Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Hang on. Where did Kidney ever say he was selecting Earls as a full back?.

Either that or he was selecting no full back....

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

Just reading the comments from Kidney yesterday, I think the team is going to be:

Jones
Bowe
Earls
D'Arcy
Zebo
Sexton
Murray
Healy (if fit, Court if not)
Strauss
Ross
POC (if fit, Tuohy if not)
Ryan
Ferris (if fit, POM if not)
POM (Henry if Ferris not fit)
Heaslip

Bench; Cronin, Court/Kilcoyne, Bent, DOC, Henry, Reddan, ROG, Trimble

This is exactly what I would pick against South Africa personally. Except for switching Henry/POM and Trimble/Zebo. I'm hoping Kidney does both those things.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Hang on. Where did Kidney ever say he was selecting Earls as a full back?.

Good point, but in the initial squad he was the ONLY player named that could play 15.

Swiwi

Help me choose lads: Munster v Cardiff or Ulster v Edinburgh? Munster gives me a chance to evaluate Felix Jones, Ulster Paul Marshall.

Fishooks12

Swiwi wrote: »

Help me choose lads: Munster v Cardiff or Ulster v Edinburgh? Munster gives me a chance to evaluate Felix Jones, Ulster Paul Marshall.

Well between those two players Jones is far more likely to be involved next week

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

Good point, but in the initial squad he was the ONLY player named that could play 15.

And there was 1 tighthead named as well.

But the very first thing he said was that it wasn't the complete squad.

jimbomalley

Winters wrote: »

Jesus no, what a sight!

Be open and truthful. Explain his selections. He's very condescending in his answers. As someone else says, he speaks in riddles. At least PdV had the excuse of English not being his first answer.

Warren gatland, I believe something like "he speaks in riddles and cliches"

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And there was 1 tighthead named as well.

But the very first thing he said was that it wasn't the complete squad.

Yeah but at least there was 1 tighthead, if he didn't consider Earls at fullback he brought 0 fullbacks.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And there was 1 tighthead named as well.

But the very first thing he said was that it wasn't the complete squad.

And he then filled it out on the 28th with Cronin, Gilroy, Jackson, Marshall, TOH, Bent and Fitzpatrick. None of those are full-backs either. He only added an actual full-back when BOD was ruled out. So he obviously viewed Earls as the FB and the back-up 13, which meant that when Earls had to fill in at 13 he needed to draft in someone for FB.

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And there was 1 tighthead named as well
But the very first thing he said was that it wasn't the complete squad.

See, we get ourselves tied up in knots on boards.ie about the squads that Kidney names, but he NEVER sticks to naming his match-day 22 from the larger training squad.
Hence, I think we will see Jones lining out against SA. Although if it were up to me, of all the provincial full-backs this weekend, I'd pick Dave Kearney as the best of them (but then I've never seen Henshaw or the Ulster dude).

GerM

Photos from yesterday's session seem to indicate that the front five that are working together are Court, Strauss, Ross, Ryan and Tuohy. Bent also packed down with those 4.

At this moment, I'd be expecting Court, Strauss, Ross, Tuohy, Ryan, Ferris, POM and Heaslip in the pack.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

And he then filled it out on the 28th with Cronin, Gilroy, Jackson, Marshall, TOH, Bent and Fitzpatrick. None of those are full-backs either. He only added an actual full-back when BOD was ruled out. So he obviously viewed Earls as the FB and the back-up 13, which meant that when Earls had to fill in at 13 he needed to draft in someone for FB.

Or he wanted to give Felix Jones more of an opportunity to prove his fitness before deciding who to officially add to the squad beteeen himself and Hurley (the only two IQ natural 15s playing in yhe country)? At no point did he say the squad was complete. You are assuming he wanted Earls to play 15 at all.

I don't know what people want from him here. I don't like him but it's incredibly frustrating that people jump to conclusions over his squads, when his squads are generally pretty solid.

I think he's spot on if he picks Earls and Jones. Earls is not a good 15. He's our best 13 (and imo it's not even that close between him and Cave).

So pick an actual full back and pick our best players in their best positions, which includes not picking POM at 7.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Or he wanted to give Felix Jones more of an opportunity to prove his fitness before deciding who to officially add to the squad beteeen himself and Hurley (the only two IQ natural 15s playing in yhe country)? At no point did he say the squad was complete. You are assuming he wanted Earls to play 15 at all.

I don't know what people want from him here. I don't like him but it's incredibly frustrating that people jump to conclusions over his squads, when his squads are generally pretty solid.

I think he's spot on if he picks Earls and Jones. Earls is not a good 15. He's our best 13 (and imo it's not even that close between him and Cave).

So pick an actual full back and pick our best players in their best positions, which includes not picking POM at 7.

Given that he played Earls at FB against England in the 2011 6 Nations it's really not that much of a leap. And if he wanted to see more from Jones before making up his mind why not add Hurley on the 28th as well. He'd seen Jones at that point. What changed between the 28th and the 31st? BOD being unavailable is about the only thing I can think of.

Honestly this isn't just some irrational reaction. It's based on fairly reasonable analysis of the situation.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Given that he played Earls at FB against England in the 2011 6 Nations it's really not that much of a leap. And if he wanted to see more from Jones before making up his mind why not add Hurley on the 28th as well. He'd seen Jones at that point. What changed between the 28th and the 31st? BOD being unavailable is about the only thing I can think of.

Honestly this isn't just some irrational reaction. It's based on fairly reasonable analysis of the situation.

It's not. the injury meant he needed both anyway.

I don't see the problem anyway. Earls is our next best 13. It makes a lot more sense to play him there.

Lelantos

Tox56 wrote: »

Watch somone like Lancaster or Schmidt when they're interviewed, informative and enthusastic, and much more full of life in general when compared to someone like Kidney.

Kidney can do what he likes in front of the media and his lack of charisma isn't important in the bigger picture, but it would be nice to have a coach who was a little more open.

Wouldn't exactly call Schmidt camera friendly to be truthful. But I don't think it matters a jot. If Deccie was winning games & playing great rugby I don't think anyone would really care if he came out & did Marcel Marceau impersonations

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's not. the injury meant he needed both anyway.

I don't see the problem anyway. Earls is our next best 13. It makes a lot more sense to play him there.

I never said he shouldn't play 13. I'd agree with you. I was talking about the manner in which Kidney went about selecting the squad, particularly the FB position.

If he'd waited until after the games this weekend you could make the point that he was looking at Jones before making the call between himself and Hurley. However when he added players to the squad after last weekends game he didn't include a FB. It was only when BOD was forced to pull out that he did. Had he really seen enough on Monday and Tuesday to make the call?

If you're making the point that he needed both Hurley and Jones anyway why hasn't he named Jones?

Either we need 2 specialists or we need 1 and have a back-up available. If we need 2 why don't we have 2? If we have a back-up available why wait until Wednesday to name Hurley? The only logical conclusion is that Earls was the either the back-up or first choice, but isn't available to be any more due to Dricos injury. So Hurley got drafted in. Does that make him first choice? Or are we going to wait and see how Jones does today? Why not name both on Sunday or Wednesday and release Jones to Munster for game time and decide on who is first choice then?

Cpt_Blackbeard

I think we'll see a backline of:
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Zebo
12. D'Arcy
13. Earls
14. Trimble
15. Bowe

Considering our current options and the opposition, it would probably be the best option. Moving Earls to 15 and Cave to 13 will only serve to weaken our centre and back three units. Playing Earls at 13 will ensure that we play our strongest centre pairing and only the back three will be weakened through the shifting of Bowe to 15. I wouldn't be upset to see Cave included at 13, but I don't feel he has the attributes to be a good international. He is a smart player, but he has no brilliant qualities; Ulster's Jennings.

irishbucsfan

I don't know what influences these decisions.

Last season Devin Toner was training with Ireland throughout the 6 Nations and was being considered for selection and yet he was never named in a squad. Kidney clearly doesn't like having to name squads publically, which is fair enough because it is quite limiting.

All that we know is that Declan Kidney named an original squad and never made any indication about whether any of them were being considered for 15. He said straight away that he would be adding players and made specific reference to full back and tight head, even saying "obviously." So quite clearly he wasn't finished with 15s. For all we know he was going to pick Bowe at 15 with Earls on the wing.

He needed another 15 when we lost BOD so he called up a full back. Doesn't mean he's going to be involved at all though. I don't know if Jones is training with them or not but he's clearly in consideration.

Why does it even matter?

leftleg

Lelantos wrote: »

Wouldn't exactly call Schmidt camera friendly to be truthful. But I don't think it matters a jot. If Deccie was winning games & playing great rugby I don't think anyone would really care if he came out & did Marcel Marceau impersonations

Yeah but hes not winning international matches and were playing dirt so yeah the kidney riddles do generally piss people off so your point is completely irrelevant

bilston

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I think we'll see a backline of:
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Zebo
12. D'Arcy
13. Earls
14. Trimble
15. Bowe

Considering our current options and the opposition, it would probably be the best option. Moving Earls to 15 and Cave to 13 will only serve to weaken our centre and back three units. Playing Earls at 13 will ensure that we play our strongest centre pairing and only the back three will be weakened through the shifting of Bowe to 15. I wouldn't be upset to see Cave included at 13, but I don't feel he has the attributes to be a good international. He is a smart player, but he has no brilliant qualities; Ulster's Jennings.

People say these things about Cave...maybe they're right...but the point he's never been given a chance. Until he's had a couple of starts I don't think anyone can really pass judgement on him as an international player. Jennings must have had over 20 caps for Ireland so the comparison is probably a little unfair at this stage. You may be right but we don't know.

Foxtrol

molloyjh wrote: »

The only logical conclusion...

Declan Kidney and logical...

.ak

The Earls vs Cave thing is pure academic and opinion based. To say 'Earls/Cave is the 2nd best 13' is based on nothing more than Earls has played more in the green 13 shirt than Cave. Which is a tad unfair considering the lack of game time that Cave has been given.

Also IBF, to say Earls is not a good 15 is harsh. His best game ever in a green shirt was at 15. MoTM stuff.

For me, getting both Earls and Cave on the field is a bonus. Having Earls and Jones/Hurley not so much. The latter two are not international standard imo. (Atleast not yet in regards to Jones).

Tox56

Earls was given plenty of opportunities to prove himself as an international player at 13, and Cave has been given the exact opposite treatment. We're starting to see what Earls can bring as an international centre, but we have no idea about Cave, and we never will unless he gets a few games there.

irishbucsfan

I agree that Cave should be looked at in a green shirt, but not in a crucial game against one of the best teams in the world.

I also don't see how Cave fits into a game plan that can beat South Africa either.

Felix Jones on the other hand has looked excellent at international level in the past. He doesn't have to be as threatening with the ball in hand, again I don't see that as important against South Africa, he just needs to bring an accomplished knowledge of positional play at the full back position to take the kicking options away from them with strong coverage. Hurley either, if Jones is unable to prove his fitness. This is not a time to risk a positionally naive player in the back 3.


You have to keep in mind the game plan. This is mostly a horses for courses selection as this is a game we need to win. I'm not so much concerned about being a 3rd seed as I am about losing the opportunity to test players against Argentina (I don't think a performance against Fiji will hold as much weight).

My game plan, as naive as I am, would be to give them absolutely no ground in midfield or out wide. Make them keep the ball tight and kick it. Lambie will probably play 10 and he is a huge weakness of their if we can force him to kick it (his tactical kicking and decision making are atrocious imo). Similarly when we have possession, I don't expect to get much clean ball, nor do I expect to be able to make a huge amount of ground out wide. So we need to pick a stronger kicking team to win that battle. Murray at scrum half means we have his box kicking (which is excellent) and Trimble out wide means we have probably the best kick chaser in Ireland imo. Then you look at full back where you want to have an experienced 15 positionally. It's no use picking a 15 who can join the line and make breaks in phase 7 or 8 because we just aren't going to get there nearly enough.

If we defend properly and the forwards put them under pressure, whoever is at 15 will spend his afternoon receiving kicks and needs to be able to field them comfortable (most importantly) and also use the ball well. If I was picking the squad I would have gotten down on my hands and knees to Geordan Murphy and offered him a full testimonial or something. After that I would be choosing between Felix Jones, Denis Hurley and Niall Morris.

My team would be:

Healy/Court, Strauss, Ross
Strongest possible scrummagers is absolutely essential. Also players with plenty of experience in the lineout for lifting (Strauss' throwing is hopefully OK)
POC/DOC, Ryan
Again strong scrummagers as well as very experienced lineout operators to win our own ball. Also all very active in defense.
Ferris/POM, Henry, Heaslip
Very strong back row. They have to be physically imposing against the Springboks or else we'll have to concede the breakdown. I wouldn't pick Tuohy because I feel his biggest asset is his ball carrying and that won't make much ground against South Africa beef.

Murray, Sexton
Murray not the most fluid scrum half but he does possess a good kicking game which will be important. Sexton an absolute no brainer.
D'Arcy, Earls
The strongest center pairing possible in defense.
Trimble, Bowe, Jones/Hurley
Trimble selected because of his kick chasing as well as his strong defense. Picking Zebo would be pointless because we just won't be able to play to his strengths out wide. Zebo has looked great this season though so if either winger isn't available I'd have no issue with him starting. 15 explained above.

And the final score would definitely be 19-9 to us as well, by the way. And there would be 50,432 in attendance.

Tox56

I have to say I agree. Cave could potentially be as good a defender as Earls, or better, or worse. We just don't know at international level, and we might as well go with what we know v the Boks, try things later. The problem comes if we don't test Cave at all, then we really will have no options in the important games.

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Felix Jones on the other hand has looked excellent at international level in the past. .

He has on his bollocks, in fairness. He has two sub appearances in the RWC warm-up games against Scotland and France, his total contribution was one kick and chase in the game in France that went nowhere.
He was poor in his one and only start against France in the Aviva, he wasn't the only one by any means but he did not play well that day. Focus on his actual performance was completely deflected by his injury.Maybe he'll hack it at international level, maybe he won't, but no way has he looked excellent to date. He looked pretty ordinary at Rabo level last season when he came back from injury, I think we're all agreed on that.
Jones, for me, is just another player who's been given an armchair ride to national selection while others have been producing the goods week in, week out at provincial level for years with no tangible reward from Kidney.</p></p>

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

He has on his bollocks, in fairness. He has two sub appearances in the RWC warm-up games against Scotland and France, his total contribution was one kick and chase in the game in France that went nowhere.
He was poor in his one and only start against France in the Aviva, he wasn't the only one by any means but he did not play well that day. Focus on his actual performance was completely deflected by his injury.Maybe he'll hack it at international level, maybe he won't, but no way has he looked excellent to date. He looked pretty ordinary at Rabo level last season when he came back from injury, I think we're all agreed on that.
Jones, for me, is just another player who's been given an armchair ride to national selection while others have been producing the goods week in, week out at provincial level for years with no tangible reward from Kidney.</p></p>

Well I thought he was very good, excellent might be overstating it. And I had gone into those games arguing that he didn't deserve to be there ahead of Murphy.

Which 15 has been producing the goods week in week out?

Principal Skinner

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well I thought he was very good, excellent might be overstating it. And I had gone into those games arguing that he didn't deserve to be there ahead of Murphy.

Which 15 has been producing the goods week in week out?

Murphy..... He's consistently one of Leicesters best players. Felix jones will never be at the level of Murphy never mind Kearney. At the end of the day he looks good next to the rest of Munsters full back options

Lelantos

Principal Skinner wrote: »

Murphy..... He's consistently one of Leicesters best players. Felix jones will never be at the level of Murphy never mind Kearney. At the end of the day he looks good next to the rest of Munsters full back options

And that's more bollocks

Mr.Opti

.ak wrote: »

They were the two picks that took me a while to mull over. For me, Trimble is a big unit and will suit the SA game perfectly. He's got a great boot on him and I think we'll need to play for territory. Zebo's someone I'd like to see playing Australia or a team that's light on the pillars.

He hasn't a great boot and looks very shacky and doesn't inspire confidence when he goes to kick!! Zebo can kick a ball way further and gives the team another option with his left foot as he has done with Munster a few times!!