Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

GerM

Hagz wrote: »

It's more like when they have to intervene in defence it's usually a vital tackle, but in general a 9 will rarely have much to do in defence if everyone else is doing their job. Just sweep behind the defensive line. If I might add also, I think it's assumed Murray is the stronger defensively based on his size. Now, I probably do think Murray is the more physical, but not by enough to affect selection. I remember Cooney made a tremendous cover tackle at the start of the year and remember Stringer's infamous tap tackles so size doesn't automatically mean better defence, but like I said, a scrum-halves defence should not be what he is selected for anyway.

I always thought Stringer's tap tackles were a bit rubbish. Purely a novelty act that struggled to mask his inadequacies in defence. Cooney isn't too small either. Almost 14 stone according to LR and he'll probably put on a little more over the next couple of years.

Murray's better defence is definitely helped by his size but he's also quicker across the pitch than Reddan and able to make those hits like TOL did. I wouldn't diminish the act of sweeping across the line either. It's a very important defensive duty. It might only be called into use once a game but those tackles are often crucial.

Not saying I currently want Murray ahead of Reddan but if Murray was moving the ball well and doing his core duties then I'd definitely have him in the side due to those additional things his size and pace bring to the table.

Fireball07

Kilcoyne gave one penalty away against Racing iirc? He was never annihilated, he held his own at least imo. He was surprisingly good actually.


Buckley may be a slightly stronger scrummager, but I think Kilcoyne is better in the loose. They've both done well, but it's hardly worthy of a massive debate. (I'm guessing Kilcoyne will be behind Court anyway).


I do think Connacht don't get looked at equally, which is a pity. McSharry can feel a little hard done by, maybe Marmion too (although it could be argued that 3 others are at least as good as him). But Griffin didn't get a look in last year at all, thought maybe he could. There is a chance that Loughney will get called up for a bench spot though.

shuffol

Personally I think Buckley and Kilcoyne are very closely matched, it'd be a 50/50 call in my book but does anybody believe that it was likewise in Kidneys. For some reason less weight is given to quality performances in a Connacht shirt. Its not just about Buckley but a more general problem that I think is plain to see, Connacht will never be able to compete with the other provinces and retain their best talent if they've a better chance of international recognition elsewhere. The polar opposite is Munster where for some reason a handful of appearances sees young players parachuted into the national setup.

GerM

él statutorio wrote: »

I know the younger OH's have been playing well but can you honestly say that in a match against South Africa if we were playing well and in with a shot of winning the game and Sexton went off injured you'd rather have one of the young lads coming on instead of ROG?

3 years ago we started a novice outhalf against SA who the coach had selected in his squad for the first time.

He scored all the points and we won.

ROG is a busted flush at anything above middle tier HEC level. Persisting with him is to the detriment of this team and future Irish teams.

yimrsg

Hagz wrote: »

Overstatement. Lo Cicero is not Italy's most capped prop for his loose play. He's a good scrummager.

His might have been good but his best days are long gone. Racing are a far better side when he's not on the park.

gally74

As a conn fan disgusted today!

Conn played the toughest opposition last weekend and there is no reward, henshaw and Marion never put a foot wrong but it's Munster all the way.

I'm one that won't be supporting irl this autumn.

The ai internationals should be about developing youth for the 6n over the next 2 years, for doc, rog etc its games they don't need!! The youth in Irish rugby need not apply!

Scioch

gally74 wrote: »

As a conn fan disgusted today!

Conn played the toughest opposition last weekend and there is no reward, henshaw and Marion never put a foot wrong but it's Munster all the way.

I'm one that won't be supporting irl this autumn.

The ai internationals should be about developing youth for the 6n over the next 2 years, for doc, rog etc its games they don't need!! The youth in Irish rugby need not apply!

Just cos Kidney is a tool dont mean the guys dont deserve a bit of support.

Hagz

GerM wrote: »

Not saying I currently want Murray ahead of Reddan but if Murray was moving the ball well and doing his core duties then I'd definitely have him in the side due to those additional things his size and pace bring to the table.

Fair enough. You like your defensive scrum-halves eh? Personally I'm the opposite. I like my scrum-halves to be nippy and to be more influential in attack then defence. Give me a scrum-half that makes breaks over one who stops them.

Hagz

yimrsg wrote: »

His might have been good but his best days are long gone. Racing are a far better side when he's not on the park.

I still wouldn't brand him as 'terrible'.

irishbucsfan

Hagz wrote: »

Fair enough. You like your defensive scrum-halves eh? Personally I'm the opposite. I like my scrum-halves to be nippy and to be more influential in attack then defence. Give me a scrum-half you makes breaks over one who stops them.

Different opponents demand different approaches. Like Boss/Reddan

Although if Murray is going to play like he did in February then he shouldn't be near the team.

Fireball07

gally74 wrote: »

As a conn fan disgusted today!

Conn played the toughest opposition last weekend and there is no reward, henshaw and Marion never put a foot wrong but it's Munster all the way.

I'm one that won't be supporting irl this autumn.

The ai internationals should be about developing youth for the 6n over the next 2 years, for doc, rog etc its games they don't need!! The youth in Irish rugby need not apply!

The thing is neither DOC nor ROG are keeping Marmion or Henshaw out of the team.

There is no old, experienced player ahead of Henshaw...who could yet be included in the squad (it might depend on how Jones goes, I dunno).

And Marmion...he's done really well and I think he should have brought one more scrum-half but a strong case could be made for Marshall too (one more could be included for Fiji).

I agree with the general point about developing youth...but purely on squad selection, he has brought Kilcoyne, Marshall, Henderson, Zebo. Whether he plays them is another point but it's not that bad.

And I disagree with not supporting the team, it's my opinion that you should always support your national team.

GerM

Hagz wrote: »

Fair enough. You like your defensive scrum-halves eh? Personally I'm the opposite. I like my scrum-halves to be nippy and to be more influential in attack then defence. Give me a scrum-half you makes breaks over one who stops them.

Nope, not necessarily. I want a scrum half to be a good passer, organiser and able to read a game first and foremost. I'd include breaking as part of their ability to read a game. If they're fulfilling these criteria, then the other aspects of the game come into play.

I also think Reddan is great at buzzing around the pitch and making things tick, getting the ball away quickly to his outhalf and his forwards. I don't think he is a particularly good breaking scrum half though. He used be back in his Wasps days but a break from him is a bit of a collector's item these days.

Hagz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Different opponents demand different approaches. Like Boss/Reddan

Although if Murray is going to play like he did in February then he shouldn't be near the team.

I don't have an opinion on who should play, just stating my opinion that I don't think a scrum-half should be picked on his defensive attributes.

goreyguy

thornley is of course defending kidney on newstalk

its_phil

gally74 wrote: »

I'm one that won't be supporting irl this

Wow that's pathetic.

I seriously hope some Connacht fans aren't turning into province over country people. Ireland is always priority #1 IMO

Cpt_Blackbeard

shuffol wrote: »

Personally I think Buckley and Kilcoyne are very closely matched, it'd be a 50/50 call in my book but does anybody believe that it was likewise in Kidneys. For some reason less weight is given to quality performances in a Connacht shirt. Its not just about Buckley but a more general problem that I think is plain to see, Connacht will never be able to compete with the other provinces and retain their best talent if they've a better chance of international recognition elsewhere. The polar opposite is Munster where for some reason a handful of appearances sees young players parachuted into the national setup.

I guess that explains Marshall's and Henderson's inclusion in the squad...

jacothelad

Hagz wrote: »

Overstatement. Lo Cicero is not Italy's most capped prop for his loose play. He's a good scrummager.

Not any more. The guy is done.

Hagz

jacothelad wrote: »

Not any more. The guy is done.

Is he really that bad? I'll admit that I only get to see him in HC matches and when he plays for Italy, but I remember him being decent last time I saw him for Italy. Has he capitulated this year in the Top14 or something? I put my hand up to yimsrg if that's actually the case.

goreyguy

Ireland is priority number 1 for me too, BUT its hard with kidney at the helm.

Hopefully he will blood some young players before he is shown the door.

leftleg

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I guess that explains Marshall's and Henderson's inclusion in the squad...

holding tacklebags

TheKeenMachine

gally74 wrote: »

As a conn fan disgusted today!

Conn played the toughest opposition last weekend and there is no reward, henshaw and Marion never put a foot wrong but it's Munster all the way.

I'm one that won't be supporting irl this autumn.

The ai internationals should be about developing youth for the 6n over the next 2 years, for doc, rog etc its games they don't need!! The youth in Irish rugby need not apply!

Connacht fans need to stop playing the "second-class citizen" card IMHO. If Buckley played for Munster and Kilcoyne for Connacht and Buckley was picked, I have no doubt that the same fans would be calling foul play and Munster bias.
Marmion and Henshaw are very inexperienced even at Rabo level and should be behind the likes of Boss, Marshall and TOL in Marmion's case and Hurley, Jones and Morris in Henshaw's. The only player who should feel hard done by is McSharry, and even then it's a marginal call. Undoubtedly Connacht have hugely promising youngsters but there's no conspiracy - players are just not ready.
Perhaps playing for Connacht means you have a right to be offended if you're not an automatic pick for Ireland. IRRC the same supporters were raging when Fionn Carr wasn't picked in his Connacht days.

gally74

its_phil wrote: »

Wow that's pathetic.

I seriously hope some Connacht fans aren't turning into province over country people. Ireland is always priority #1 IMO

What's frustrating is that we're going downhill quick 60-0 was embarrisjng, it was even worse that the I r f u setup the tour, the truth is I get more excited about provincial games now than IRELAND ,

jm08

gally74 wrote: »

What's frustrating is that we're going downhill quick 60-0 was embarrisjng, it was even worse that the I r f u setup the tour, the truth is I get more excited about provincial games now than IRELAND ,

Then you should be happy - this is Connacht's chance to win a few games in the Magners when other squads are depleted by being involved in national camps. Connacht need Marmion, Buckley & Henshaw more to play in the Rabo than Ireland need them to hold tackle bags.

Whats the story with Ah You. Is he injured?

Utopia Parkway

jm08 wrote: »

Whats the story with Ah You. Is he injured?

Think he played for the Eagles against Newcastle last weekend. Not sure though.

Podge_irl

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

Connacht fans need to stop playing the "second-class citizen" card IMHO. If Buckley played for Munster and Kilcoyne for Connacht and Buckley was picked, I have no doubt that the same fans would be calling foul play and Munster bias.

I have no doubt that if Buckley played for Munster and Kilcoyne for Connacht that Buckley would indeed have been picked. Which is sort of the issue (I don't, incidentally, have any problem with Kilcoyne being selected).

Regards Henshaw - Jones has played 20 minutes since the start of May and never put a consistent run of games together. He shouldn't be ahead of anyone. Hurley simply isn't that good and I haven't seen Morris play so can't comment. All things being equal he shouldn't be there as he would be behind Kearney and Earls at least. So far this season though he is the best IQ fullback playing.

Fireball07

Podge_irl wrote: »

I have no doubt that if Buckley played for Munster and Kilcoyne for Connacht that Buckley would indeed have been picked. Which is sort of the issue (I don't, incidentally, have any problem with Kilcoyne being selected).

Regards Henshaw - Jones has played 20 minutes since the start of May and never put a consistent run of games together. He shouldn't be ahead of anyone. Hurley simply isn't that good and I haven't seen Morris play so can't comment. All things being equal he shouldn't be there as he would be behind Kearney and Earls at least. So far this season though he is the best IQ fullback playing.

How many games has Henshaw played this season?

TheKeenMachine

Podge_irl wrote: »

I have no doubt that if Buckley played for Munster and Kilcoyne for Connacht that Buckley would indeed have been picked. Which is sort of the issue (I don't, incidentally, have any problem with Kilcoyne being selected).

Regards Henshaw - Jones has played 20 minutes since the start of May and never put a consistent run of games together. He shouldn't be ahead of anyone. Hurley simply isn't that good and I haven't seen Morris play so can't comment. All things being equal he shouldn't be there as he would be behind Kearney and Earls at least. So far this season though he is the best IQ fullback playing.

Henshaw is far too green for international rugby. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but was he not playing schools cup this time last year?
Personally, I think Kilcoyne would have been picked regardless but we can't say for sure. I was just using it as an example of how some Connacht fans think that their man has divine right to play internationally.

d-gal

Podge_irl wrote: »

I have no doubt that if Buckley played for Munster and Kilcoyne for Connacht that Buckley would indeed have been picked. Which is sort of the issue (I don't, incidentally, have any problem with Kilcoyne being selected).

Regards Henshaw - Jones has played 20 minutes since the start of May and never put a consistent run of games together. He shouldn't be ahead of anyone. Hurley simply isn't that good and I haven't seen Morris play so can't comment. All things being equal he shouldn't be there as he would be behind Kearney and Earls at least. So far this season though he is the best IQ fullback playing.

It annoys me even more that if our neighbours Wales were in the same situation then Henshaw and Marmion would be thrown into the squad no problem.
I am more pissed off with the scrum half selections, Marmion and Marshall are playing much better than Murray and are on par or even above Reddan. At least 1 should be picked. Scrum half is our weakest position IMO.

Anyone asking for Dougall's inclusion is mad. The worst of the selection in the Munster backrow and it's the worst backrow for them in over 10 years.

its_phil

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

Connacht fans need to stop playing the "second-class citizen" card IMHO. If Buckley played for Munster and Kilcoyne for Connacht and Buckley was picked, I have no doubt that the same fans would be calling foul play and Munster bias.
Marmion and Henshaw are very inexperienced even at Rabo level and should be behind the likes of Boss, Marshall and TOL in Marmion's case and Hurley, Jones and Morris in Henshaw's. The only player who should feel hard done by is McSharry, and even then it's a marginal call. Undoubtedly Connacht have hugely promising youngsters but there's no conspiracy - players are just not ready.
Perhaps playing for Connacht means you have a right to be offended if you're not an automatic pick for Ireland. IRRC the same supporters were raging when Fionn Carr wasn't picked in his Connacht days.

Agree with everything you said bar the Fionn Carr comment at the end.

Carr went backwards leaving Connacht and I think he was well worth a place in the Irish squad at a couple of stages of his time here and just because it hasn't worked out at Leinster doesn't mean he wasnt a very good candidate to play for Ireland at Connacht.

Cpt_Blackbeard

If Henshaw were a Munster player and was included in the Irish squad, the accusations of a Munster bias would be drowning out all other discussion on this thread. Similarly, if Henderson was a Munster player we'd have a similar influx of the tinfoil hat brigade with their pitchforks out.