Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

shuffol

Think people are overstating Zebo's defensive frailties and Trimbles strength there, Zebo's come on massively this season and IMO he's been the most impressive back in Ireland so far. Trimble whilst been an excellent tackler is prone to his defensive lapses too.

JRant

Teferi wrote: »

I don't even think it really is an argument of allowing Zebo a chance. In Kidneys mind Zebo is probably already established in the setup so I think the argument of Zebo V Trimble is just an argument of whichever player you prefer.

I think an example of a younger player getting a real chance would be to take a step like dropping ROG and including one of the more talented 10's.



I agree, there is an argument for Murray being the right choice. Would definitely help against the SA physicality.

I agree 100% about Zebo, asI said already him or Trimble should depend on the opposition He's in the inner circle now though.
It really can't be good for team morale to see some players get in on the back of a handful of games while others have to sit around and wonder what exactly is selection based on.

Fireball07

Of course, talking about who deserves what and what Kidney decides are different things completely.

Zebo deserves a spot, and will probably be included. Henry deserves a spot, and might be included. Cave deserves a spot...I'm not sure what'll happen there...Jones not being called up was a bit of a surprise imo. Depends on what he thought of Bowe at 15 last week.

Teferi

JRant wrote: »

It really can't be good for team morale to see some players get in on the back of a handful of games while others have to sit around and wonder what exactly is selection based on.

Agreed, wouldn't be surprised to hear there was a lot of self-doubt within the camp. You see it when they come back to the Provinces, the difference is like night and day.

JRant

Fireball07 wrote: »

Of course, talking about who deserves what and what Kidney decides are different things completely.

Zebo deserves a spot, and will probably be included. Henry deserves a spot, and might be included. Cave deserves a spot...I'm not sure what'll happen there...Jones not being called up was a bit of a surprise imo. Depends on what he thought of Bowe at 15 last week.

I'd go one further and say if DK had the NZ backline at his disposal he'd tell them to kick the leather off the ball and have POC at first receiver as often as possible.

jm08

JRant wrote: »

Isn't that the real problem though, it's only through injury that players get a chance and this is wrong.
I'm not saying they should all be picked but as an Irish fan it's incredibly frustrating to see some players get picked on the back of 6 professional games while others spend years in the wilderness.

Pretty much every team uses injuries to blood players. A player can expect to spend about 25% of their career injured. If Tomas O'Leary hadn't been injured, Murray would probably not have got a chance. Zebo got his chance last year when Howlett got injured and took it. Gilroy had a great chance to nail down a starting spot with Ulster last year, but he didn't. No doubt either Bowe or Trimble will get injured again and Gilroy will get a chance.

molloyjh

Fireball07 wrote: »

Of course, talking about who deserves what and what Kidney decides are different things completely.

Zebo deserves a spot, and will probably be included. Henry deserves a spot, and might be included. Cave deserves a spot...I'm not sure what'll happen there...Jones not being called up was a bit of a surprise imo. Depends on what he thought of Bowe at 15 last week.

But doesn't this sum up a lot of people's issues? If the Munster player deserves a call up you can be sure he'll get it. If its another province you can't be. Murray should never have started a game in the RWC, Marshall is way ahead now of Murray 12-13 months ago. Yet there isn't a hope he'll feature in the AIs. It's grossly unfair on these lads who have done every bit as much, if not more, than some of the guys getting selected.

And this "he's not first choice for his province" argument is a great one now, but it applied every bit as much to DOC last season surely? It's one rule for some and a different for all the others. Sadly then the likes of Zebo becomes a focal point for that frustration.

totallegend

shuffol wrote: »

Think people are overstating Zebo's defensive frailties and Trimbles strength there, Zebo's come on massively this season and IMO he's been the most impressive back in Ireland so far. Trimble whilst been an excellent tackler is prone to his defensive lapses too.

Equally, people are understating Trimble's attacking abilities.

TBH I wouldn't care about Zebo being in the frame if I thought the same logic would be applied to all the other selections. But it's not, there's a clear bias going on and there has been since, oooh, late 2008.

JRant

Teferi wrote: »

Agreed, wouldn't be surprised to hear there was a lot of self-doubt within the camp. You see it when they come back to the Provinces, the difference is like night and day.

Unfortunately, thats seems to be the sad truth of the matter.
It's unfair on the players parachuted in as they don't pick the team but there has to some effect on the team morale.

Fireball07

molloyjh wrote: »

But doesn't this sum up a lot of people's issues? If the Munster player deserves a call up you can be sure he'll get it. If its another province you can't be. Murray should never have started a game in the RWC, Marshall is way ahead now of Murray 12-13 months ago. Yet there isn't a hope he'll feature in the AIs. It's grossly unfair on these lads who have done every bit as much, if not more, than some of the guys getting selected.

And this "he's not first choice for his province" argument is a great one now, but it applied every bit as much to DOC last season surely? It's one rule for some and a different for all the others. Sadly then the likes of Zebo becomes a focal point for that frustration.

To be fair, the likes of Dave Kearney and Tuohy were included in squads eventually.

We all have a problem with the way Kidney does things, I just don't think it's fair for Zebo to be ripped to pieces when he's actually been the form winger in the country. He deserves a spot now (and I do think if he was playing badly, Trimble would actually get in) and he shouldn't be getting the criticism that Kidney gets. It's not his fault.

As for the "first choice for the province" thing... DOC did actually play a couple of HC games before the 6N, so technically he was 1st choice. It would be similar to someone like Henderson being picked, I guess...he's not actually first choice but has played a lot of games.

It is actually different for people like Gilroy. If he can't get ahead of 2 IQ wingers at provincial level, then he shouldn't at international level. I think it's safe to assume that Anscombe has more of a clue than Kidney at this stage.

jm08

molloyjh wrote: »

But doesn't this sum up a lot of people's issues? If the Munster player deserves a call up you can be sure he'll get it. If its another province you can't be. Murray should never have started a game in the RWC, Marshall is way ahead now of Murray 12-13 months ago. Yet there isn't a hope he'll feature in the AIs. It's grossly unfair on these lads who have done every bit as much, if not more, than some of the guys getting selected.

And this "he's not first choice for his province" argument is a great one now, but it applied every bit as much to DOC last season surely? It's one rule for some and a different for all the others. Sadly then the likes of Zebo becomes a focal point for that frustration.

Marshall was dropped for Pienaar against Glasgow in the HCup after a MOTM performance against Castres for some unknown (unfair?) reason.

I'm not sure that throwing Marshall in between Sexton & Heislip against SA would be on, considering he has never played with either of them before.

The difference between DOC not starting for his province is that he already had 70+ caps and has been there and done that. Did Marshall even get a minute in the knock-out stages of the HCup last season?

JRant

jm08 wrote: »

Pretty much every team uses injuries to blood players. A player can expect to spend about 25% of their career injured. If Tomas O'Leary hadn't been injured, Murray would probably not have got a chance. Zebo got his chance last year when Howlett got injured and took it. Gilroy had a great chance to nail down a starting spot with Ulster last year, but he didn't. No doubt either Bowe or Trimble will get injured again and Gilroy will get a chance.

Murray went from 5th choice to starting a RWC QF on the back of what exactly?
D Kearney and Gilroy had great games for the Wolfhounds but Zebo side steps them both to make the team, on the back of what exactly?

All i'm suggesting is that players should able to make the team if they're playing out of their socks without the need for the incumbent to be injured. Fitzy was jettisoned from the panel when playing poorly, fair enough, but its a rare thing in this management setup

jm08

nice_guy80 wrote: »

the feed into the scrum was illegal

As are most scrum feeds.

totallegend

Fireball07 wrote: »

To be fair, the likes of Dave Kearney and Tuohy were included in squads eventually.

We all have a problem with the way Kidney does things, I just don't think it's fair for Zebo to be ripped to pieces when he's actually been the form winger in the country. He deserves a spot now (and I do think if he was playing badly, Trimble would actually get in) and he shouldn't be getting the criticism that Kidney gets. It's not his fault.

As for the "first choice for the province" thing... DOC did actually play a couple of HC games before the 6N, so technically he was 1st choice. It would be similar to someone like Henderson being picked, I guess...he's not actually first choice but has played a lot of games.

It is actually different for people like Gilroy. If he can't get ahead of 2 IQ wingers at provincial level, then he shouldn't at international level. I think it's safe to assume that Anscombe has more of a clue than Kidney at this stage.

Hang on now. No one is ripping Zebo to pieces. Everyone agrees he's playing well, it's the selection criteria that people here are applying and the fact that DK applies similar logic that is the issue. Don't cloud the issue.

DOC was NOT first choice for munster last season. He just wasn't.

Gilroy was first choice last season and played in a HC final. Surely Kidney was at least watching when he tore Munster to pieces in the QF. Where was his call up then? Even for the Wolfhounds earlier in the season?

I think the use of "eventually" in your post says it all. Tuohy in particular has had to slog his guts out for yonks to make it to the fringes of the squad while others have made it to the match 22 on the basis of a handful of decent showings.

jm08

JRant wrote: »

Murray went from 5th choice to starting a RWC QF on the back of what exactly?
D Kearney and Gilroy had great games for the Wolfhounds but Zebo side steps them both to make the team, on the back of what exactly?

All i'm suggesting is that players should able to make the team if they're playing out of their socks without the need for the incumbent to be injured. Fitzy was jettisoned from the panel when playing poorly, fair enough, but its a rare thing in this management setup

What got him on the plane was:
Completely outclassing Reddan in the Magners Final.
Doing fairly well in his debut (sub) against France.
Outclassing Boss in the game against Connacht in the warm-ups (both had a half).
The poor form of Tomas O'Leary.
He went out as 3rd choice SH. His superior defence and his partnership with ROG got him the start against Australia.

Just for the record Murray has 9 caps - and 6 of those have been with Sexton. They need a bit of time to settle. There were other options for Luke Fitz (Trimble & McFadden).

edit: Kearney was selected ahead of Zebo for the 6Ns game (Kearney & Zebo both scored tries in the Saxons game).
Kearney was unavailable for the trip to NZ.

Fireball07

totallegend wrote: »

Hang on now. No one is ripping Zebo to pieces. Everyone agrees he's playing well, it's the selection criteria that people here are applying and the fact that DK applies similar logic that is the issue. Don't cloud the issue.

DOC was NOT first choice for munster last season. He just wasn't.

Gilroy was first choice last season and played in a HC final. Surely Kidney was at least watching when he tore Munster to pieces in the QF. Where was his call up then? Even for the Wolfhounds earlier in the season?

I think the use of "eventually" in your post says it all. Tuohy in particular has had to slog his guts out for yonks to make it to the fringes of the squad while others have made it to the match 22 on the basis of a handful of decent showings.

But it's not really... people are going a bit over the top in trying to prove that Trimble is better than Zebo. Someone said that Zebo did nothing against Leinster and others are saying that he's never done anything against top opposition when, in reality, he's played really well against everyone he's played against this year.

As for DOC...the fact is he did play those games. I don't think he should have been starting for Ireland but I'm sure that's the logic Kidney was using.


And I'm not trying to say that Gilroy shouldn't have been included... he should have been. And Henry should start, and Cave, and Jackson should be benching, Marshall should at least be, I'd have McSharry in the squad, likewise Denis Buckley.


That is not what I'm arguing...all I'm saying is that Zebo deserves to start ahead of Trimble.


And it's not because he plays for Munster or anything stupid like that...I want Ireland to win more than anything. If I thought Trimble was better than Zebo or that Zebo wasn't deserving of his place, I would say that. But he is.

tolosenc

I think what people are saying is that although Zebo fully deserves his place, it seems to be the case that a Munster product need only do the minimum to merit a call up to get it, whereas others require superhuman effort (SOB had an ERC Player of the Year season, and still he was ignored for most of it) to even be noticed. The kind of nonsense that saw Kilcoyne name dropped after 1 Munster appearance, ahead of equally experienced and talented options at the other 3 provinces who'll never get a look in under Kindey. Murray at the WC was another.

Deccie has tough standards that need to be met in order to get into the team, which may be good or bad, but it's the croneyism of lowering the bar for the divil you know that infuriates people.

tolosenc

jm08 wrote: »

What got him on the plane was:
Completely outclassing Reddan in the Magners Final.
Doing fairly well in his debut (sub) against France.
Outclassing Boss in the game against Connacht in the warm-ups (both had a half).
The poor form of Tomas O'Leary.
He went out as 3rd choice SH. His superior defence and his partnership with ROG got him the start against Australia.

Just for the record Murray has 9 caps - and 6 of those have been with Sexton. They need a bit of time to settle. There were other options for Luke Fitz (Trimble & McFadden).

edit: Kearney was selected ahead of Zebo for the 6Ns game (Kearney & Zebo both scored tries in the Saxons game).
Kearney was unavailable for the trip to NZ.

So many factual inaccuracies in 1 post.

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

Hang on now. No one is ripping Zebo to pieces. Everyone agrees he's playing well, it's the selection criteria that people here are applying and the fact that DK applies similar logic that is the issue. Don't cloud the issue.

DOC was NOT first choice for munster last season. He just wasn't.

Gilroy was first choice last season and played in a HC final. Surely Kidney was at least watching when he tore Munster to pieces in the QF. Where was his call up then? Even for the Wolfhounds earlier in the season?

I think the use of "eventually" in your post says it all. Tuohy in particular has had to slog his guts out for yonks to make it to the fringes of the squad while others have made it to the match 22 on the basis of a handful of decent showings.

DOC didn't start any of the NZ games (and Tuohy was very poor in the first test, but he still got to start in the 2nd test).

I also seem to remember that Tuohy's form was poor enough at the end of last year leading into the 6Ns - he may have been coming back from an injury then.

jm08

tolosenc wrote: »

So many factual inaccuracies in 1 post.

Which of the 3 facts that I stated are wrong

1. The number of starting international caps Murray has.
2. Kearney made a 6Ns 22.
3. Kearney was unavailable for the tour to NZ.

(In case you don't know, the rest is opinion, not fact).

totallegend

Fireball07 wrote: »

But it's not really... people are going a bit over the top in trying to prove that Trimble is better than Zebo. Someone said that Zebo did nothing against Leinster and others are saying that he's never done anything against top opposition when, in reality, he's played really well against everyone he's played against this year.

As for DOC...the fact is he did play those games. I don't think he should have been starting for Ireland but I'm sure that's the logic Kidney was using.


And I'm not trying to say that Gilroy shouldn't have been included... he should have been. And Henry should start, and Cave, and Jackson should be benching, Marshall should at least be, I'd have McSharry in the squad, likewise Denis Buckley.


That is not what I'm arguing...all I'm saying is that Zebo deserves to start ahead of Trimble.


And it's not because he plays for Munster or anything stupid like that...I want Ireland to win more than anything. If I thought Trimble was better than Zebo or that Zebo wasn't deserving of his place, I would say that. But he is.

That's all fair enough, and it was me who was questioning the level of opposition Zebo had performed against, but overall I agree with the above. Apart from the DOC question, he may have played 2 HC games but by the time Six Nations came around he was firmly on the Munster bench so you're wrong there.

Again, I wouldn't be so exercised by this if I didn't know Kidney was thinking the same thing. It's impossible to deny that some provinces are more equal than others in his eyes.

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

Apart from the DOC question, he may have played 2 HC games but by the time Six Nations came around he was firmly on the Munster bench so you're wrong there.

More than likely the reason DOC was preferred to Tuohy for the 6Ns could have been down to Tuohy not being involved in the world cup he would not have had a lot of time to learn on the calls and develop a partnership with POC. Ryan, POC & DOC are used to playing with each other.

totallegend

jm08 wrote: »

More than likely the reason DOC was preferred to Tuohy for the 6Ns could have been down to Tuohy not being involved in the world cup he would not have had a lot of time to learn on the calls and develop a partnership with POC. Ryan, POC & DOC are used to playing with each other.

Riiiight.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Which of the 3 facts that I stated are wrong

1. The number of starting international caps Murray has.
2. Kearney made a 6Ns 22.
3. Kearney was unavailable for the tour to NZ.

(In case you don't know, the rest is opinion, not fact).

Well you said Murray's defense and partnership with ROG got him the start against Australia. Sexton and Reddan started against Australia. Which was coincidentally the last time we managed to beat a top 8 nation.

Fishooks12

jm08 wrote: »

More than likely the reason DOC was preferred to Tuohy for the 6Ns could have been down to Tuohy not being involved in the world cup he would not have had a lot of time to learn on the calls and develop a partnership with POC. Ryan, POC & DOC are used to playing with each other.

Ah come on, you don't really believe that do you?

leftleg

Ive seen some "mute whisperings" that Cian Healy will not make the SA game

Fishooks12

leftleg wrote: »

Ive seen some "mute whisperings" that Cian Healy will not make the SA game

Jesus. He's someone we cannot afford to lose

bamboozle

the most frustrating thing about Kidney's tenure is his consistent failure to use the November internationals correctly. They should be used as an ideal opportunity to ease young players into the international squad in low pressure international games. especially after the world cup it is the perfect opportunity now to wave goodbye to the likes of DOC & Darcy and start planning towards the next world cup.

3 years back in the Nov internationals SOB & Ross only got a look in for the match against fiji, while hayes et al were still knocking about the squad.

What worries me more is that i fear he will be reappointed in June.

For what its worth Zebo's form this season has been excellent and i was a knocker last season. I'd start him ahead of Trimble and i just dont trust Trimble at international level, his kicking and hands are poor for this level. Both will probably start though in a back 3 with either Bowe or Earls at 15 with either Bowe or Earls at 13

irishbucsfan

I agree that we should use the AIs to try things most years, but I don't think it's an option this time. I can understand the desire to ensure we aren't a 3rd seed in 2015.

Fishooks12

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I agree that we should use the AIs to try things most years, but I don't think it's an option this time. I can understand the desire to ensure we aren't a 3rd seed in 2015.

like there really is no-one we have that's ready to step in ahead of Darcy, especially now that BOD is out of what is already an inexperienced backline.

And I really wouldn't begrudge DOC his spot either given his good form