Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

GerM

Fireball07 wrote: »

I know a lot of people won't agree with me but:

You'd be surprised. As Dan has said, there's a real push behind Jones based on about 8 appearances in the Pro12 and Amlin. He looked like a very exciting player with pace and a running threat which tends to make him a crowd favourite. He looks talented but he still falls into the category of potential star currently. He still might be called upon though because we're a little bit screwed at 15.

danthefan

él statutorio wrote: »

He has played 20 mins in a HC game and 80 mins against Zebre (and scored). He mightn't have set the world alright but it's hardly shaky form.

Fair enough, didn't realise he'd played so little. Go back to last season when he got over the injury that put him out of the RWC, again didn't set the world on fire. I haven't seen anything that suggests international fullback tbh.

Having said that if he gets a chance then I hope he goes well, obviously.

Hype710

Hard not to sympathise with Jones in respect of his injuries, but I'd concurr that he doesn't justify selection. Even when he started ahead of Geordan Murphy against France in the Aviva in the World Cup warmups I didn't feel it was justified on the back of a few ML games and a decent chip and chase against France the week before. He was actually quite poor in the Aviva then before his unfortunate injury.

Larbre34

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I dunno, But according to the poster above he's classier at something

Bigger, stronger, faster, higher. He might lack a bit of footwork but he's a far better modern 12 than Wallace.

Scioch

Fireball07 wrote: »

But Downey is a 12, not a 13? Not to mention Cave is definitely better than Downey in his own position (not to mention Downey has a broken hand).


Zebo has been in fantastic form this season, Trimble played excellently the last day and has been doing well but Zebo has been Munster's best player. Extremely dangerous in attack, safe as a house under the high ball and has a monster left boot. Defensively, Trimble has the edge...he is more physical and more experienced, no doubt about that. However, I don't know whether that's going to make that much of a difference here...I'd pick Zebo tbh, he's able to look after himself.

Zebo although playing well is relatively untested at this level. Considering we are missing Kearney and BOD I'd go with the all round better player which is Trimble. Not an ideal time to be looking over huge assets like Trimble in favour of a little bit of flare.

Fireball07

Larbre34 wrote: »

Bigger, stronger, faster, higher. He might lack a bit of footwork but he's a far better modern 12 than Wallace.

But Wallace is definitely "classier". Much more skilled than Downey, who is useful but not classy. Wallace, Marshall, Hanrahan...I'd call them classy. Downey, not so much.

In any case, I don't think Downey is any better than Wallace.

Scioch wrote: »

Zebo although playing well is relatively untested at this level. Considering we are missing Kearney and BOD I'd go with the all round better player which is Trimble. Not an ideal time to be looking over huge assets like Trimble in favour of a little bit of flare.

Again, I disagree. I think the most in-form player should play in a close battle like this... I like Trimble and everything but I think Zebo has more to his game.

Scioch

Fireball07 wrote: »

Again, I disagree. I think the most in-form player should play in a close battle like this... I like Trimble and everything but I think Zebo has more to his game.

Most in form ? Zebo standing out in Munster doesnt mean he's in better form than Trimble. Trimble is playing is an exceptionally good team (which are playing at a level beyond what Munster or Leinster have achieved so far) and is still standing out as a great player in all aspects of his game. He's looked the better winger of himself, Gilroy and Bowe so far this year. There is no conceivable way you can think Zebo has more to his game than Trimble. He's got a bit more pace and thats about it.

And considering we will be missing BOD, have Earls at FB we need the better more solid player in the backline to shore it up.

GerM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Bigger, stronger, faster, higher. He might lack a bit of footwork but he's a far better modern 12 than Wallace.

James Downey is notoriously slow.

He is bigger and stronger than others. He makes front on tackles very well and hits hard. That's where his strengths end. He has poor footwork, agility, handling overall and pace. He's good at crash ball but that is far from what a the modern 12 should be. He can do a job up to a certain point but has no business being in an international side

phog

Scioch wrote: »

Most in form ? Zebo standing out in Munster doesnt mean he's in better form than Trimble. Trimble is playing is an exceptionally good team (which are playing at a level beyond what Munster or Leinster have achieved so far) and is still standing out as a great player in all aspects of his game. He's looked the better winger of himself, Gilroy and Bowe so far this year. There is no conceivable way you can think Zebo has more to his game than Trimble. He's got a bit more pace and thats about it.

And considering we will be missing BOD, have Earls at FB we need the better more solid player in the backline to shore it up.

The only full game I've seen of Trimble this year was the game against Munster in Ravenhill and I thought he didnt stand out that night.

jm08

Scioch wrote: »

Zebo although playing well is relatively untested at this level. Considering we are missing Kearney and BOD I'd go with the all round better player which is Trimble. Not an ideal time to be looking over huge assets like Trimble in favour of a little bit of flare.

Not too sure about that. More experienced maybe and a strong tackler, but Trimble is poor under a high ball, can't kick and isn't as good a finisher as Zebo.

Fireball07

Scioch wrote: »

Most in form ? Zebo standing out in Munster doesnt mean he's in better form than Trimble. Trimble is playing is an exceptionally good team (which are playing at a level beyond what Munster or Leinster have achieved so far) and is still standing out as a great player in all aspects of his game. He's looked the better winger of himself, Gilroy and Bowe so far this year. There is no conceivable way you can think Zebo has more to his game than Trimble. He's got a bit more pace and thats about it.

And considering we will be missing BOD, have Earls at FB we need the better more solid player in the backline to shore it up.

Most in-form, yes. I would say that Zebo is the most in-form winger in the country atm. Munster have not been great but he has. Trimble is playing well, but not exceptionally and the overall form of the team does not mean that all their players are playing better than their Leinster and Munster counterparts.

He might be playing better than Bowe, but Bowe is never going to be dropped because we know he has class and will produce internationally. The difference between Zebo and Trimble is a lot less.

And as for having more to his game...Zebo has the potential to be a lot better than Trimble. He hasn't fulfilled it yet, but he's a more exciting attacking threat, got a better boot and arguably better under a high ball. Trimble is undoubtedly stronger in defence and a more physical player but not better imo.

As for the whole having BOD and Kearney out...that's a reason for leaving someone like D'Arcy in but not Trimble imo. I think Cave is a safe defender anyway, and Zebo will be okay.

Scioch

phog wrote: »

The only full game I've seen of Trimble this year was the game against Munster in Ravenhill and I thought he was piss poor that night.

Cant rightly remember the game but I think I have seen all Ulsters games so far and never thought he was piss poor in any of them. May have been one where he didnt stand out. But not standing out doesnt mean he's piss poor.

phog

Scioch wrote: »

Cant rightly remember the game but I think I have seen all Ulsters games so far and never thought he was piss poor in any of them. May have been one where he didnt stand out. But not standing out doesnt mean he's piss poor.

edited my post to say he didn't stand out!

Podge_irl

I was all aboard the Trimble ahead of Earls bandwagon for the RWC (because he should have been on form) and I was not even remotely convinced by Zebo last year and thought he had no business being on the NZ tour.

However, Zebo has improved his game massively this year. His positioning is better, his defence is better and he looks for the ball more. He needs to start for Ireland at the moment.

Scioch

jm08 wrote: »

Not too sure about that. More experienced maybe and a strong tackler, but Trimble is poor under a high ball, can't kick and isn't as good a finisher as Zebo.

H's not poor under the high ball, I'm not sure how far back that goes but I have heard it alot but seen a lot of evidence to the contrary.

Better finisher ? This came up with Earls too last year in the run up to the WC. Define finisher ? Trimble can make space, he can utilise space and he can finish as well as any other winger in Ireland. What he lacks is flash. But what he makes up for that with is a huge workrate while still retaining his attacking threat and excelling with his defensive presence.

Zebo is a great player and will be world class in future but he's not on the same level as Tribmle, Bowe, Earls, Fitz (when on form). He will be but he's not yet. And I'm all for giving the young guys their break but for this particular match I personally would select the better player.

Scioch

Podge_irl wrote: »

I was all aboard the Trimble ahead of Earls bandwagon for the RWC (because he should have been on form) and I was not even remotely convinced by Zebo last year and thought he had no business being on the NZ tour.

However, Zebo has improved his game massively this year. His positioning is better, his defence is better and he looks for the ball more. He needs to start for Ireland at the moment.

He needs international game time to develop sure, same as a lot of others. But I dont agree with fast tracking him to the starting spot as was done with Murray.

totallegend

Trimble is, at this point in time, a much better winger than Zebo. Zebo has improved massively but he does not deserve a start against the Boks.

Tox56

Don't really mind either way to be honest, both are deserving and it's a good problem to have.

jm08

Scioch wrote: »

H's not poor under the high ball, I'm not sure how far back that goes but I have heard it alot but seen a lot of evidence to the contrary.

Better finisher ? This came up with Earls too last year in the run up to the WC. Define finisher ? Trimble can make space, he can utilise space and he can finish as well as any other winger in Ireland. What he lacks is flash. But what he makes up for that with is a huge workrate while still retaining his attacking threat and excelling with his defensive presence.

Zebo is a great player and will be world class in future but he's not on the same level as Tribmle, Bowe, Earls, Fitz (when on form). He will be but he's not yet. And I'm all for giving the young guys their break but for this particular match I personally would select the better player.

OK - we'll say average under a high ball. Zebo is very good - watch him claim restarts. Zebo has a massive boot. I don't think I've ever seen Trimble kick anyway successfully and cringe when he goes to do it.

Better finisher - a player who is unstoppable anywhere near the line and with a good try scoring record. Going for the corner, they don't let themselves be tackled into touch and get crucial scores. Watch these highlights and you will get the idea. Watch how Zebo claims a highball competing with Gavin Duffy and scores a try.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAdbntjEwB8

totallegend

Probably worth pointing out that the games in which Zebo has shown his class have been against very weak teams, Trimble has been doing it at HC and international level for a long time.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

OK - we'll say average under a high ball. Zebo is very good - watch him claim restarts. Zebo has a massive boot. I don't think I've ever seen Trimble kick anyway successfully and cringe when he goes to do it.

Better finisher - a player who is unstoppable anywhere near the line and with a good try scoring record. Going for the corner, they don't let themselves be tackled into touch and get crucial scores. Watch these highlights and you will get the idea. Watch how Zebo claims a highball competing with Gavin Duffy and scores a try.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAdbntjEwB8

Youtube videos can prove anything, Trimble is a fine finisher:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbuFsNeOq8A&feature=relmfu

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIwJ-bahVWc

Swiwi

totallegend wrote: »

Trimble is, at this point in time, a much better winger than Zebo. Zebo has improved massively but he does not deserve a start against the Boks.

My 2c is that Trimble is the Zac Guildford of Irish wingers...impressive at provincial level but can't make the step up. I can't think of one international game where he has left his mark.

In saying that, he doesn't go to the Cook Islands in the off season, get completely smashed, and make a complete twat of himself.

But I'm not convinced Zebo is the answer. Maybe mad scientists can clone Tommy Bowe.

Fireball07

totallegend wrote: »

Probably worth pointing out that the games in which Zebo has shown his class have been against very weak teams, Trimble has been doing it at HC and international level for a long time.

Zebo was brilliant against both Leinster and Ospreys this season, by far Munster's best player in both games. He scored a hat-trick against Northampton last year in the HC.

I disagree strongly with saying he's only shown his class against very weak teams, that's the point really, he's come on an awful lot.


We all know what Trimble can do, a very solid player, on his day he's excellent.

totallegend

Fireball07 wrote: »

Zebo was brilliant against both Leinster and Ospreys this season, by far Munster's best player in both games. He scored a hat-trick against Northampton last year in the HC.

I disagree strongly with saying he's only shown his class against very weak teams, that's the point really, he's come on an awful lot.


We all know what Trimble can do, a very solid player, on his day he's excellent.

He has come on an awful lot, but no way would he be in the frame for internationals based on his game against Leinster and Ospreys. It's his showings against Racing and the mighty Edinburgh that have people talking about him.

Trimble is much more than solid

desertcircus

It's an embarrassment that following injury to a 33-year-old centre, the two options being most discussed (Downey and Cave) have a combined total of seven minutes of Test rugby in the last three years. No, scratch that: it's a disgrace. Well bloody done, everyone in the IRFU: we're now facing South Africa and Argentina to try to maintain our seeding for the World Cup, and our backline options are:

1. Shift our misfiring 12 to 13 and stick a crashball 12 inside him, with a winger who wants to play 13 playing 15;
2. Leave the misfiring 12 in place for continuity's sake, play a 13 with virtually zero Test experience in two incredibly important crunch matches, or:
3. Let the winger play at 13 and hope Felix Jones is as good as we thought he could be.

Succession planning in this country consists of throwing someone in at the deep end when every other possible alternative has been ruled out, and hoping it works out. We won't even learn from this: if Brian O'Driscoll and Paul O'Connell are fully fit for the whole of the Six Nations, will we see Dan Tuohy played against Scotland and Italy, along with Cave at thirteen? Maybe we'll see Declan Fitzpatrick pack down for one or both?

Will we ****.

The old soldiers will be played for every game they can manage, and when they're forced to retire by the accumulated weight of injuries, the IRFU will look around in panic as though it's a total shock to them that this might have happened. Unless something changes, Ross, O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Reddan, O'Gara, D'Arcy, O'Driscoll and possibly Best and Ferris will be gone by the time the next World Cup rolls around, and in every case nothing will have been done in advance to prepare for it. Serious gametime to test potential first teamers simply doesn't exist as a concept in the Irish national side, and it's infuriating and sickening.

Swiwi

totallegend wrote: »

He has come on an awful lot, but no way would he be in the frame for internationals based on his game against Leinster and Ospreys. It's his showings against Racing and the mighty Edinburgh that have people talking about him.

Trimble is much more than solid

I agree that with Trimble you get reliable. With Zebo you might get an amazing try, but you also might get an error from inexperience that costs a game. I guess it's a philosophical issue...

Fireball07

totallegend wrote: »

He has come on an awful lot, but no way would he be in the frame for internationals based on his game against Leinster and Ospreys. It's his showings against Racing and the mighty Edinburgh that have people talking about him.

Trimble is much more than solid

Well, actually, that's what made me think he was ready. Racing was another good one actually, our only player to come out with any credit. But after the Leinster game, I really thought he should be starting for Ireland, he was superb. It really showed how much he has improved in the last 12 months.

And I don't know about that, Trimble can be excellent, but he has had plenty of fairly average days too. In general, I would say he is a solid international player... that's not a criticism, not many players make it to that level.

Tox56

desertcircus wrote: »

It's an embarrassment that following injury to a 33-year-old centre, the two options being most discussed (Downey and Cave) have a combined total of seven minutes of Test rugby in the last three years. No, scratch that: it's a disgrace. Well bloody done, everyone in the IRFU: we're now facing South Africa and Argentina to try to maintain our seeding for the World Cup, and our backline options are:
.

To be fair he's one of the best outside centres ever to play the game, so in a country like Ireland (or any country for that matter) if he's fit, he's gonna start.

Swiwi

Tox56 wrote: »

To be fair he's one of the best outside centres ever to play the game, so in a country like Ireland (or any country for that matter) if he's fit, he's gonna start.

Agree++ Brian is one of those players you just have to pick if he's available. But there's no doubt that other 12s, 11s/14s etc could have been tried over the years.

Fireball07

Swiwi wrote: »

I agree that with Trimble you get reliable. With Zebo you might get an amazing try, but you also might get an error from inexperience that costs a game. I guess it's a philosophical issue...

Has Zebo cost Munster a game recently? Because I don't remember it.