. Hagan (ideally it'd be Fitzpatrick but seeing as he's injured.... once its not Archer :mad:)
4. Stevenson
5. Toner
6. McLaughlin (C)
7. Dougall (not too keen on the idea tho..)
8. Ruddock

9. Marshall
10. Keatley (It should be Jackson tho..)
11. Zebo
12. Marshall
13. Cave
14. Gilroy
15. Conway

Bench: Sherry, Buckley, Loughney, Henderson, DOCII, Boss, Madigan, O'Halloran

I'm not a fan of Ruddock at 8...I know we don't have that many options but surely we have someone else? (I'm struggling to think of someone tbh...)

I'd say Zebo will start for the senior team, I'd probably give Conway or TOH a go on the wing. As for full-back, not a whole load of options there either. I really wouldn't be surprised to see one of Madigan or Keatley there, and the other at OH. Jackson deserves to be subbing for the senior team imo.

I'd also have Marmion ahead of Boss.

RoundBox11

ed7890 wrote: »

Is Ruddock back from injury yet? How could he be a form player?

Yeah he played for Leinster A the other day.

He's not the form player but there are no other irish 8's. Heaslip and POM are beyond wolfhound level (and i don't rate POM as an 8 anyway). So that leaves, Auva, Butler whose at best 3rd choice for munster, Coughlan whose injured and Wilson whose injured.

Fireball07

danthefan wrote: »

Now we're comparing DOC to Brad Thorn. Just when you think a message board couldn't surprise you...

DOC is a similar type of lock to Thorn?

No one said he was as good as him.....but the role they perform in the team is similar...It's hardly that much of a surprise.

Cpt_Blackbeard

danthefan wrote: »

Now we're comparing DOC to Brad Thorn. Just when you think a message board couldn't surprise you...

Do Thorn and DOC play a similar game and bring similar attributes to the field? Cave and Smith were compared in a similar way a few pages ago, yet you saw no issue there despite a much larger difference between their respective abilities.

Tox56

Never been impressed with Ruddock at 8 and I don't think he has a future there, wouldn't mind seeing him at 6 but we could surely find someone to play 8..

Fireball07

McKeon?

Hard to say he deserves it (nothing against him but he's not a Connacht starter) but there really isn't anyone else.

Coughlan would be a certainty, Wilson would be a great option.....Butler doesn't start for Munster. POM or Henry might end up playing there (although Henry hasn't played 8 in a good while either...) Ruddock is a likelihood actually.

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Do Thorn and DOC play a similar game and bring similar attributes to the field? Cave and Smith were compared in a similar way a few pages ago, yet you saw no issue there despite a much larger difference between their respective abilities.

It really isn't the same Captain, it would have been the equivalent of saying "I wonder if the same people criticising Cave were raving about Smith when playing for the All Blacks", which isn't what I said at all.

RoundBox11

Tox56 wrote: »

Never been impressed with Ruddock at 8 and I don't think he has a future there, wouldn't mind seeing him at 6 but we could surely find someone to play 8..

He played very well for the wolfhounds at 8 last time. Were so thin for 8s i think he should be given a go there

Fireball07 wrote: »

I'd also have Marmion ahead of Boss.

I personally would too. just reckon Kidneys more likely to go with Boss

Swiwi

danthefan wrote: »

Now we're comparing DOC to Brad Thorn. Just when you think a message board couldn't surprise you...

Chalk & cheese. Thorn is a monster scrummager, cleans out rucks likes there no tomorrow, monster on defence & carrying the ball up. Wouldn't mortgage your house on him in the lineout. In saying that did secure the pivotal lineout in RWC final.

DOC is a solid enough performer, but really it is only at lineouts that he might have the edge on Thorn.

Only my opinion.

Fireball07

RoundBox11 wrote: »

He played very well for the wolfhounds at 8 last time. Were so thin for 8s i think he should be given a go there

I don't know if I'd say he played "very well", he was decent enough. But I've seen him have some absolute shockers there (well a couple anyway) too.


Ruddock is a very good player, but I'd be shocked if he has any sort of long-term future at 8.

Fireball07

Swiwi wrote: »

Chalk & cheese. Thorn is a monster scrummager, cleans out rucks likes there no tomorrow, monster on defence & carrying the ball up. Wouldn't mortgage your house on him in the lineout. In saying that did secure the pivotal lineout in RWC final.

DOC is a solid enough performer, but really it is only at lineouts that he might have the edge on Thorn.

Only my opinion.

I don't think many would disagree with you but no one said DOC was as good as Thorn or even that close.

DOC's scrummaging, cleaning out rucks and defence are his strong point too. He doesn't do them as well as Thorn but it's unfair to criticise DOC because they're the only things he does...He has been doing all those things extremely well this season.

Blackheath

I think Paddy Butler is a future No.8 for Ireland, but this Autumn could be 12 months too early for him

RoundBox11

its worrying to think theres only really 3 good IQ 8's in the coutry and two of them are 31 or over... (discounting POM)

Hagz

O'Mahony has looked good at 8 IMO. I wouldn't be surprised to see him there in the Fiji game.

EDIT: Also, Ruddock's fairly banal at 8. He can do a job there for Leinster in the Rabo games but that's about it.

ed7890

If I was picking it at the moment, I'd have Butler over Ruddock. He's started 3 games this season and come off the bench in 4. He's an out and out 8, more so than Ruddock, and he's looked really good in his performances so far.

Fireball07

RoundBox11 wrote: »

its worrying to think theres only really 3 good IQ 8's in the coutry and two of them are 31 or over...

I'd say POM could definitely do a job there in the future if called upon. And there's always SOB when he's fit

Swiwi

Fireball07 wrote: »

I don't think many would disagree with you but no one said DOC was as good as Thorn or even that close.

DOC's scrummaging, cleaning out rucks and defence are his strong point too. He doesn't do them as well as Thorn but it's unfair to criticise DOC because they're the only things he does...He has been doing all those things extremely well this season.

Ok, I take your point.

Fireball07

ed7890 wrote: »

If I was picking it at the moment, I'd have Butler over Ruddock. He's started 3 games this season and come off the bench in 4. He's an out and out 8, more so than Ruddock, and he's looked really good in his performances so far.

Butler is an interesting one...I hope he makes a proper breakthrough this year, but I don't think he's close to international standard atm.

But then again, Ruddock isn't an international 8 by any stretch of the imagination as you point out.

I'd probably just play POM there tbh.

RoundBox11

Fireball07 wrote: »

I'd say POM could definitely do a job there in the future if called upon. And there's always SOB when he's fit

That is true about SOB! I dunno about POM. He never seems to have great control at the base and tends to get caught up when put under pressure. Although he does offer a good lineout option. He has the time to learn to be an 8 anyway. I'd say with DaveOC and Dougall coming through he may end up there in time. I just don't think he's up to it atm. But i suppose it's games like Fiji that are perfect for giving him the experience.

Part of the reason i doubt he'll play at 8 against Fiji is he fact that i'd say it's highly likely Kidney will pick him at 7 against the Boks. That in itself worries me. If guys like Botha, Brussow and Burger are playing they'll really get under POM's skin and he doesn't seem the best at controlling his aggression at times... I can see it being a niggly game like that.

Fishooks12

danthefan wrote: »

DOC on the wing is completely daft. Did I see a suggesting in this thread he's playing better than Touhy? He is in his arse.

IMO, this season, he is. Touhy hasn't been as good as he was last year

Now If I had to pick one over the other for the tour it would be Tuohy given DOC's age

DOC didn't turn into a bad lock over night just because Kidney was selecting him last year when there was better options.

Fireball07

RoundBox11 wrote: »

That is true about SOB! I dunno about POM. He never seems to have great control at the base and tends to get caught up when put under pressure. Although he does offer a good lineout option. He has the time to learn to be an 8 anyway. I'd say with DaveOC and Dougall coming through he may end up there in time. I just don't think he's up to it atm. But i suppose it's games like Fiji that are perfect for giving him the experience.

Part of the reason i doubt he'll play at 8 against Fiji is he fact that i'd say it's highly likely Kidney will pick him at 7 against the Boks. That in itself worries me. If guys like Botha, Brussow and Burger are playing they'll really get under POM's skin and he doesn't seem the best at controlling his aggression at times... I can see it being a niggly game like that.

He's not a great 8 yet, but I think it's a very difficult position to master, experience always helps. I think 8 is his weakest position in the back row atm (I think he'll be at 7 when Coughlan returns). But at the same time, I think he's better than Ruddock there.

But you're probably right that Kidney will pick him at 7 for SA. I'm not totally against it, although I think Henry's form should be rewarded, and POM would be an excellent impact sub. I think POM is a better carrier, more explosive than Henry...his breakdown work and defence aren't as good yet.

gally74

wprathead wrote: »

woah stall the ball lads, has no one been watching McCarthy this season?! how anyone can say DOC is Ireland's form lock is unfair when McCarthy has been playing exceptional all season. He is better in the choke tackle, more mobile around the park, and is at least equal to him in the lineout and scrum. His contract is up at end of this season and I wouldn't be surprised if Leinster snapped him up- he is exactly what they need

that said DOC is playing better this season than last season, so if he was deemed good enough by Deccie back then he is shoe in for the autumn internationals..

McCarthy was approached when Cronin went to Leinster, could still happen thou conn have qualter coming through

Donald Coyle

Presumably DK realises he needs a contract extension next season (look at EO'S... not much out there for an ex-Ireland coach). How's that going to happen? By winning the 6N. Fiji is an ideal opportunity to try out new talent in a no-pressure game. This could unearth a few alternatives to challenge the established players. Competition for places is seriously missing in the team, apart from a few well-documented cases. In the best-case scenario some players even impress enough to be included on the bench against Arg, or at least to include in training squads for the 6N.

BUT...

How well is a team of up-and-coming players likely to perform, given the lack of pitch time together? Would a couple of star-turns in a (potentially) disjointed team performance tell us enough about a player's international potential? Is there a risk that some players damage their chances by being thrown in at the deep end and suffering from a (again, potentially) poor team performance?

I share the optimism of other posters that we are going to see a mini-revolution in personell against Fiji, but the more I think about it, the game may be used as an opportunity to get some established players back up to speed. Any experimentation could be limited to fringe players who were called up to the last training squad (guys with at least a little exposure to the "system").