Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Swiwi

Fireball07 wrote: »

Has Zebo cost Munster a game recently? Because I don't remember it.

No he hasn't. But SA are likely to place a great deal of pressure on him, their game is based around strangling an opposition with pressure, rather than blowing them off the park.

I have no problem with giving him a go - especially v SA where a loss will not harm Ireland's IRB ranking - and if he comes thru with flying colours, then he is identified as a keeper.

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

Probably worth pointing out that the games in which Zebo has shown his class have been against very weak teams, Trimble has been doing it at HC and international level for a long time.

Zebo is playing the same opposition (strong & week) as Trimble at club level and scoring tries against them. Comparing their provincial try scoring record (starts last and this Season).

Zebo: 25 starts. 15 trys.
Trimble: 23 starts. 9 trys (and Ulster played Aironi in Heineken Cup last year).

totallegend

Fireball07 wrote: »

Well, actually, that's what made me think he was ready. Racing was another good one actually, our only player to come out with any credit. But after the Leinster game, I really thought he should be starting for Ireland, he was superb. It really showed how much he has improved in the last 12 months.

And I don't know about that, Trimble can be excellent, but he has had plenty of fairly average days too. In general, I would say he is a solid international player... that's not a criticism, not many players make it to that level.

We'll have to agree to disagree so. I didn't think Zebo was THAT good against Leinster so I maintain that he hasn't shown it against top quality opposition.

jm08

Swiwi wrote: »

Agree++ Brian is one of those players you just have to pick if he's available. But there's no doubt that other 12s, 11s/14s etc could have been tried over the years.

Earls started at 13 for the last 6Ns as Brian had an op. The issue is with a lack of cover at fullback.

I think Earls will start at 13 and they are waiting to see how Felix Jones fares on Friday night.

desertcircus

If he's fit for a crunch game, absolutely. But against Scotland, or Italy? How many games has he played in where the result either wasn't in doubt or wasn't important?

His absence makes the Irish team hugely weaker, and we should have been making sure that we had a plan to minimise the loss, rather than flailing around for a solution when the inevitable happened.

Quint2010

Sorry but Trimble has not done it in a while in an Ireland jersey. Would love to see Zebo given the 11 shirt.

jm08

desertcircus wrote: »

If he's fit for a crunch game, absolutely. But against Scotland, or Italy? How many games has he played in where the result either wasn't in doubt or wasn't important?

His absence makes the Irish team hugely weaker, and we should have been making sure that we had a plan to minimise the loss, rather than flailing around for a solution when the inevitable happened.

Ireland did ok away to France last 6ns without Brian.

desertcircus

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo is playing the same opposition (strong & week) as Trimble at club level and scoring tries against them. Comparing their provincial try scoring record (starts last and this Season).

Zebo: 25 starts. 15 trys.
Trimble: 23 starts. 9 trys (and Ulster played Aironi in Heineken Cup last year).

That's only half the story. It doesn't tell you about the gameplan each team use or how much ball each player gets.

VanDerWaffy

Fireball07 wrote: »

Well, actually, that's what made me think he was ready. Racing was another good one actually, our only player to come out with any credit. But after the Leinster game, I really thought he should be starting for Ireland, he was superb. It really showed how much he has improved in the last 12 months.

And I don't know about that, Trimble can be excellent, but he has had plenty of fairly average days too. In general, I would say he is a solid international player... that's not a criticism, not many players make it to that level.

My recollection of the Leinster game is Zebo doing next to nothing and then getting subbed 10 minutes into the second half. To be perfectly frank I have yet to see Zebo do anything of note against top quality opposition. Until then he is still a player with potential to me. Although its not fashionable because hes (a) not overly young and (b) not hyped to the high heavens, Andrew Trimble deserves the start.

I have to laugh at people who on the one hand say that Trimble hasn't been consistently good and then on the other hand admit that they've only actually watched him in two games this season where he has been good! Just because Ulster don't play Leinster and Munster every week doesn't mean that players aren't playing excellent week in week out.

Andrew Trimble is in better form this season against better opposition. There is no way he deserves to be dropped because a young guy had a good game against a terrible Racing Metro side.

My team for S.A considering the injuries would be:
1.Healy 2.Strauss 3.Ross 4.POC 5.Caldwell 6.Ferris 7.Henry 8.Heaslip 9.Reddan 10.Sexton 11.Trimble 12.McFadden 13.D'arcy 14.Bowe 15.Earls

totallegend

jm08 wrote: »

Zebo is playing the same opposition (strong & week) as Trimble at club level and scoring tries against them. Comparing their provincial try scoring record (starts last and this Season).

Zebo: 25 starts. 15 trys.
Trimble: 23 starts. 9 trys (and Ulster played Aironi in Heineken Cup last year).

That is a ridiculous post.

thomond2006

VanDerWaffy wrote: »

My recollection of the Leinster game is Zebo doing next to nothing and then getting subbed 10 minutes into the second half. To be perfectly frank I have yet to see Zebo do anything of note against top quality opposition. Until then he is still a player with potential to me. Although its not fashionable because hes (a) not overly young and (b) not hyped to the high heavens, Andrew Trimble deserves the start.

I have to laugh at people who on the one hand say that Trimble hasn't been consistently good and then on the other hand admit that they've only actually watched him in two games this season where he has been good! Just because Ulster don't play Leinster and Munster every week doesn't mean that players aren't playing excellent week in week out.

Andrew Trimble is in better form this season against better opposition. There is no way he deserves to be dropped because a young guy had a good game against a terrible Racing Metro side.

My team for S.A considering the injuries would be:
1.Healy 2.Strauss 3.Ross 4.POC 5.Caldwell 6.Ferris 7.Henry 8.Heaslip 9.Reddan 10.Sexton 11.Trimble 12.McFadden 13.D'arcy 14.Bowe 15.Earls

I hadn't heard anything of Caldwell this season, I went and checked the Aviva Premiership site, Caldwell hasn't played a minute this season. He must have a bad injury.

The other argument is Zebo is performing despite being within a team that is still finding its way in an attacking sense, whereas Ulster have been flying it literally since Anscombe stepped off the plane.

Tox56

thomond2006 wrote: »

The other argument is Zebo is performing despite being within a team that is still finding its way in an attacking sense, whereas Ulster have been flying it literally since Anscombe stepped off the plane.

And the counter-argument is it's easier to impress in a poor performing team, e.g Carr at Connacht.

Although I think they both deserve it, Zebo is very young and if he's going to involved with the team for several years, you might as well give him a go, you have to start somewhere.

jm08

desertcircus wrote: »

That's only half the story. It doesn't tell you about the gameplan each team use or how much ball each player gets.

So Zebo goes looking for the ball. Worth noting as well - Ulster's defence was poor last season in the Rabo.

A wing is expected to contribute trys to a game. Zebo has made a few trys as well and has a good offload.

Aidric

Swiwi wrote: »

Agree++ Brian is one of those players you just have to pick if he's available.

Perhaps I am alone here but I'm of the opinion that O Driscoll's days are numbered. He doesn't offer the cutting edge he did at his peak anymore and Earls is a much more potent attacker these days. It's time to usher in a new era.

chris85

jm08 wrote: »

Ireland did ok away to France last 6ns without Brian.

Kind of proves desertcircuses point. We did ok away to France, still drew the game. The spark BOD could have given may have been the game changer. Either way we cant ever know as its in the past. Will be a big loss without him. He is a leader, big game player and has not lost it. Last week for the less than 20 minutes he played he was epic. I hope he bounces back strong from this injury.

thomond2006

Are the starters for South Africa going to be retained by Ireland this weekend?

I was surprised POC didn't play last week, surely he could go with an 80 minute appearance before the AIs? Then again, it's those 'mickey mouse' games that he always seems to get injured in.

irishbucsfan

Trimble is so much better than Zebo defensively that I feel he absolutely has to play the big games until Zebo can prove himself for Ireland as an attacking option.

But you then have to give Zebo the chance to prove himself against Argentina if we beat South Africa, which we should.

Fireball07

VanDerWaffy wrote: »

My recollection of the Leinster game is Zebo doing next to nothing and then getting subbed 10 minutes into the second half. To be perfectly frank I have yet to see Zebo do anything of note against top quality opposition. Until then he is still a player with potential to me. Although its not fashionable because hes (a) not overly young and (b) not hyped to the high heavens, Andrew Trimble deserves the start.

I have to laugh at people who on the one hand say that Trimble hasn't been consistently good and then on the other hand admit that they've only actually watched him in two games this season where he has been good! Just because Ulster don't play Leinster and Munster every week doesn't mean that players aren't playing excellent week in week out.

Andrew Trimble is in better form this season against better opposition. There is no way he deserves to be dropped because a young guy had a good game against a terrible Racing Metro side.

My team for S.A considering the injuries would be:
1.Healy 2.Strauss 3.Ross 4.POC 5.Caldwell 6.Ferris 7.Henry 8.Heaslip 9.Reddan 10.Sexton 11.Trimble 12.McFadden 13.D'arcy 14.Bowe 15.Earls

Well, I suggest you watch the game because he certainly didn't do nothing of note. And he was taken off with 15 minutes left. He was Munster's best player by a mile, as he was against Ospreys and Racing.

I think I've seen Trimble play 4 games this season, and I saw the highlights of the Castres game too. He was very good in 1, he was pretty good in another and I don't remember him doing much at all in the other 2. Zebo has been consistently excellent and deserves his spot.


As for your team...you think Caldwell should come from nowhere and overtake Ryan, DOC, Toner, Tuohy, McCarthy (despite not even being in the squad and not playing this season?). And D'Arcy at 13....even though he hasn't played there in ages, and Cave is playing well for Ulster?

Swiwi

Aidric wrote: »

Perhaps I am alone here but I'm of the opinion that O Driscoll's days are numbered. He doesn't offer the cutting edge he did at his peak anymore and Earls is a much more potent attacker these days. It's time to usher in a new era.

IMO you don't drop a proven high-level performer until you are clearly certain that the next player is consistently better. Case in point (and I know I always cite NZ...) is Sam Cane - had a fantastic 3rd test v Ireland, but I wouldn't drop McCaw because of it.

Brian would need a sustained run of mediocrity and Earls a sustained run of sublimeness before I would drop BOD.

Swiwi

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Trimble is so much better than Zebo defensively that I feel he absolutely has to play the big games until Zebo can prove himself for Ireland as an attacking option.

But you then have to give Zebo the chance to prove himself against Argentina if we beat South Africa, which we should.

Why do you think you should beat SA? I'm not being smart, just intrigued to know?

Tox56

Swiwi wrote: »

Why do you think you should beat SA? I'm not being smart, just intrigued to know?

They're pretty badly hit by injuries no?

Swiwi

Tox56 wrote: »

They're pretty badly hit by injuries no?

True, but they have depth. Their country is right up with NZ for rugby fanatical-ness. Ireland can win, but they will need a very good effort from their pack. And absolute security under the high ball, and spot on decision making from the the back three. And Sexton to have his kicking boots on.

irishbucsfan

Swiwi wrote: »

Why do you think you should beat SA? I'm not being smart, just intrigued to know?

Because we should be winning our home games if we want to consider ourselves a top rugby nation. There was once a time, many moons ago, when we didn't have the embarrassing home record that we currently do.

VanDerWaffy

thomond2006 wrote: »

I hadn't heard anything of Caldwell this season, I went and checked the Aviva Premiership site, Caldwell hasn't played a minute this season. He must have a bad injury.

The other argument is Zebo is performing despite being within a team that is still finding its way in an attacking sense, whereas Ulster have been flying it literally since Anscombe stepped off the plane.

Caldwell is back training and hes the most inform lock on the tail end of last season. He deserves a go.

I really hate this ' hes playing well in a team finding its way' argument. It was the same arguments made for starting Fionn Carr not long ago. Munster are 7 wins from 10 in the Rabo and 1 from 2 in the HC. Its not as if Zebo is playing in a team full of one-handed, blind, old-age pensioners and dragging them to victories.

You could argue a large part of Ulster flying is the players. Hence why they were flying last season as well. So lets start the good ones. You try to claim that Ulster are doing well in spite of Trimble but that Zebo is doing well in spite of Munster? Double standards. Again convenient argument not unlike the 'hes playing in a sub-performing team'

You must be a Munster fan who is coloured by bias. If you are not then fair enough but you're still wrong

irishbucsfan

I see Caldwell is the latest addition to the "overrated locks playing abroad" club. Bob Casey will have to present him with his ceremonial tie.

VanDerWaffy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I see Caldwell is the latest addition to the "overrated locks playing abroad" club. Bob Casey will have to present him with his ceremonial tie.

Perhaps you should watch some rugby outside the Rabo.

thomond2006

VanDerWaffy wrote: »

You must be a Munster fan who is coloured by bias. If you are not then fair enough but you're still wrong

So because you disagree with me, I must be biased and wrong? lawl

I'd have no complaints if Trimble was picked ahead of Zebo, both are playing well in my opinion.

VanDerWaffy

Fireball07 wrote: »

Well, I suggest you watch the game because he certainly didn't do nothing of note. And he was taken off with 15 minutes left. He was Munster's best player by a mile, as he was against Ospreys and Racing.

What did he do against Leinster? I did watch the game. How can you say he played well against Ospreys? Just because he wasn't the worst player doesn't mean he played well. Ditto versus Racing, scored a nice try but then again Racing's tackling towards the end of the game was appaling not unlike Cardiffs against Leinster the other night.

I think I've seen Trimble play 4 games this season, and I saw the highlights of the Castres game too. He was very good in 1, he was pretty good in another and I don't remember him doing much at all in the other 2. Zebo has been consistently excellent and deserves his spot.

4 games? I don't think you should be commenting on Trimble then.

As for your team...you think Caldwell should come from nowhere and overtake Ryan, DOC, Toner, Tuohy, McCarthy (despite not even being in the squad and not playing this season?). And D'Arcy at 13....even though he hasn't played there in ages, and Cave is playing well for Ulster?

Caldwell is not coming from nowhere he was utterly brilliant last season and hes back training. Sure Jones is going along after one game against Zebre and to be perfectly honest thats on the basis of some decent form in 6 ML games about two years ago.

D'arcy at 13 is a great option, I think he'd open up defenses with the space at 13. As a big time supporter of the Ulster project I like Cave but I'd like to see D'arcy have a go at the position I think he'll make his own when BOD retires.

Hagz

I'd rather Zebo start. I feel like we've seen Trimble reach his potential and tbh, while it's great, it's not world class. People get slightly defensive over Trimble because they feel he's under-appreciated. Which is frustrating if you're someone who doesn't under-rate Trimble at all. Trimble is a very good player and someone who can definitely provide on the international stage, but he's just not a world beater. I just think there's more benefit in starting Zebo. Do I think Zebo is a world beater? no. Do I think he will be a world beater? I dunno. Let's play him and see. It's not like Trimble will evaporate into non-existence if you don't play him. He'll still remain an option. But it's about creating another option in Zebo.

VanDerWaffy

thomond2006 wrote: »

So because you disagree with me, I must be biased and wrong? lawl

No its because you're applying double standards.