Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Foxtrol

Teferi wrote: »

Nope. Kidney got lucky.

Zebo was average in every aspect of his game other than going forward last year.

Yeah, it's typical Capt to point to the one Munster young player that Kidney fast tracked that has kicked on while ignoring those who have stagnated or regressed.

jamiedav2011

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I don't think Gilroy has a much more rounded game. His defense was similar to Zebo's and there was also the incident of his pace being exposed when he was beaten on the outside by a frontrow. Kearney had a more equally rounded game, but he doesn't/didn't approach Zebo as an attacking threat.

Right well I'm not going to argue the merits of the three, that's your opinion which is valid and that's fine.

However, my point, which surely you can see is that the call to call up Zebo over two fairly similar players at a similar stage from other provinces may have been a biased one, and we can frame this quite easily in his previous fancy for Munster players over similar counterparts.

Again, nobody is saying that Kilcoyne, Zebo, or indeed POM shouldn't be there, indeed they are all good players, but the balance of contentious decisions seems to go southward for Kidney. Surely you can agree to that?

Tox56

In the Irish Wolfhounds and Ireland v Barbarians games in 2012 Zebo started both, but was twice outshone by his fellow winger (Gilroy in Barbarians game and Kearney in Wolfhounds game). Both Kearney and Gilroy would have made very good cases for MOTM in those games, there isn't much more they could have done but Kidney was having none of it.

maddness

Anthony Foley is now Irelands defence coach.....WTF????

Cpt_Blackbeard

Tox56 wrote: »

Well what do you think, if Buckley was playing for Munster and Kilcoyne for Connacht, who do you think would have been picked? Come on, an honest answer.

I haven't seen much of Connacht, so I'm not in a great place to say tbh. From what I've seen Kilcoyne deserves to be ahead of Buckley. Were the clubs switched, I'd probably be calling for Buckley as I'd have had more chances to see him impress.

Connacht players in general suffer from being big fishes in a small pond; any good performances stand out so the assumption is made that they are better than they are. See Carr, Cronin, Hagan and Keatley.

Fireball07

maddness wrote: »

Anthony Foley is now a defence coach.....WTF????

He's been doing it for Munster? It's hardly completely ridiculous.

irishbucsfan

Half-fit Denis Leamy over Sean O'Brien (who was on his way to being crowned European Player of the Year

John Hayes over Mike Ross.

There are more, but I just don't really care any more. He's nearly gone.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I haven't seen much of Connacht, so I'm not in a great place to say tbh. From what I've seen Kilcoyne deserves to be ahead of Buckley.

This makes about this much sense

Cpt_Blackbeard

Teferi wrote: »

Nope. Kidney got lucky.

Zebo was average in every aspect of his game other than going forward last year.

There's no chance of reasonable discussion with someone who would rather attribute Kidney's pick vindicating their selection to luck, than Kidney actually making the right call.

irishbucsfan

maddness wrote: »

Anthony Foley is now a defence coach.....WTF????

Well, he's been Munster's defense coach for 3 seasons now...

its_phil

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

Secondly, and more importantly, the fact of the matter is, for all the talk of good form, Connacht are doing significantly worse than the other provinces this season.

I wouldn't call one win worse than Munster significantly worse

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

Fionn Carr one of the top try scorers for a few seasons and Dowling was starting for Ireland ahead of him. (Actually throw Dowling on that list as well).

Kidney got Carr correctly. Carr can't get a start in an injury riven Leinster. Ian Dowling was the starting winger for two Heineken Cup finals. He also had a terrific game against New Zealand a few months before that tour.

Carr was brought to the Churchill Cup where he got his chance with the likes of Fergus McFadden, Johnny Sexton & Felix Jones.

Foxtrol

Fireball07 wrote: »

He's been doing it for Munster? It's hardly completely ridiculous.

Doing it for Munster... what a coincidence :rolleyes:

(It could actually work out but I think they would have been better putting Kiss back to defense & getting in a fresh attack coach)

Cpt_Blackbeard

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Great input as always...

Keep it up :rolleyes:

I'm not well placed to talk about The Sharks as I haven't seen a minute of them this season. From what I've seen of Connacht they've been good.

On that basis, I think that Connacht are better than the Sharks.

jamiedav2011

jm08 wrote: »

Kidney got Carr correctly. Carr can't get a start in an injury riven Leinster. Ian Dowling was the starting winger for two Heineken Cup finals. He also had a terrific game against New Zealand a few months before that tour.

Carr was brought to the Churchill Cup where he got his chance with the likes of Fergus McFadden, Johnny Sexton & Felix Jones.

Exactly! Thanks jm08, you've just underlined the point that scoring tries is just a part of the makeup of an international winger. Just what I was trying to say, thanks for the great example.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

Kidney got Carr correctly. Carr can't get a start in an injury riven Leinster. Ian Dowling was the starting winger for two Heineken Cup finals. He also had a terrific game against New Zealand a few months before that tour.

Carr was brought to the Churchill Cup where he got his chance with the likes of Fergus McFadden, Johnny Sexton & Felix Jones.

How much attention was Kidney ever going to play for that, the two Ireland 'A' (or similar) fixtures last year, Zebo was totally outshone by his two main rivals and still selected.

Fireball07

Foxtrol wrote: »

Doing it for Munster... what a coincidence :rolleyes:

(It could actually work out but I think they would have been better putting Kiss back to defense & getting in a fresh attack coach)

I don't agree with a lot of what Kidney does, but again, it's not unusual at all for the head coach to bring in coaching staff he's worked with before. And he has brought in Feek aswell.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not well placed to talk about The Sharks as I haven't seen a minute of them this season. From what I've seen of Connacht they've been good.

On that basis, I think that Connacht are better than the Sharks.

I didn't say that I haven't seen Connacht play. Should I have to see all of everyone of their games before I'm allowed form an opinion?

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

Kidney got Carr correctly. Carr can't get a start in an injury riven Leinster. Ian Dowling was the starting winger for two Heineken Cup finals. He also had a terrific game against New Zealand a few months before that tour.

Carr was brought to the Churchill Cup where he got his chance with the likes of Fergus McFadden, Johnny Sexton & Felix Jones.

Devin Toner has one more Heineken Cup medal than POC :rolleyes:

Capt was trying to infer that Zebo was a better choice than Kearney & Gilroy because of his strike rate. The Carr example showed how Kidney had ignored this in the past but didnt this time.

I cant see any discernible pattern of logic behind Kidneys selections except for on a 50:50 call a Munster player general gets the nod. It could be coincidence but you cant deny it has happened.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Foxtrol wrote: »

It could actually work out but I think they would have been better putting Kiss back to defense & getting in a fresh attack coach

It would definitely have been the best decision, but the IRFU looks reluctant to bring in an outside specialist coaches into a management team who look to be on the way out.

irishbucsfan

Foxtrol wrote: »

Doing it for Munster... what a coincidence :rolleyes:

(It could actually work out but I think they would have been better putting Kiss back to defense & getting in a fresh attack coach)

I think it's a great call. Munster's defense looks great under Foley, better than it did under McGahan, who he took it off, and better than Ireland's did last season while Kiss still had it.

There aren't many attack coaches around, this move (it's temporary remember) seems like a pretty strong use of resources to me.

Same with Feek coming in. Considering the IRFU f*cked up the hiring of Cuttita we needed someone to help with our scrummaging.

Just because Kidney gets a few things wrong doesn't mean he gets everything wrong.

jm08

its_phil wrote: »

I wouldn't call one win worse than Munster significantly worse

Most the top teams (Ospreys, Leinster, Musnter) in the Rabo rotate their best players when playing Connacht, whereas they will have full strength teams when playing each other.

Ulster nilled Connacht in Ravehill, whereas they scraped a win against Munster.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

It would definitely have been the best decision, but the IRFU looks reluctant to being in an outside specialist coaches into a management team who look to be on the way out.

I actually think that no coach wants to get involved with a sinking ship, especially considering the probability of a major change in the setup within the next 7 months (209 days).

0 job security, 0 direction, 0 impetus to join really.

Foxtrol

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think it's a great call. Munster's defense looks great under Foley, better than it did under McGahan, who he took it off, and better than Ireland's did last season while Kiss still had it.

There aren't many attack coaches around, this move (it's temporary remember) seems like a pretty strong use of resources to me.

Same with Feek coming in. Considering the IRFU f*cked up the hiring of Cuttita we needed someone to help with our scrummaging.

Just because Kidney gets a few things wrong doesn't mean he gets everything wrong.

I thought Foley was Munster defense coach before he took over the forwards & then did both rolls (could be wrong). I though the Irish defense was good before Kiss started double jobbing.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

Most the top teams (Ospreys, Leinster, Musnter) in the Rabo rotate their best players when playing Connacht, whereas they will have full strength teams when playing each other.

Ulster nilled Connacht in Ravehill, whereas they scraped a win against Munster.

If anything the Ulster team that played Munster was worse than the one that played Connacht

jm08

Foxtrol wrote: »

Devin Toner has one more Heineken Cup medal than POC :rolleyes:

Capt was trying to infer that Zebo was a better choice than Kearney & Gilroy because of his strike rate. The Carr example showed how Kidney had ignored this in the past but didnt this time.

I cant see any discernible pattern of logic behind Kidneys selections except for on a 50:50 call a Munster player general gets the nod. It could be coincidence but you cant deny it has happened.

Has Devin Toner being the starting lock in 3 HC finals?

You need at least one winger who can score tries/good finisher - Bowe was injured & Earls was earmarked for the centre.

One thing which Zebo has over all of them is his ability chasing restarts and a decent boot.

irishbucsfan

Foxtrol wrote: »

I thought Foley was Munster defense coach before he took over the forwards & then did both rolls (could be wrong). I though the Irish defense was good before Kiss started double jobbing.

Yeah but that was a while ago now. McGahan was the last person in charge of it.

Ireland's defense was excellent under Kiss. But he's needed in attack now.

Podge_irl

Tox56 wrote: »

If anything the Ulster team that played Munster was worse than the one that played Connacht

It was definitely worse.




Kiss isn't needed in attack. An attack coach is needed in attack.

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

If anything the Ulster team that played Munster was worse than the one that played Connacht

Munster were missing a lot of their first choice players as it being the first game of the season for some.

Connacht were nilled.

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

You need at least one winger who can score tries/good finisher - Bowe was injured & Earls was earmarked for the centre.

One thing which Zebo has over all of them is his ability chasing restarts and a decent boot.

So why shouldn't Carr have been selected ahead of Dowling then?

Can you not see the inconsistency in DK's selection? Everytime you argue for Zebo you're making points for why Carr should have been picked ahead of Dowling and visa versa