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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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    #6482
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Benny Cake wrote: »
    Good performances do not a captain make. O'Gara is a case in point. He has countless MOTM awards, a grand slam, 120+ Irish Caps, 220+ Munster caps, Lions tours, widely acclaimed as one of the greatest European players of the Heineken cup era etc, etc.
    He has single handedly dragged Munster to victory with numerous last minutes penalties/drop goals BUT he is a terrible captain.
    There are certain intangibles when it comes to leadership. I don't dispute Heaslips greatness as a player, I simply don't rate him as a captain.

    Well that's fair enough and it is largely subjective, but you said earlier:
    I can't recall a single occasion when he grabbed a game by the scruff of the neck when it was in the balance and provide an example for his teammates....

    Which I think is just plain wrong


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    #6483
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    jm08 wrote: »
    I think it was really stupid to knee Richie McCaw bearing in mind that Ireland were on the ABs tryline.

    He didn't display a cool head.

    Smacking someone in the face with 10 minutes left and only one score ahead in a crucial HEC game isn't too bright either.

    But it's rugby and sometimes players do stupid things and take the laws into their own hands. It in no way indicates that someone is a bad captain especially when it sticks out like a sore thumb in a career of excellent discipline.


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    #6484
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Tox56 wrote: »
    And it wasn't the greatest idea for POC to get sent off with 10 mins to go in a crucial H Cup game, but I still think he's a great captain with a "cool head"

    In fairness, he wasn't looking at what he was doing - and I think it was his first game back after along a long layoff (and Munster won the game anyway) - which reminds me about the timing of Heaslip's red card - it was 15 minutes into the game.


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    #6485
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,314 ✭✭✭✭phog


    GerM wrote: »
    Smacking someone in the face with 10 minutes left and only one score ahead in a crucial HEC game isn't too bright either.

    But it's rugby and sometimes players do stupid things and take the laws into their own hands. It in no way indicates that someone is a bad captain especially when it sticks out like a sore thumb in a career of excellent discipline.

    Ah here, this thread is going downhill fast. One was provoked, O'Connell was clearly being held back the other was simply outrage and red mist.


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    #6486
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    Benny Cake wrote: »
    Good performances do not a captain make. O'Gara is a case in point. He has countless MOTM awards, a grand slam, 120+ Irish Caps, 220+ Munster caps, Lions tours, widely acclaimed as one of the greatest European players of the Heineken cup era etc, etc.
    He has single handedly dragged Munster to victory with numerous last minutes penalties/drop goals BUT he is a terrible captain.
    There are certain intangibles when it comes to leadership. I don't dispute Heaslips greatness as a player, I simply don't rate him as a captain.

    You said you couldn't think of a single example of him showing mettle or grabbing a game by the scruff as a measure of captaincy so I provided those examples.

    I don't buy into the intangible theory. People have leadership qualities or they don't. It should be someone that commands respect. Someone that can lead by example. Someone that is a good decision maker and communicate regularly and clearly. The non-rating of him as a captain is baseless when he has shown all these qualities to be undefeated as a captain including HEC wins and down in Thomond. He's actually much better at these things than BOD who is more reliant on his inspirational talent and aura.

    ROG is a poor captain because he clearly plays poorly with the mantle and is affected by the additional responsibility. It's the same reason I don't want Sexton near the gig. There's a danger of implosion.


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    #6487
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    Heaslip should be the captain if POC isn't. Experienced, leads from the front, good communicator, and an automatic pick. What else do you want? There are no other candidates as strong.


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    #6488
    GerM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    phog wrote: »
    Ah here, this thread is going downhill fast. One was provoked, O'Connell was clearly being held back the other was simply outrage and red mist.

    I was highlighting the futility of trying to pinpoint a one isolated error in a player's career, phog. I'm not interested in debating the details of either incident.


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    #6489
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    jm08 wrote: »
    In fairness, he wasn't looking at what he was doing - and I think it was his first game back after along a long layoff (and Munster won the game anyway) - which reminds me about the timing of Heaslip's red card - it was 15 minutes into the game.

    I've highlighted the things that are totally irrelevant, there is never a good time to get sent off, and Munster winning the game anyway inspite of the red card is of no relevance either.

    Why do so many Munster fans seem to dislike Heaslip so much? He always got more stick than most Leinster players ("Houdini"), and there are people on MFs proposing POM and even Cian Healy for captain ahead of him.


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    #6490
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    GerM wrote: »
    Smacking someone in the face with 10 minutes left and only one score ahead in a crucial HEC game isn't too bright either.

    But it's rugby and sometimes players do stupid things and take the laws into their own hands. It in no way indicates that someone is a bad captain especially when it sticks out like a sore thumb in a career of excellent discipline.

    I think he probably felt more comfortable when POC & Rory Best are around (they were both missing that day).

    I also think that Leinster like to always have one of Leo or Shane Jennings on the pitch. Heislip has captained Leinster about 8 times in about 7/8 seasons - Peter O'Mahony has captained Munster more than that last season (and I wouldn't have POM as Ireland captain just yet - he is a bit hot headed still).


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    #6491
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    jm08 wrote: »
    I think he probably felt more comfortable when POC & Rory Best are around (they were both missing that day).

    I also think that Leinster like to always have one of Leo or Shane Jennings on the pitch. Heislip has captained Leinster about 8 times in about 7/8 seasons - Peter O'Mahony has captained Munster more than that last season (and I wouldn't have POM as Ireland captain just yet - he is a bit hot headed still).

    Only because POC plays less games than Cullen...


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    #6492
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    .ak wrote: »
    Only because POC plays less games than Cullen...

    POC rarely plays for Munster in the Magners - Mick O'Driscoll was usually the captain in his absence up to last season and POM was selected as captain last year ahead of him.


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    #6493
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,314 ✭✭✭✭phog


    GerM wrote: »
    I was highlighting the futility of trying to pinpoint a one isolated error in a player's career, phog. I'm not interested in debating the details of either incident.

    Fighting fire with fire usualy gets a result in threads like this :eek:


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    #6494
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    jm08 wrote: »
    POC rarely plays for Munster - Mick O'Driscoll was usually the captain in his absence up to last season.

    My point exactly. It's hardly a like for like comparison, is it?


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    #6495
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Why do so many Munster fans seem to dislike Heaslip so much? He always got more stick than most Leinster players ("Houdini"), and there are people on MFs proposing POM and even Cian Healy for captain ahead of him.

    A portion of Munster fans (not all obviously) have had a completely bizarre view on Heaslip over the years. Initially it was that he spent too much time on the wing, carrying and not enough time doing dirty work. His game changed then and he found himself buried in rucks non-stop and racking up a huge tackle count - then he wasn't doing do enough carrying. He literally could not win. I guess he'll just have to take comfort in all his medals and caps and Lions caps and the likes.


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    #6496
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    .ak wrote: »
    Only because POC plays less games than Cullen...

    And Heaslip is always away with internationals. If the internationals are home and Cullen is unavailable, BOD will step in. Only when both are unavailable will Heaslip get the job (although I think there has been a few exceptions).


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    #6497
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    .ak wrote: »
    Only because POC plays less games than Cullen...

    POM also had ROG, MOD, DOC and Howlett - all distinguished captains - vying with him for captaincy when POC wasn't around last year yet he won out. I'm by no means pushing POM ahead of Heaslip for Irish captaincy, but were Heaslip a great captain as suggested, Cullen would not be starting for Leinster.


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    #6498
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,314 ✭✭✭✭phog


    danthefan wrote: »
    A portion of Munster fans (not all obviously) have had a completely bizarre view on Heaslip over the years. Initially it was that he spent too much time on the wing, carrying and not enough time doing dirty work. His game changed then and he found himself buried in rucks non-stop and racking up a huge tackle count - then he wasn't doing do enough carrying. He literally could not win. I guess he'll just have to take comfort in all his medals and caps and Lions caps and the likes.

    Very similar a portion of Leinster fans disliking ROG and he can have similar comforts in what he has achieved.

    As you say, bizarre really.


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    #6499
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    POM also had ROG, MOD, DOC and Howlett - all distinguished captains - vying with him for captaincy when POC wasn't around last year yet he won out. I'm by no means pushing POM ahead of Heaslip for Irish captaincy, but were Heaslip a great captain as suggested, Cullen would not be starting for Leinster.

    Leinster, like Munster now, want a captain who will be there throughout the season and won't be leaving during international breaks.


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    #6500
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    phog wrote: »
    Very similar a portion of Leinster fans disliking ROG and he can have similar comforts in what he has achieved.

    As you say, bizarre really.

    The reason for that is more obvious, Heaslip less so.


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    #6501
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    POM also had ROG, MOD, DOC and Howlett - all distinguished captains - vying with him for captaincy when POC wasn't around last year yet he won out. I'm by no means pushing POM ahead of Heaslip for Irish captaincy, but were Heaslip a great captain as suggested, Cullen would not be starting for Leinster.

    Heaslip - not captain material.

    DOC - distinguished captain.

    You really are completely ridiculous.


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    #6502
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Why do so many Munster fans seem to dislike Heaslip so much? He always got more stick than most Leinster players ("Houdini"), and there are people on MFs proposing POM and even Cian Healy for captain ahead of him.

    Fancy boots exhibits an absence of honesty, having a restaurant does not require the same passion as owning a bar and him only growing a mustache displays a lack of commitment and pride that the likes of Horan show in their full beard growing. He just cant compete with the liginds.


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    #6503
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,931 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    jm08 wrote: »
    It was a comment not to be taken seriously!
    Don't worry about it. We don't take anything you say seriously.
    [Jackass] wrote: »
    He's played in two Heineken Cup finals and multiple big games, such as Thomond Park, when he came on to a close game and through his moving of backline and drop goal, was the talisman to win us the game.

    Played multiple Heineken Cup and never put a foot wrong...Excelled with Ireland A's also...not sure Jackson has been in an A squad before.
    It's hard to argue that Madigan shouldn't be there.
    GerM wrote: »
    Why was the flag waving in the footage, Captain? There's no wind on the moon! ANSWER ME THAT!
    Hot air from a Kidney press conference perchance?
    Swiwi wrote: »
    I feel like my countryman is really being set up for a big fall. One minute struggling to make the Hurricanes match-day 22, add in a few decent games for Taranaki in a club-level competition, and the next minute Declan has him in the Irish squad. I doubt he can believe it himself. I hope he makes some sort of go of it, because he's had a charmed ride to international rugby.

    It's totally daft and very unfair on Bent and also on the likes of Andress who plays every week in the AP. Still, why should any of us be surprised at the deranged thoughts of Declan. It's like a Father Ted script.


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    #6504
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    danthefan wrote: »
    A portion of Munster fans (not all obviously) have had a completely bizarre view on Heaslip over the years. Initially it was that he spent too much time on the wing, carrying and not enough time doing dirty work. His game changed then and he found himself buried in rucks non-stop and racking up a huge tackle count - then he wasn't doing do enough carrying. He literally could not win. I guess he'll just have to take comfort in all his medals and caps and Lions caps and the likes.

    I think great comfort in his Lions caps. I don't think the folks on Munsterfans (or probably Leinsterfans for that matter) were too impressed about his answer to what the highlight of his rugby career was!


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    #6505
    durkadurka
    Registered Users Posts: 6,207 ✭✭✭durkadurka


    Tox56 wrote: »
    And Heaslip is always away with internationals. If the internationals are home and Cullen is unavailable, BOD will step in. Only when both are unavailable will Heaslip get the job (although I think there has been a few exceptions).

    No. Over the last two years or so, If its a big game , and Cullen doesn't play, then heaslip is captain.


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    #6506
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    danthefan wrote: »
    Heaslip - not captain material.

    DOC - distinguished captain.

    You really are completely ridiculous.

    Well captaining the Lions midweek is something that not many players get to do. And again, I didn't say that Heaslip wasn't captain material.

    I appreciate the personal abuse, but it might be better appreciated better on MFs where you've spent thousands of posts perfecting the art. Its a great measure of your character.


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    #6507
    TheGoldenAges
    Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭TheGoldenAges


    Hey look it's another Leinster vs Munster debate, can't we all just be friends?

    On Topic: Think Heaslip will be a fine captain but I still think POC will be fit so he'll get the captaincy.


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    #6508
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I'm not a fan of the idea of Heaslip as captain.

    I'm very sure it shouldn't be POM though. Not many great candidates.


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    #6509
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I'm not a fan of the idea of Heaslip as captain.

    I'm very sure it shouldn't be POM though. Not many great candidates.


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    #6510
    danthefan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    And again, I didn't say that Heaslip wasn't captain material.

    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    Heaslip ... I wouldn't really put him down as great captain material

    Are you lying or can you just not remember what you posted a few minutes ago?


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    #6511
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I'm not a fan of the idea of Heaslip as captain.

    Why? No one seems to be able to give a rational reason as to why they aren't a fan of him as a captain.


This discussion has been closed.
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