Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Almaviva

dtpc191991 wrote: »

Why is ROG still in it when it would be clear to an amoeba with a mental health illness that Jackson is miles ahead in quality, playing well and starting top level club games.

Agree. And with Madigan better still than Jackson, there is simply no case whatsoever for ROG's inclusion.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Do you not agree that Trimble is a limited player? He is a very strong runner and defender, but he has no more strings to his bow. He doesn't have any kicking or aerial game and I wouldn't put him down as a great reader of the game either.

jm suggested that Gilroy being kept out of the Ulster side by Trimble was in effect a sleight on Gilroy's abilities.

That same player (Trimble - 48 caps!!) been selected on the wing for Ireland ahead of Lions (Fitzgerald, Murphy and Earls) and more recently the up-and-comings.

In effect, sleighting Fitzgerald, Earls, Murphy and all of the young guns with the same tag surely?
______________________

If you've followed a logic process here that makes sense, please return to the start of the post and repeat reading.

If you reach here a second time and are not lost by the absence of logic, please pick Chris Henry to start at #7 against SA Declan, and enjoy your retirement.

Podge_irl

I'm with the Captain here. Trimble is a limited player - he's good at what he does but that is largely hard, fast running and good defence. I would hope Gilroy gets ahead of him in the next year or so.

Fishooks12

Lads, just curious as to when Trimble kept Fitzgerald or Earls out of the Irish team? What games ect

Fireball07

Almaviva wrote: »

Agree. And with Madigan better still than Jackson, there is simply no case whatsoever for ROG's inclusion.

Taking aside the ROG factor (I think we're all agreed on that), do you think Madigan is better than Jackson? I thought so but I think Jackson's all-round game might be a bit better. Really impressed with Jackson so far this season. Madigan's been at full-back a lot so it might be a bit unfair to judge him, I think his running threat is better, but I'd probably lean towards Jackson atm.

Still, it's good that we finally have lots of young, talented out-halves.



As for Trimble, I get that there was a different point being made but to actually discuss his merits... I've always liked him. There have been points in his career where he deserved to be starting for Ireland. He's a very solid player. However, he lacks a certain x factor and he's always been a bit up-and-down in his form. So as much as I like him, I'd have Bowe, Fitz, Earls and Zebo ahead of him on the wing. I expect Gilroy will overtake him before the end of the season, and possibly TOH, Conway and LOD in the next year or two.

brinty

Lads i have read about 20 pages and all people say is DK is biased toward Munster Players(i think every munster player included should be dropped/not included according to some posters)....blah blah blah..and this player from leinster/ulster should be in ahead of them etc etc...could i ask an honest question...realistically would people be happy if DK dispensed with the services of every Munster player in the squad..and who should be there in their place...

TBF Kidney might have a blind spot for some Munster players but he has it for Leinster and Ulster players too...aka D'arcy, P Wallace, Court, Boss

I said it previously during the NZ tour if the irish team was made up of 23 leinster and /or Ulster players..DK would've picked the wrong 23 players...I think he's in a no win situation with the majority

Also on a side note did anyone notice the split of the squad..10 Ulster players...9 Leinster and Munster plus 2 connacht...

This is not a troll lads..just trying to bring a bot of perspective..

Cpt_Blackbeard

Deleted User wrote: »

jm suggested that Gilroy being kept out of the Ulster side by Trimble was in effect a sleight on Gilroy's abilities.

That same player (Trimble - 48 caps!!) been selected on the wing for Ireland ahead of Lions (Fitzgerald, Murphy and Earls) and more recently the up-and-comings.

In effect, sleighting Fitzgerald, Earls, Murphy and all of the young guns with the same tag surely?
______________________

If you've followed a logic process here that makes sense, please return to the start of the post and repeat reading.

If you reach here a second time and are not lost by the absence of logic, please pick Chris Henry to start at #7 against SA Declan, and enjoy your retirement.

Are you aware that a players form can fluctuate?

I'd see it as a negative that Gilroy can't force himself ahead of an average Trimble, just as it is a negative that McFadden can't get ahead of a limited/ageing D'Arcy. Is that a sleight against every player D'Arcy has ever been selected ahead of for Ireland/Lions?

thebaz

between Kidney and Trapattoni , i don't know who's worse

Why wasn't I born in Brazil or New Zealand

thomond2006

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Lads, just curious as to when Trimble kept Fitzgerald or Earls out of the Irish team? What games ect

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/mar/19/six-nations-2011-ireland-england-player-ratings

Ireland vs England 2011, Trimble was on the left wing with Fitzgerald dropped out of the 22. Earls was moved from 11 to 15.

Also, Trimble went to the World Cup and Fitzgerald didn't. Trimble was the form player of the RWC warmups.

Fishooks12

thomond2006 wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/mar/19/six-nations-2011-ireland-england-player-ratings

Ireland vs England 2011, Trimble was on the left wing with Fitzgerald dropped out of the 22. Earls was moved from 11 to 15.

Also, Trimble went to the World Cup and Fitzgerald didn't. Trimble was the form player of the RWC warmups.

How did I forget about Fitz getting dropped for the WC!

Just goes to show how good he was when he was playing for Leinster that year after it though

Fireball07

thebaz wrote: »

between Kidney and Trapattoni , i don't know who's worse

Why wasn't I born in Brazil or New Zealand

Both Brazil and NZ have had equally frustrating coaches..... Dunga was at least as frustrating for Brazil with his selections as Kidney/Trap are for us

Fireball07

brinty wrote: »

Lads i have read about 20 pages and all people say is DK is biased toward Munster Players(i think every munster player included should be dropped/not included according to some posters)....blah blah blah..and this player from leinster/ulster should be in ahead of them etc etc...could i ask an honest question...realistically would people be happy if DK dispensed with the services of every Munster player in the squad..and who should be there in their place...

TBF Kidney might have a blind spot for some Munster players but he has it for Leinster and Ulster players too...aka D'arcy, P Wallace, Court, Boss

I said it previously during the NZ tour if the irish team was made up of 23 leinster and /or Ulster players..DK would've picked the wrong 23 players...I think he's in a no win situation with the majority

Also on a side note did anyone notice the split of the squad..10 Ulster players...9 Leinster and Munster plus 2 connacht...

This is not a troll lads..just trying to bring a bot of perspective..

I don't actually think people are complaining about the Munster players in this case....most of the complaints are made against decisions made before.

The Kilcoyne V Buckley one and possibly Murray V Marshall/Marmion are the only ones really being raised and the first is at least 50-50 while I think Murray is actually a good player and deserves his spot. (There's obviously ROG too)

People are more complaining about Zebo last year, POM starting ahead of Henry, TOL, Mushy, Murray's jump up, etc. not really about the ones here. It's more about the perceived anti-Connacht bias this time (which isn't totally unfair, I think)

jm08

thomond2006 wrote: »

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/mar/19/six-nations-2011-ireland-england-player-ratings

Ireland vs England 2011, Trimble was on the left wing with Fitzgerald dropped out of the 22. Earls was moved from 11 to 15.

Also, Trimble went to the World Cup and Fitzgerald didn't. Trimble was the form player of the RWC warmups.

Trimble was selected ahead of Earls v Italy (6Ns Croke Park, 2010). Earls was on the bench. The following week against France, Earls started and Trimble was dropped from the 22 with Paddy Wallace brought onto the bench instead.

its_phil

AngeGal wrote: »

I'm fairly certain Connacht fans in general are the least likely of any province to have their priorities wrong on this. Although given the shambolic treatment Connacht regularly receives from the IRFU, it would make more sense for them to do so than any other province.

I'm sorry but does your second point not rule out your first?

Please don't start on IRFU vs Connacht stuff either let it stay far far away.

Clegg

Fitzgeralds bad form is what kept him out of the Ireland squad.

He had a poor 6 Nations at FB in 2011. He looked handy going forward but was very poor under the high ball.

I had no real problem with him getting dropped. When he's on form he's one of the best players in the country. But he was playing so poorly that he deserved to be dropped.

Edit: And his terrible run of injuries kept him out too.

Swan Curry

Clegg wrote: »

Fitzgeralds bad form is what kept him out of the Ireland squad.

He had a poor 6 Nations at FB in 2011. He looked handy going forward but was very poor under the high ball.

I had no real problem with him getting dropped. When he's on form he's one of the best players in the country. But he was playing so poorly that he deserved to be dropped.

If only that applied to some other players in the squad...

Teferi

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

There's no chance of reasonable discussion with someone who would rather attribute Kidney's pick vindicating their selection to luck, than Kidney actually making the right call.

When has Kidney made the right call regarding players?

Was it persisting with an out of form TOL pre-world cup?
Was it persisting with an out of form DOC last year?
Is it persisting with ROG now?

Kidney got lucky with Zebo. It was bound to happen eventually.

totallegend

Gerry Thornley in today's Times:

The Thornmeister wrote:

Kilcoyne must be pushing Tom Court close as back-up to Cian Healy.

Gerry, if you're reading this: get up the yard ourra dat.

Tox56

Just give it up, Kidney will be gone in a few months anyway. A more interesting discussion would be who is going to replace him, but that's a bit more complicated.

Tox56

totallegend wrote: »

Gerry Thornley in today's Times:


Gerry, if you're reading this: get up the yard ourra dat.

Why is he even trying to disguise insider knowledge as opinion.

They (Marshall and Henderson) look like longer-term investments, although Kilcoyne must be pushing Tom Court close as back-up to Cian Healy.

Looks like the two Ulster lads will be holding tackle bags for the next few weeks.

Also, if Felix Jones manages to make it through the game v Zebre without breaking down he'll be called up:

it would strongly suggest he’s first in line of those not named yesterday.

He clearly has insider info, why doesn't he just come out and say it??

leftleg

Tox56 wrote: »

Why is he even trying to disguise insider knowledge as opinion.



Looks like the two Ulster lads will be holding tackle bags for the next few weeks.

Also, if Felix Jones manages to make it through the game v Zebre without breaking down he'll be called up:



He clearly has insider info, why doesn't he just come out and say it??

Cause he needs to sell papers tmw as well. Give the public the info in dribbles. Sure kidneys probably given him the scores and everything last night over that candle lit dinner they had together.

totallegend

totallegend wrote: »

Gerry Thornley in today's Times:


Gerry, if you're reading this: get up the yard ourra dat.

but he is pushing Court for the loosehead spot. He's a young starting loosehead prop. Isn't he? Or is WdP the favoured LH at Munster? Nothing wrong with some healthy competition to be fair. Court v Kilcoyne v Buckley for backup to Healy is pretty decent depth to be honest. Hoping they all get fair process

I think people really really understimate Court as a LH. He's actually a really very decent player.

His performances at TH have coloured people's view of him massively though. Ask Cian Healy to move to TH against an English scrum and see how he fares, I doubt it would be pretty.

totallegend

Deleted User wrote: »

but he is pushing Court for the loosehead spot. He's a young starting loosehead prop. Isn't he? Or is WdP the favoured LH at Munster? Nothing wrong with some healthy competition to be fair. Court v Kilcoyne v Buckley for backup to Healy is pretty decent depth to be honest. Hoping they all get fair process

I think people really really understimate Court as a LH. He's actually a really very decent player.

Exactly; Court has been a top-quality loosehead for a couple of years now. Kilcoyne has had two good showings for Munster. I'm only delighted to have young props coming through, I'm just wondering what the thought process is that says Kilcoyne is pushing for a bench spot but Henderson and Marshall are just there as filler. This being Thornley, he's probably well informed as to what DK is thinking.

Deleted User wrote: »

His performances at TH have coloured people's view of him massively though. Ask Cian Healy to move to TH against an English scrum and see how he fares, I doubt it would be pretty.

In fact, deep down I'm afraid that Kilcoyne will get a bench spot, not at the expense of Court but alongside him, i.e. that DK will go into battle against South Africa and Argentina with Court as the backup TH. Luckily neither SA or Arg have any pedigree of scrummaging.

bilston

brinty wrote: »

Also on a side note did anyone notice the split of the squad..10 Ulster players...9 Leinster and Munster plus 2 connacht...

This is not a troll lads..just trying to bring a bot of perspective..

Firstly the pedant in me would point out that there are 10 Leinster players but whatever about that the breakdown for the actual team for SA will be interesting.

My guess is Munster (6), Leinster (6), Ulster (3)...not that it matters where the players are from it's about getting the best team onto the pitch.

But you're right Deccie does find it hard to get much right in the eyes of the rugby public, but this is what happens when you oversee a disapointing run of results. The only comeback for Kidney now is 3 out of 3 in November and a Grand Slam IMO. I think that's the reality of the situation and actually given the players we have and given the state of the other sides and given we have England and France at home in 2013 I think it's perfectly possible...certainly with regards to the Autumn Internationals 3 out of 3 is an absolute must given a likely inexperienced Boks squad and from what i ead today a decimated Pumas squad due to some two player per club rule from the French.

jacothelad

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

The last page of posts contained numerous posts about Kilcoyne and Buckley's Ireland prospects were their clubs swapped. I was merely continuing in that vain.

When Kidney picks a Munster player, it is attributed to bias. When he picks a player from the remaining provinces, its because they deserved it.

At last, now you understand.

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Simon Zebo: Played: 23; Tries: 12
Craig Gilroy: Played: 29; Tries: 6
Dave Kearney: Played: 22; Tries: 3

Zebo was clearly the worst player and had the lowest potential...

If anything Kidney's decision to back Zebo has only been backed by Zebo's form this season.

Would that be the same Zebo who has played 38 games for Munster and scored 16 tries and the same Gilroy who has played 42 for Ulster and scored 15. Did he also score 2 for the Ireland XV while Simon scored 1. Shall we call it 16 / 16.
Zebo looks like a real star in the making but Gilroy's claims are pretty good as well. Compare the treatment of the two. While Zebo thoroughly deserves his place, as does Kilcoyne, there is little doubt in my mind that Kidney is tied by his apron strings to all things Munster. His continual selection of fading Munster players - even for the game against Connacht - tells the tale along with his rapid promotion on scant grounds for Murray and even POM.

jacothelad

Podge_irl wrote: »

Fair point. I don't think Ireland's attack has been great of late but he's been double jobbing so that would have had an impact.

The whole coaching thing is a mess though. The defence coach is now attack coach, the scrum coach that stepped down is being brought back in. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

In the last 6 games against meaningful opposition and excluding Scotland and Italy, Ireland have scored 6 tries and conceded 19. As Kidney said yesterday, 'Things have been going well this year.'

.ak

Podge_irl wrote: »

The whole coaching thing is a mess though. The defence coach is now attack coach, the scrum coach that stepped down is being brought back in. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

The Feek thing is really annoying from a Leinster POV. Sometimes I wish the provinces would go private, and stop being plundered needlessly.

Theta

.ak wrote: »

The Feek thing is really annoying from a Leinster POV. Sometimes I wish the provinces would go private, and stop being plundered needlessly.

Why? As much as I love Leinster the national team should take highest priority and if they can get help from the provinces the should no?

.ak

Theta wrote: »

Why? As much as I love Leinster the national team should take highest priority and if they can get help from the provinces the should no?

There's getting help and then there's plundering resources because of bad management. Ireland should have their own scrum coach.

totallegend

Theta wrote: »

Why? As much as I love Leinster the national team should take highest priority and if they can get help from the provinces the should no?

But at what stage does the national team setup have to take some responsibilty for sorting themselves out? It's now 7 months.since Twickenham and still no scrum coach.