Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't think we should be harsh on Zebo just because of Kidney's predilection for Munster players. He wasn't a deserved selection last year but I think he is this year.

When you say undeserved, what do you mean? From what I recall, he was brought on tour and started 1 test on the wing.

Zebo started 1 game with McFadden on the other wing.
Trimble started 1 game and benched for the 3rd test.
Zebo started 1 game and was an unused sub in the 2nd test.
McFadden was involved in all 3 Tests.

Who was badly done by considering that Bowe, Luke & D Kearney were unavailable to tour.

Kearney made the bench for the 6Ns ahead of Zebo.

Looks like Kidney was doing exactly what a lot of posters here claim he doesn't do - blood new players. How do you not know that tour was the reason for Zebo to improve so much?

Fireball07

molloyjh wrote: »

But what else would you consider other than form in this instance? You can't pick one player over another based on form and then apply different criteria to others. Well unless you're DK of course....

Well when it's so close, I think there are a couple of other factors. Like Reddan's ability to link up with Sexton, and his experience. It could be a factor. Likewise, Murray's defensive play. Or if you wanted a real breaking threat, you'd pick Marshall.

There's really not much between them imo.

I'd pick Marshall myself. But he's only just been added to the squad so it doesn't look like he's a real candidate.

jm08

bilston wrote: »

Not sure you're right. Seven players were called up at the weekend to cover injuries (BOD included) and Jones wasn't one of them. Earls to 15 and Cave to 13 is what I expect to see.

The reason why Jones wasn't called into the squad is to do with Jones needing gametime and they thought he would be better staying with Munster who have an away game to Cardiff on Friday night.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

The reason why Jones wasn't called into the squad is to do with Jones needing gametime and they thought he would be better staying with Munster who have an away game to Cardiff on Friday night.

Bent needs gametime and is expected play. Earls needs gametime. Cronin was called up and was expected to play this weekend (until Bests injury at least).

Just because you're in the squad doesn't mean you aren't allowed play this weekend. If Jones is an option he'll be called up officially.

JRant

Quint2010 wrote: »

This absolutely what Kidney will do if Ferris is injured.

I really hope not but it really could happen

Fireball07

JRant wrote: »

I'd have Lockie at 6 if Fez is injured but we could well see Ryan slot in there with DOC starting lock

Ugh...no problem with DOC starting but Ryan in the back row would be a bad choice. I'd pick POM myself, but Locky could equally do a job. I'd pick Henderson ahead of Ryan there too. I like Ryan a lot, think he's class but he's not Ferris. And it'd be unfair to try and expect him to replace him.

Scioch wrote: »

Trimble is just as good under the high ball as Zebo

Not sure about that at all...Zebo is brilliant in the air, his ability to claim restarts and garryowens is one of his strongest points. He dominates in the air.

and well able create something from nothing, he did it several times in the world cup.

He can create stuff but again, I think Zebo is better at it.

But you wouldnt need to rely on creating something from nothing if you got your selections right in ther position. Henry at 7 would be invaluable in slowing down the SA backline and Reddan at 9 would better enable us to stamp our authority and pace on the game.

Not so much to with relying on it...it's always something nice to have. Henry is the form 7, he should definitely play there.

Reddan is one that doesn't worry me as much, he's pretty good, but I think the other SHs will do a similar job if they're playing well. The main reason for including Reddan is that he plays there every week with Sexton, and Sexton is really our key player, anything which can get him playing better is good.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Bent needs gametime and is expected play. Earls needs gametime. Cronin was called up and was expected to play this weekend (until Bests injury at least).

Just because you're in the squad doesn't mean you aren't allowed play this weekend. If Jones is an option he'll be called up officially.

Munster is the only province that has a game on Friday night - the others have their game on Sunday. I think they said Bent is training with Leinster tomorrow.

Jones has only started 1 game since his injury in April - most of the others have a bit more gametime.

Scioch

Fireball07 wrote: »

He can create stuff but again, I think Zebo is better at it.

Not so much to with relying on it...it's always something nice to have. Henry is the form 7, he should definitely play there.

Ah but if its something thats nice to have, both can do it but your not relying on it. While defence is going to be crucial. Why is it a reason for selecting Zebo ?

And it will be interesting to see if he picks Henry or Cave. This selection will be very telling. If Henry cant get selected he can forget about international rugby until Kidney is gone.

Reddan is one that doesn't worry me as much, he's pretty good, but I think the other SHs will do a similar job if they're playing well. The main reason for including Reddan is that he plays there every week with Sexton, and Sexton is really our key player, anything which can get him playing better is good.

I think Reddan is a better SH. He's faster, he's less inclined to get lost in the thick of it which means better flow and easier to make ground. And as you said he links well with Sexton which will be instrumental if we want to achieve anything.

Mr.Opti

Scioch wrote: »

Wings will be doing a hell of a lot more tackling than the SH, so if defending against SA backline is what your worried about Trimble should be your pick not Zebo.

Trimble is just as good under the high ball as Zebo and well able create something from nothing, he did it several times in the world cup. But you wouldnt need to rely on creating something from nothing if you got your selections right in ther position. Henry at 7 would be invaluable in slowing down the SA backline and Reddan at 9 would better enable us to stamp our authority and pace on the game.

Defend and hope and then maybe get a nice consolation try isnt how I like to see the team set out. We should b going out to control the game and starve them of possession and players like Trimble, Reddan and Henry would be the men for the job.

When S.A play they like to bully the oppositions forwards, secondly they like to kick a lot of ball.
Zebo is way better under a high ball than Trimble and can kick far far better than trimble who looks awkward and uncomfortable when kicking.

The ability to create something out of nothing is what makes the world class players. This is where BOD excelled over the years and where the likes of Carter, Dagg, SBW, Beale, Habana, De Villiers etc...

No where sis i say i wanted to defend. If i did would i not choose Trimble for his better tackling?!?

Fireball07

Scioch wrote: »

Ah but if its something thats nice to have, both can do it but your not relying on it. While defence is going to be crucial. Why is it a reason for selecting Zebo ?

Well the South African defence is going to be very strong, I think Zebo is more likely to breach it than Trimble. As for defence...overall it'll be crucial, however defensively, the selection of either is very unlikely to decide the game while in attack, it could.

And it will be interesting to see if he picks Henry or Cave. This selection will be very telling. If Henry cant get selected he can forget about international rugby until Kidney is gone.

Well, they both deserve to start. They are both the best players in their position (if you put Earls to 15). I don't think Trimble is better than Zebo though.

I think Reddan is a better SH. He's faster, he's less inclined to get lost in the thick of it which means better flow and easier to make ground. And as you said he links well with Sexton which will be instrumental if we want to achieve anything.

Like I said, I don't really mind here. All our SHs have strong points and weak points, I'm not too fussed.

JRant

Fireball07 wrote: »

Ugh...no problem with DOC starting but Ryan in the back row would be a bad choice. I'd pick POM myself, but Locky could equally do a job. I'd pick Henderson ahead of Ryan there too. I like Ryan a lot, think he's class but he's not Ferris. And it'd be unfair to try and expect him to replace him.



Not sure about that at all...Zebo is brilliant in the air, his ability to claim restarts and garryowens is one of his strongest points. He dominates in the air.



He can create stuff but again, I think Zebo is better at it.



Not so much to with relying on it...it's always something nice to have. Henry is the form 7, he should definitely play there.

Reddan is one that doesn't worry me as much, he's pretty good, but I think the other SHs will do a similar job if they're playing well. The main reason for including Reddan is that he plays there every week with Sexton, and Sexton is really our key player, anything which can get him playing better is good.

I'd hate to see DOC starting at this stage to be honest. If we were down to the bare bones at lock maybe but he should be behind Ryan, McCarthy and Touhy.

I'd have Henderson ahead of POM on this seasons form. That lad is going to be some player and has that certain edge a 6 needs that i think POM is still lacking. Good player that he is and all but I think he needs to settle into one position if he wants to make it at the highest levell

Cpt_Blackbeard

Pretty much just skipped over the cluster fúck in the last few pages.

Looks to me that Zebo is suffering the faith Earls did a few years ago: He is (one of) the most exciting attacking player in the country yet people don't want him in the team because of ill perceived weaknesses. Zebo is in great form and deserves the Irish jersey. Even if you don't agree with that, anyone with an ounce of reasoned thought would agree that with Kearney out, a back 3 player with a great aerial and kicking game will be needed against the Boks. Zebo looks to tick those boxes better than anyone else available.

As always, there are resounding calls for youth to be given its chance, until posters don't like who the form up-and-comers are.

Teferi

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Pretty much just skipped over the cluster fúck in the last two pages.

You didn't need to say this, was quite obvious you skipped over peoples arguments and just came to your own conclusions. Nobody was saying Zebo doesn't deserve a chance, some people were arguing to keep Trimble.

It's not a "cluster fúck" just because people don't agree with you that we need to field Munster players from 1 - 15.

Zebo may be suffering from Kidneys clear Munster bias because although he is having a class season this year, he did not deserve a call up in the last one.

Take off the red goggles, it may help you read more clearly.

JRant

Mr.Opti wrote: »

When S.A play they like to bully the oppositions forwards, secondly they like to kick a lot of ball.
Zebo is way better under a high ball than Trimble and can kick far far better than trimble who looks awkward and uncomfortable when kicking.

The ability to create something out of nothing is what makes the world class players. This is where BOD excelled over the years and where the likes of Carter, Dagg, SBW, Beale, Habana, De Villiers etc...

No where sis i say i wanted to defend. If i did would i not choose Trimble for his better tackling?!?

All the more reason to play a nippy SH who will actually get to more than 50% of rucks. If Murray starts fannying around again at ruck time we'll be swamped. With the players at our disposal surely a fast paced game would suit more than the muck we've been dishing out for a few seasons now.

Are you comparing Zebo to these players?

Scioch

Mr.Opti wrote: »

No where sis i say i wanted to defend. If i did would i not choose Trimble for his better tackling?!?

With the backrow that SA have who would you prefer to have covering a tackle Reddan or Murray?!?

Seems to be your main concern in selecting a SH who would be doing less tackling than the wings.

And thats my point, why is defence always the reasoning behind Murrays selection yet its of little importance in other positions where its more of a concern ?

goreyguy

don't see how anyone can argue for murray over reddan at this stage.

Reddan is clearly the superior player

jm08

Juan de Jongh's try at the weekend. This is the pace and power that Ireland will be up against.

http://youtu.be/SZBJUDh709Y

Mr.Opti

JRant wrote: »

All the more reason to play a nippy SH who will actually get to more than 50% of rucks. If Murray starts fannying around again at ruck time we'll be swamped. With the players at our disposal surely a fast paced game would suit more than the muck we've been dishing out for a few seasons now.

Are you comparing Zebo to these players?

Right now no i'm not but he has the physical attributes and so far this season has the potential to be world class in the future.

JRant

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Pretty much just skipped over the cluster fúck in the last few pages.

Looks to me that Zebo is suffering the faith Earls did a few years ago: He is (one of) the most exciting attacking player in the country yet people don't want him in the team because of ill perceived weaknesses. Zebo is in great form and deserves the Irish jersey. Even if you don't agree with that, anyone with an ounce of reasoned thought would agree that with Kearney out, a back 3 player with a great aerial and kicking game will be needed against the Boks. Zebo looks to tick those boxes better than anyone else available.

As always, there are resounding calls for youth to be given its chance, until posters don't like who the form up-and-comers are.

Well the form up and comers this season also includes Marshall, Jackson, marimon, Henderson. I'd throw in Madigan and Gilroy to that list as well.
Will we see them given a chance?
Not on your nelly and everyone knows the reason why.

Fireball07

JRant wrote: »

All the more reason to play a nippy SH who will actually get to more than 50% of rucks. If Murray starts fannying around again at ruck time we'll be swamped. With the players at our disposal surely a fast paced game would suit more than the muck we've been dishing out for a few seasons now.

In fairness, that hasn't been a problem for Murray this season. He's been getting to the rucks and moving the ball pretty quickly this year.

irishbucsfan

Depends how we're looking to beat South Africa. Murray might be the right choice.

JRant

Mr.Opti wrote: »

Right now no i'm not but he has the physical attributes and so far this season has the potential to be world class in the future.

We'll have to wait and see what the future holds for him. I hope your right about him but i've not seen anything to suggest he'll be as good as any of those player.

goreyguy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Depends how we're looking to beat South Africa. Murray might be the right choice.

Hilarious.

jm08

JRant wrote: »

Well the form up and comers this season also includes Marshall, Jackson, marimon, Henderson. I'd throw in Madigan and Gilroy to that list as well.
Will we see them given a chance?
Not on your nelly and everyone knows the reason why.

I think there are probably enough enforced changes without adding any more.

Some of those will get a chance against Fiji (most likely Jackson & Marshall as they play regularly with each other).

Gilroy isn't a starter for Ulster this season. He needs to displace one of Trimble or Bowe.

I'd let Marmion play a bit more for Connacht before throwing him into another new team and another new outhalf/No 8 partnership.

The tour to the US & Canada is plenty of time for most of those lads.

JRant

Fireball07 wrote: »

In fairness, that hasn't been a problem for Murray this season. He's been getting to the rucks and moving the ball pretty quickly this year.

My main concern is that DK has a couple of weeks to mould him back into that mindset again.
He has improved but he's still taking that step every time and his passes are not as crisp as they should be. To be fair though at least he's stopped getting stuck at the bottom of every second ruck.

Teferi

JRant wrote: »

Will we see them given a chance?

I don't even think it really is an argument of allowing Zebo a chance. In Kidneys mind Zebo is probably already established in the setup so I think the argument of Zebo V Trimble is just an argument of whichever player you prefer.

I think an example of a younger player getting a real chance would be to take a step like dropping ROG and including one of the more talented 10's.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Depends how we're looking to beat South Africa. Murray might be the right choice.

I agree, there is an argument for Murray being the right choice. Would definitely help against the SA physicality.

JRant

jm08 wrote: »

I think there are probably enough enforced changes without adding any more.

Some of those will get a chance against Fiji (most likely Jackson & Marshall as they play regularly with each other).

Gilroy isn't a starter for Ulster this season. He needs to displace one of Trimble or Bowe.

I'd let Marmion play a bit more for Connacht before throwing him into another new team and another new outhalf/No 8 partnership.

The tour to the US & Canada is plenty of time for most of those lads.

Isn't that the real problem though, it's only through injury that players get a chance and this is wrong.
I'm not saying they should all be picked but as an Irish fan it's incredibly frustrating to see some players get picked on the back of 6 professional games while others spend years in the wilderness.

goreyguy

jm08 wrote: »

The tour to the US & Canada is plenty of time for most of those lads.

terrible mentality

nice_guy80

jm08 wrote: »

Juan de Jongh's try at the weekend. This is the pace and power that Ireland will be up against.

http://youtu.be/SZBJUDh709Y

the feed into the scrum was illegal

Teferi

nice_guy80 wrote: »

the feed into the scrum was illegal

Every feed into every scrum is illegal in the modern game.

I wish they policed it but they don't.