Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Podge_irl

Fireball07 wrote: »

How many games has Henshaw played this season?

More than Jones.

I wouldn't have him in the 23, though I would have him in for the Fiji game. I also wouldn't have him in the squad if Kearney wasn't injured. But we have a serious problem at full back and the only one selected in the squad is actually a wing cum centre.

I'm just annoyed that the general consensus seems to be that Jones will get the last spot - a player made of glass with not much experience who wasn't overly impressive when he did play last season. Its not like Henshaw is being excluded for a seasoned international.

Utopia Parkway

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

Personally, I think Kilcoyne would have been picked regardless but we can't say for sure. I was just using it as an example of how some Connacht fans think that their man has divine right to play internationally.

They don't but there is a definite case to be made that if there is a marginal call is to be made between a Connacht player and a player from one of the other provinces that the nod will nearly always go for the Munster, Leinster or Ulster player.

In other years the excuse could be made that Connacht players weren't playing at the highest level in the HEC but that excuse can't be used anymore.

If the squad was picked purely on form this season then a strong argument could be made that 3 of those young Connacht backs deserve a place in the Ireland squad. Now squads are never picked purely on form but for not one of them to be involved is a bit disappointing from their perspective.

Podge_irl

its_phil wrote: »

Agree with everything you said bar the Fionn Carr comment at the end.

Carr went backwards leaving Connacht and I think he was well worth a place in the Irish squad at a couple of stages of his time here and just because it hasn't worked out at Leinster doesn't mean he wasnt a very good candidate to play for Ireland at Connacht.

I wouldn't have had Carr in Irish squads personally 90% of the time. He should have toured the US/Canada instead of Dowling though.

its_phil

jm08 wrote: »

Whats the story with Ah You. Is he injured?

No he's just a bag of s****

Fireball07

Podge_irl wrote: »

More than Jones.

I wouldn't have him in the 23, though I would have him in for the Fiji game. I also wouldn't have him in the squad if Kearney wasn't injured.

I'm just annoyed that the general consensus seems to be that Jones will get the last spot - a player made of glass with not much experience who wasn't overly impressive when he did play last season. Its not like Henshaw is being excluded for a seasoned international.

I know he's played more than Jones, but I'm interested in the number? Jones has been injured tbf.

The reason people think that is because Kidney has shown before that he likes Jones. If Jones plays well, he'll probably be included, probably undeservedly.

But is Henshaw actually better than Hurley? I don't know...

snow mad

él statutorio wrote: »

Large saffer back rows running into Reddan constantly. Murray is a bigger unit and will be picked for this reason.

If anyone should be picked for this reason it should be boss

jamiedav2011

its_phil wrote: »

Agree with everything you said bar the Fionn Carr comment at the end.

Carr went backwards leaving Connacht and I think he was well worth a place in the Irish squad at a couple of stages of his time here and just because it hasn't worked out at Leinster doesn't mean he wasnt a very good candidate to play for Ireland at Connacht.

Did he go backwards after leaving, or did he find that he wasn't up to the top level and was better suited to being the big fish in a small pond where everything went through him?

At very least a bit of both imo.

Podge_irl

Fireball07 wrote: »

I know he's played more than Jones, but I'm interested in the number? Jones has been injured tbf.

Nothing new there.

Seemingly Henshaw has started 5 games and come on in 3. I wouldn't be suggesting him if there wasn't an issue with available full backs.

Is he better then Hurley? Well he's been better from what I've seen of both this season. I think Hurley is a decent player, but that's all he'll ever be. There will be a sizeable drop to whoever comes after Earls - it may as well be the young player with great potential.

I don't want to focus too much on Henshaw - I think he has the potential to be a cracking player, but he is obviously very inexperienced. I just would have liked to see at least one of the young Connacht backline in the squad. Instead their representation is Muldoon and McCarthy, both decent players but in positions of strength that are massively overloaded in the squad.

When we have a coach that's looking further ahead than the following week we'll see team sheets with Buckleys, Marmions, Jones', Marshalls, Gilroys etc.

Kidney is not ever going to be the guy that decides that its time to give someone a shot, that their inclusion isn't going to cost us a game, that we don't need to run the same players into the ground every time an Ireland squad is announced.

Until then though, we squabble over who he picks to supplement his nailed on 22s by holding tackle bags and 'getting involved' in training squads...

Utopia Parkway

Fireball07 wrote: »

But is Henshaw actually better than Hurley? I don't know...

Still very early days for Henshaw but he looks a lot more naturally talented than Hurley who in fairness is a game but limited player. He does have a large experience advantage over Henshaw though naturally enough.

Fireball07

I suppose Henshaw should start ahead of Hurley for the Fiji game.


However, if Earls wasn't fit enough to play against SA, I'd choose Hurley ahead of Henshaw for that game. (Possibly Bowe ahead of both)

thomond2006

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

If Henshaw were a Munster player and was included in the Irish squad, the accusations of a Munster bias would be drowning out all other discussion on this thread. Similarly, if Henderson was a Munster player we'd have a similar influx of the tinfoil hat brigade with their pitchforks out.

If my aunt had balls...

Podge_irl

Fireball07 wrote: »

However, if Earls wasn't fit enough to play against SA, I'd choose Hurley ahead of Henshaw for that game. (Possibly Bowe ahead of both)

I could get along with that line of thought. I'd probably prefer Bowe or even Gilroy ahead of either. I get the experience thing, and I don't think Hurley is a bad player but he's reached his level imo.

TheKeenMachine

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

They don't but there is a definite case to be made that if there is a marginal call is to be made between a Connacht player and a player from one of the other provinces that the nod will nearly always go for the Munster, Leinster or Ulster player.

In other years the excuse could be made that Connacht players weren't playing at the highest level in the HEC but that excuse can't be used anymore.

If the squad was picked purely on form this season then a strong argument could be made that 3 of those young Connacht backs deserve a place in the Ireland squad. Now squads are never picked purely on form but for not one of them to be involved is a bit disappointing from their perspective.

I personally would have picked McSharry but it is definitely understandable that Kidney didn't pick him.
Re the 50:50 calls it is only natural that a player from Leinster, Munster or Ulster would be picked ahead of a Connacht player. Firstly, the more players from one team the better, as they will be used to playing with each other. Secondly, and more importantly, the fact of the matter is, for all the talk of good form, Connacht are doing significantly worse than the other provinces this season.
Think of it this way: if you were coach of the Spanish football team, when it came down to a 50:50 call would you pick a Barcelona player or a Real Betis player?

Cpt_Blackbeard

thomond2006 wrote: »

If my aunt had balls...

The last page of posts contained numerous posts about Kilcoyne and Buckley's Ireland prospects were their clubs swapped. I was merely continuing in that vain.

When Kidney picks a Munster player, it is attributed to bias. When he picks a player from the remaining provinces, its because they deserved it.

thomond2006

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The last page of posts contained numerous posts about Kilcoyne and Buckley's Ireland prospects were their clubs swapped. I was merely continuing in that vain.

When Kidney picks a Munster player, it is attributed to bias. When he picks a player from the remaining provinces, its because they deserved it.

I don't think there's much between either player tbh. IMO the accusation of bias comes from the ridiculous and incessant retention of ROG by Kidney.

Teferi

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The last page of posts contained numerous posts about Kilcoyne and Buckley's Ireland prospects were their clubs swapped. I was merely continuing in that vain.

When Kidney picks a Munster player, it is attributed to bias. When he picks a player from the remaining provinces, its because they deserved it.

Can you please stop your bitter diatribe.

Lets look at someone like Zebo - he was pretty much given caps over players who were better than him at the time. Kidney got lucky and Zebo has been playing class this season but last season Zebo arguably didn't deserve a call up over other players.

There is a pattern here. You shouldn't be surprised that people believe Kidney has a bias.

Fireball07

Podge_irl wrote: »

I could get along with that line of thought. I'd probably prefer Bowe or even Gilroy ahead of either. I get the experience thing, and I don't think Hurley is a bad player but he's reached his level imo.

I agree with you in general and I did think of Gilroy, but to be honest, I would be more comfortable with Hurley at full-back in a big game than Gilroy. Gilroy hasn't really played there enough for my liking.

leftleg

thomond2006 wrote: »

I don't think there's much between either player tbh. IMO the accusation of bias comes from the ridiculous and incessant retention of ROG by Kidney.

its not so much this season but we have had three seasons of it.

When you quack for three years you get called a duck

jamiedav2011

thomond2006 wrote: »

I don't think there's much between either player tbh. IMO the accusation of bias comes from the ridiculous and incessant retention of ROG by Kidney.

And his handling of DOC (albeit worth his place on current form), MOD, Murray, Buckley, Zebo, Archer, POM.

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The last page of posts contained numerous posts about Kilcoyne and Buckley's Ireland prospects were their clubs swapped. I was merely continuing in that vain.

When Kidney picks a Munster player, it is attributed to bias. When he picks a player from the remaining provinces, its because they deserved it.

Well what do you think, if Buckley was playing for Munster and Kilcoyne for Connacht, who do you think would have been picked? Come on, an honest answer.

leftleg

But as some have hinted here: if DK scores a grand slam this season with minimum squad building, its all good in the hood.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Teferi wrote: »

Can you please stop your bitter diatribe.

Lets look at someone like Zebo - he was pretty much given caps over players who were better than him at the time. Kidney got lucky and Zebo has been playing class this season but last season Zebo arguably didn't deserve a call up over other players.

There is a pattern here. You shouldn't be surprised that people believe Kidney has a bias.

Simon Zebo: Played: 23; Tries: 12
Craig Gilroy: Played: 29; Tries: 6
Dave Kearney: Played: 22; Tries: 3

Zebo was clearly the worst player and had the lowest potential...

If anything Kidney's decision to back Zebo has only been backed by Zebo's form this season.

jamiedav2011

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Simon Zebo: Played: 23; Tries: 12
Craig Gilroy: Played: 29; Tries: 6
Dave Kearney: Played: 22; Tries: 3

Zebo was clearly the worst player and had the lowest potential...

If anything Kidney's decision to back Zebo has only been backed by Zebo's form this season.

Yes as we all know, the job of an international winger is merely to score tries.
That's why Fionn Carr...oh, wait...

Nobody's disputing that Zebo should be in this squad, though his selection last season was a far closer decision, with Gilroy and Kearney in better form and offering a more rounded game.

It's not nearly as simple as you'd like to make it.

Foxtrol

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

And his handling of DOC (albeit worth his place on current form), MOD, Murray, Buckley, Zebo, Archer, POM.

You can add Leamy, Horan and Hayes to that list.

Fireball07

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

And his handling of DOC (albeit worth his place on current form), MOD, Murray, Buckley, Zebo, Archer, POM.

I think it's not all down to a Munster bias, but to a familiarity bias.

For example, DOC was keeping Ryan out of the team, another Munster player. (I get Tuohy wasn't being included either but it seemed to be because he likes DOC).

Zebo did get a jump up but wasn't Dave Kearney including in the match 22 for the 6N ahead of him?

Then there are the likes of D'Arcy and Wallace (in the past too). Obviously there are more Munster players included (TOL, Buckley, ROG, etc) but he did coach Munster so that's always going to be likely.

ironingbored

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Kilcoyne deserves to be in the squad. Take off the tinfoil hats.

I don't necessarily disagree that he deserves to be there.

But strangely enough Dk took an age to pick Healy and Ross eventually.

Foxtrol

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Simon Zebo: Played: 23; Tries: 12
Craig Gilroy: Played: 29; Tries: 6
Dave Kearney: Played: 22; Tries: 3

Zebo was clearly the worst player and had the lowest potential...

If anything Kidney's decision to back Zebo has only been backed by Zebo's form this season.

Fionn Carr one of the top try scorers for a few seasons and Dowling was starting for Ireland ahead of him. (Actually throw Dowling on that list as well).

Cpt_Blackbeard

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Yes as we all know, the job of an international winger is merely to score tries.
That's why Fionn Carr...oh, wait...

Nobody's disputing that Zebo should be in this squad, though his selection last season was a far closer decision, with Gilroy and Kearney in better form and offering a more rounded game.

It's not nearly as simple as you'd like to make it.

I don't think Gilroy has a much more rounded game. His defense was similar to Zebo's and there was also the incident of his pace being exposed when he was beaten on the outside by a frontrow. Kearney had a more equally rounded game, but he doesn't/didn't approach Zebo as an attacking threat.

Teferi

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Simon Zebo: Played: 23; Tries: 12
Craig Gilroy: Played: 29; Tries: 6
Dave Kearney: Played: 22; Tries: 3

Zebo was clearly the worst player and had the lowest potential...

If anything Kidney's decision to back Zebo has only been backed by Zebo's form this season.

Nope. Kidney got lucky.

Zebo was average in every aspect of his game other than going forward last year.