Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Fireball07

VanDerWaffy wrote: »

Caldwell is back training and hes the most inform lock on the tail end of last season. He deserves a go.

I really hate this ' hes playing well in a team finding its way' argument. It was the same arguments made for starting Fionn Carr not long ago. Munster are 7 wins from 10 in the Rabo and 1 from 2 in the HC. Its not as if Zebo is playing in a team full of one-handed, blind, old-age pensioners and dragging them to victories.

You could argue a large part of Ulster flying is the players. Hence why they were flying last season as well. So lets start the good ones. You try to claim that Ulster are doing well in spite of Trimble but that Zebo is doing well in spite of Munster? Double standards. Again convenient argument not unlike the 'hes playing in a sub-performing team'

You must be a Munster fan who is coloured by bias. If you are not then fair enough but you're still wrong

So...we should include Caldwell based on his form of last year? But we should ignore Zebo even though he's the form winger this year.

How many times have you even seen Zebo this season, out of interest? He's played really well in pretty much every game, his game has become more rounded, he's increased his attacking threat, what more can he do?

Trimble has been good, but not as good as Zebo. I don't think the "in spite of" argument is very good either, in either direction.

thomond2006

VanDerWaffy wrote: »

No its because you're applying double standards.

me wrote:

The other argument is Zebo is performing despite being within a team that is still finding its way in an attacking sense, whereas Ulster have been flying it literally since Anscombe stepped off the plane.

I think it's valid to a point tbh. Note how I didn't say Zebo was better than Trimble because he's playing in a worse team, I was bigging up Zebo rather than putting down Trimble. I also said it's an argument, I don't necessarily agree with it myself (devil's advocate)! Trimble has been very much part of Ulster's great form this season, I'm not trying to say Ulster are carrying him, they're not.

Personally I'd go for Zebo on the basis of getting someone young in, but if Trimble is picked I'll have no complaints.

irishbucsfan

VanDerWaffy wrote: »

Perhaps you should watch some rugby outside the Rabo.

Haha I should watch rugby outside the Rabo!?

I play in England and attend premiership games regularly, actually. If you watched a little bit more premiership rugby you'd know he hasn't been involved this season yet. He should start for Ireland ahead of Donncha Ryan?!

Caldwell, even if he was fit, is not good enough to start and would be pushing it to make the squad ahead of Tuohy or McCarthy.

Fireball07

VanDerWaffy wrote: »

What did he do against Leinster? I did watch the game. How can you say he played well against Ospreys? Just because he wasn't the worst player doesn't mean he played well. Ditto versus Racing, scored a nice try but then again Racing's tackling towards the end of the game was appaling not unlike Cardiffs against Leinster the other night.

He was a continuous attacking threat, he caught some great ball under pressure and made some brilliant clearing kicks. And it's not he wasn't the worst player, he was by far and away the best player in each of those games. You say you watched the game but you thought he was taken off 10 minutes into the second half???

4 games? I don't think you should be commenting on Trimble then.

And how many games has he played overall?? 7? I think 4 big games + highlights is fair enough. I know exactly what Trimble can do, pretty much all Irish fans do.

Caldwell is not coming from nowhere he was utterly brilliant last season and hes back training. Sure Jones is going along after one game against Zebre and to be perfectly honest thats on the basis of some decent form in 6 ML games about two years ago.

Jones should not be at 15 for Ireland, he needs to find form for Munster first. Earls should be 15.

[QUPTE]D'arcy at 13 is a great option, I think he'd open up defenses with the space at 13. As a big time supporter of the Ulster project I like Cave but I'd like to see D'arcy have a go at the position I think he'll make his own when BOD retires.[/QUOTE]

When was the last time he played there?? Cave is playing week-in week-out at 13, and doing well. I find it very unlikely that D'Arcy will make the 13 position his own, considering his form has been declining and there is already a lack of 12s.

Hagz wrote: »

I'd rather Zebo start. I feel like we've seen Trimble reach his potential and tbh, while it's great, it's not world class. People get slightly defensive over Trimble because they feel he's under-appreciated. Which is frustrating if you're someone who doesn't under-rate Trimble at all. Trimble is a very good player and someone who can definitely provide on the international stage, but he's just not a world beater. I just think there's more benefit in starting Zebo. Do I think Zebo is a world beater? no. Do I think he will be a world beater? I dunno. Let's play him and see. It's not like Trimble will evaporate into non-existence if you don't play him. He'll still remain an option. But it's about creating another option in Zebo.

I agree with this. Don't get me wrong, I like Trimble, and if he does start, I won't have a big problem with it, he won't let us down. But Zebo is the form player and a much greater attacking threat.

[Jackass]

Why don't we put out a backline of Marshall, Madigan, Carr, O'Malley, Earls, Zebo, Jones..

It's all well and good having some fancy dans with ball in hand, and guys like Zebo have scored some superb tries this season (Paris springs to mind), but it takes a lot more than being electric with ball in hand to be a great player.

Anyone who thinks BOD is not up to it any more needs their head examined imo...

Zebo looks nice with ball in hand, but without defensive organisers like BOD, how would you like to see him up against someone like North? There's no comparrison...

Guys like Earls, Zebo, O'Malley (just bringing him in as he's Leinster to keep the provincial balance) have been exposed defensively badly at provincial level and are not the steel you want in a defence. There's only so much compromise you can make for attacking flair I'm afraid. Rob Kearney too has been burned on his outside channel once or twice, although defensively he is generally at least very good, when isolated he's been made to look mediocre. If you don't have brilliant defensive players in your team and guys like Zebo and Earls and Kearney, O'Malley, Jones are isolated, you're in serious trouble. McFadden on the wing too, not his natural position and NZ, the best team in the world, were experts at isolating our wide men and they absolutely ripped us apart, it was like watching a lion fight a hamster...

Jones will leap frog Kearney once he's fit though. Game time for Munster players superseeds 3 time Heineken Cup winning full-backs who are currently European player of the year.

Fishooks12

[Jackass] wrote: »

Why don't we put out a backline of Marshall, Madigan, Carr, O'Malley, Earls, Zebo, Jones..

It's all well and good having some fancy dans with ball in hand, and guys like Zebo have scored some superb tries this season (Paris springs to mind), but it takes a lot more than being electric with ball in hand to be a great player.

.

Zebo has a huge left boot to go with his electric pace, solid hands and eye for a gap

IMO the only thing Trimble has over him is improved physicality and international experience

No doubt in my mind who the form player is and the one who is a huge prospect for the future. Zebo should start against SA

Nothing against Trimble but what are we going learn by playing him again when Zebo is in better form on the home front

You also say Zebo has been exposed defensively, which was true last year, however he's been a rock in defense this season.

.ak

VanDerWaffy I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as you're new here, but we have a rule of thumb on boards: "Attack the post, not the poster." Please keep that in mind when engaging other posters.

bilston

Next thing we need to find but is whether Ferris is fit or not. I have my doubts.

Scioch

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Zebo has a huge left boot to go with his electric pace, solid hands and eye for a gap

IMO the only thing Trimble has over him is improved physicality and international experience

No doubt in my mind who the form player is and the one who is a huge prospect for the future. Zebo should start against SA

Nothing against Trimble but what are we going learn by playing him again when Zebo is in better form on the home front

You also say Zebo has been exposed defensively, which was true last year, however he's been a rock in defense this season.

So O'Halloran should start instead of Bowe too ? What are we gonna learn from playing Bowe when we could play a young guy with bags of potential who's on form ?

Marshall at SH. Madigan/Keatley/Jackson at OH. Toner and Ryan in second row. Henderson and Henry into the back row.

Where do you draw the line with on form young talent replacing their already established international counterparts ? Why is it only Zebo getting his chance ?

Bench him and give him some time by all means but to jump him straight to the head of the queue is utter madness. Trimble is a better winger, why would you start an inferior player in a game you want to win ??

irishbucsfan

Unfortunately due to the teams inability to win the games they should have this year South Africa is not a game about "finding out" about players like Zebo. We need to put out a XV that can win.

Hagz

[Jackass] wrote: »

Why don't we put out a backline of Marshall, Madigan, Carr, O'Malley, Earls, Zebo, Jones..

Because that would be disastrously retarded. So someone would like to see a young inexperienced exiting player start and you say 'well we might as well start an awful back-line full of unproven/fresh from injury players!'. No, let's not do that. Let's just start 1 exiting player. Yes I know, 1! It's crazy, but hell, let's just try it out!



We could have a back-line that looks like
9. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Zebo
12. D'Arcy
13. Earls
14. Trimble
15. Bowe

And in fact, I think that's what we'll most likely see. I'd prefer Cave in the centre with Bowe on the right and Zebo on the left.

Scioch

Hagz wrote: »

Because that would be disastrously retarded. So someone would like to see a young inexperienced exiting player start and you say 'well we might as well start an awful back-line full of unproven/fresh from injury players!'. No, let's not do that. Let's just start 1 exiting player. Yes I know, 1! It's crazy, but hell, let's just try it out!

Why not go one crazier and start our strongest team and let the young players get their time off the bench if its an option ?

Swiwi

Hagz wrote: »

I'd rather Zebo start. I feel like we've seen Trimble reach his potential and tbh, while it's great, it's not world class. People get slightly defensive over Trimble because they feel he's under-appreciated. Which is frustrating if you're someone who doesn't under-rate Trimble at all. Trimble is a very good player and someone who can definitely provide on the international stage, but he's just not a world beater. I just think there's more benefit in starting Zebo. Do I think Zebo is a world beater? no. Do I think he will be a world beater? I dunno. Let's play him and see. It's not like Trimble will evaporate into non-existence if you don't play him. He'll still remain an option. But it's about creating another option in Zebo.

My thoughts exactly. Can always stick Trimble on the bench in case Zebo turns to custard.

Fireball07

Scioch wrote: »

So O'Halloran should start instead of Bowe too ? What are we gonna learn from playing Bowe when we could play a young guy with bags of potential who's on form ?

Marshall at SH. Madigan/Keatley/Jackson at OH. Toner and Ryan in second row. Henderson and Henry into the back row.

Where do you draw the line with on form young talent replacing their already established international counterparts ? Why is it only Zebo getting his chance ?

Bench him and give him some time by all means but to jump him straight to the head of the queue is utter madness. Trimble is a better winger, why would you start an inferior player in a game you want to win ??

When the quality is close...I think it's fair enough. Don't think TOH has been playing better than Bowe in any case.

I think Marshall could make a decent case for starting, although Reddan had a very good game the last night.

Jackson should be at least no. 2 but up to now, Sexton has shown how good he really is, stamped his class on plenty of games.

Ryan hasn't played that well so far this season, POC has been much better. Toner has been left out because of Cullen so that's not really a fair comparison.

Henry should start in the backrow, he's the form 7. Henderson has played well and a lot of people have been calling him to start at 6 if Ferris isn't fit. I don't know whether he should or not, he hasn't played that many games, but he should at least be considered.

The point is Zebo has been playing excellently, better than Trimble imo.



It's not as if a team with Zebo is a team not going out to win, I think it would be our strongest available backline and we're just as likely to win with Zebo as we would with Trimble.

Hagz

Scioch wrote: »

So O'Halloran should start instead of Bowe too ? What are we gonna learn from playing Bowe when we could play a young guy with bags of potential who's on form ?

Bowe is world class when he's on form, so no. Let's not start O'Halloran instead

Marshall at SH. Madigan/Keatley/Jackson at OH. Toner and Ryan in second row. Henderson and Henry into the back row.
Why should the proposal of one young player turn into 5-6?

Where do you draw the line with on form young talent replacing their already established international counterparts ? Why is it only Zebo getting his chance ?
You measure up the potential of both, and decide which will provide better results. If your opinion is that Trimble has more potential fair enough.

Trimble is a better winger, why would you start an inferior player in a game you want to win ??

It's not a black and white argument unfortunately. You could say that Ireland want to win all their games, so why take a chance on anyone in that case? As I've said, I think Zebo has the potential to be great, but you won't discover that potential unless your thrown in the mix. Just because myself and others aren't as conservative, doesn't mean we're wrong. It just means we have a different opinion. As most have said on here, nobody would mind if Trimble starts, yet there are many on here who would seemingly flip the lid if Zebo starts.

Podge_irl

[Jackass] wrote: »

Guys like Earls, Zebo, O'Malley (just bringing him in as he's Leinster to keep the provincial balance) have been exposed defensively badly at provincial level and are not the steel you want in a defence.

Both Earls and Zebo have improved massively in their defence of late and O'Malley has never been exposed badly. He had one bad missed tackle against Bath where he went too high as he was expecting Jennings to go low and that was it.

BOD isn't available so its pointless discussing him. Earls did quite well in his absence in the last 6N and I'm not unduly worried about him starting at 13 - which I'm pretty sure will happen. Is he as good a defensive organiser as BOD? No. But then no one is.

I think Trimble is more solid in defence then Zebo, but he's also been quite underwhelming this year any time I've seen him. I'd like to see each getting one game.

phog

desertcircus wrote: »

It's an embarrassment that following injury to a 33-year-old centre, the two options being most discussed (Downey and Cave) have a combined total of seven minutes of Test rugby in the last three years. No, scratch that: it's a disgrace. Well bloody done, everyone in the IRFU: we're now facing South Africa and Argentina to try to maintain our seeding for the World Cup, and our backline options are:

In fairness, I think we're in this position because most of us assume (myself included) the best replacement (Earls) for BOD is probably going to cover FB. So we're stuck with who will fall into the centre position and it certainly shouldnt be Downey. Why move Darcy the most experienced centre available to us just to have Downey on the field?

Podge_irl

I think Earls will be moved to 13 in BOD's absence and Kidney will be left scrambling for 15 cover and I wouldn't be surprised to see Bowe end up there. Its more akin to his style then dropping Cave in at 13 I think.

Hagz

Scioch wrote: »

Why not go one crazier and start our strongest team and let the young players get their time off the bench if its an option ?

You could do that. Have I said I'd be angry if we did that? No. But I don't see why people are getting their feathers ruffled by the idea of one young talent being given a shot. The idea of Zebo starting is being shot down so aggressively. What's the big deal? He's shown vast improvement to couple with his exiting talent. It would be a different story if we were talking about him starting ahead of Bowe, that I understand. But we're not talking about Bowe. We're talking about Trimble.

Zzippy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I see Caldwell is the latest addition to the "overrated locks playing abroad" club. Bob Casey will have to present him with his ceremonial tie.

VanDerWaffy wrote: »

Perhaps you should watch some rugby outside the Rabo.

VDW, you must be very new here, or you'd know Irishbucsfan is probably the most knowledgeable poster on here about Premiership rugby

Fireball07

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think Earls will be moved to 13 in BOD's absence and Kidney will be left scrambling for 15 cover and I wouldn't be surprised to see Bowe end up there. Its more akin to his style then dropping Cave in at 13 I think.

I'm scared that will happen too...I think that would be a bad idea.

Bowe is a better winger than Trimble, Earls is a better full-back than Bowe and there's not that much between Earls and Cave at centre.

Swiwi

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think Earls will be moved to 13 in BOD's absence and Kidney will be left scrambling for 15 cover and I wouldn't be surprised to see Bowe end up there. Its more akin to his style then dropping Cave in at 13 I think.

Could Bowe play centre? In any case, 13 really is a specialised position, as witness by SBW & Nonu paling in comparison to Smith. Not saying 15 isn't specialised (played there myself), but nowadays 11/14 should be able to do a stop-gap effort at 15 if required. Given Kidney has played Earls in the midfield before, I would agree he is more likely to go with this than Bowe or someone else. I have been told previously that Bowe played 13 for Ospreys, but I guess it would be a bit out of left field at international level. Certainly Cullen/MacDonald/Muliaina were a disaster going from 15 to 13 when it mattered for NZ.

Fireball07

Swiwi wrote: »

Could Bowe play centre? In any case, 13 really is a specialised position, as witness by SBW & Nonu paling in comparison to Smith. Not saying 15 isn't specialised (played there myself), but nowadays 11/14 should be able to do a stop-gap effort at 15 if required. Given Kidney has played Earls in the midfield before, I would agree he is more likely to go with this than Bowe or someone else. I have been told previously that Bowe played 13 for Ospreys, but I guess it would be a bit out of left field at international level. Certainly Cullen/MacDonald/Muliaina were a disaster going from 15 to 13 when it mattered for NZ.

He did for Ospreys but he wasn't great. Cave would be much better there.

jm08

Swiwi wrote: »

My thoughts exactly. Can always stick Trimble on the bench in case Zebo turns to custard.

He hasn't turned to custard yet and Munster played the Scarlets & Northampton who have some good backs.

Last season in the rabo Ulster were very poor defensively conceeding 41 tries (Leinster 28, Munster 27).

Ulster defence is much better this season, but it looks like Darren Cave had a bit of a mare against Cardiff missing 7 tackles according to ESPN!

I didn't see the match - what happened?

http://www.espnscrum.com/rabodirect-pro12-2012-13/rugby/match/167011.html

jm08

Fireball07 wrote: »

I'm scared that will happen too...I think that would be a bad idea.

Bowe is a better winger than Trimble, Earls is a better full-back than Bowe and there's not that much between Earls and Cave at centre.

Remember this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkW4yZcwVwE

Swiwi

Fireball07 wrote: »

He did for Ospreys but he wasn't great. Cave would be much better there.

Ok, well that answers that so. Bowe is far and away Ireland's best winger, so I wouldn't move him to FB. Have not seen Earls play there either, so can't comment, but aside from my previously aired concerns about his defence at centre (which I am told by other posters has improved no end), I would probably put Earls at 13 then.

I can't offer an obvious alternative for 15, except that they need to be exceptional under the high ball v SA (ie Cory Jane not Julian Savea), and I would choose a lesser player on attack who is as safe as houses defensively in the first instance.

Scioch

Hagz wrote: »

You could do that. Have I said I'd be angry if we did that? No. But I don't see why people are getting their feathers ruffled by the idea of one young talent being given a shot. The idea of Zebo starting is being shot down so aggressively. What's the big deal? He's shown vast improvement to couple with his exiting talent. It would be a different story if we were talking about him starting ahead of Bowe, that I understand. But we're not talking about Bowe. We're talking about Trimble.

Because its wakening the team in a game we should be trying to win. We should be selecting the starting 15 to beat the Boks, not saying "Ah shur lets give yer man a go see what'll happen". If thats the attitude fine, but you extend it to cover more than one player and maximise the amount your going to get out of the game once you've decided your not doing all you can to win it.

It would be no different if he was starting ahead of Bowe, its the same thing. He'd be starting ahead of a better option. I just dont understand how you can harbour a desire to win a match while gambling with an unknown entity. I didnt understand it with Murray in the WC and I dont understand it with Zebo now. Bench him and start him when he's shown he can play to an international level.

Swiwi

Scioch wrote: »

Because its wakening the team in a game we should be trying to win. We should be selecting the starting 15 to beat the Boks, not saying "Ah shur lets give yer man a go see what'll happen". If thats the attitude fine, but you extend it to cover more than one player and maximise the amount your going to get out of the game once you've decided your not doing all you can to win it.

It would be no different if he was starting ahead of Bowe, its the same thing. He'd be starting ahead of a better option. I just dont understand how you can harbour a desire to win a match while gambling with an unknown entity. I didnt understand it with Murray in the WC and I dont understand it with Zebo now. Bench him and start him when he's shown he can play to an international level.

The game Ireland can't afford to lose is v Argentina. There is no shame in losing to SA, although I guess a win would well & truly cement a top 8 spot for Ireland.

Scioch

Swiwi wrote: »

The game Ireland can't afford to lose is v Argentina. There is no shame in losing to SA, although I guess a win would well & truly cement a top 8 spot for Ireland.

We are in the stupid position now where almost every game is a must win which we end up losing and its hindering what we can do with the rest.

Kidney will pick a strong team to face the Boks so I'd prefer it was our strongest to increase the chances of winning it. Because it would be of untold benefit if we did, unlike losing and facing Argentina with no room to manoeuvre.

Mr.Opti

Talk of Earls playing fullback is nonsense now that BOD is out injured!! Earls if fully fit will start at 13 and Bowe will probably play at 15 with Zebo & Trimble on the wings unless either Keatley, Madigan or Jones gets called up after this weekend.

I can see Jones getting called up & probably starting