Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Tox56

Very interesting decision for captain now, I thought Heaslip was a dead cert but throughout the week Kidney seemed to be hinting it was Sexton

tolosenc

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Surely Henderson and Bent have done less than another player under Kidney's tenure to deserve a call up.

Am I the only one that is aware that Bent had a pro-rugby career in NZ up to this point? The way some people are going on is as if someone was sat at Dublin Airport, spotted a big Kiwi guy coming off the plane and told him he was playing against the Boks at the weekend.

He's Irish qualified, and plied his trade elsewhere. What if Bowe had made his breakthrough season while at the Ospreys? Would you all have been moaning about him being called up then?

I know it's a generation in the difference, but my parents are from different countries. I was born and raised in Ireland, but would be eligible to play for either country were I good enough. Should I be tied to Ireland just because I didn't grow up in 2 countries simultaneously?

tolosenc

Teferi wrote: »

Heaslip seemed to hint at it being Sexton last friday and Kidney has made some comments about the captain of Ireland not needing captaining experience so it may end up being someone else completely.

He'll almost certainly give it to Murray.

Cpt_Blackbeard

goreyguy wrote: »

Henderson is only 6'5 though, not an ideal height

There are plenty of pics of Henderson with POC from training during the weak and he is by no means too small. However, he has yet to play a game in the second row at senior level. His current game suits 6 and his tight game will need improve before he shifts to lock.

tolosenc wrote: »

Am I the only one that is aware that Bent had a pro-rugby career in NZ up to this point? The way some people are going on is as if someone was sat at Dublin Airport, spotted a big Kiwi guy coming off the plane and told him he was playing against the Boks at the weekend.

He is coming over with a similar reputation and level of exposure as Borlase. I'd have less qualms about him playing rugby for Ireland than Strauss, but he needs to prove himself for Leinster first.

Tox56

These injuries are getting a little bit ridiculous. They're not just happening to squad players, they're happening to the best players we have.

POC, BOD, SOB, Kearney, Best, and Ferris are arguably our 6 best players. With the possible exception of Bowe, the only other player you would put in there ahead of any of those is Healy, and there's even an injury doubt about him!

thomond2006

Player Management Schemes are pointless if players will drop like flies. In France the players have no management schemes (AFAIK!) yet when the French squad comes together there never seems to be too many injuries.

On the other hand, Heineke Meyer bemoaned the fact that SA players have to play an extended Super Rugby season and then the conclusion of the Currie Cup, blaming this for their injury problems.

JRant

jm08 wrote: »

I thought he just said he was unsure of who he should be talking to about the general attack or something to that effect.

Do you have a link to what he actually said?

I don't have a link, unfortunately I'm only on the phone.

That sounds about right though. Terrible indictment of the whole management structure. If you don't know who to talk to about the attack strategy then it follows that there cannot be a coherent plan in place.

jamiedav2011

tolosenc wrote: »

Am I the only one that is aware that Bent had a pro-rugby career in NZ up to this point? The way some people are going on is as if someone was sat at Dublin Airport, spotted a big Kiwi guy coming off the plane and told him he was playing against the Boks at the weekend.

He's Irish qualified, and plied his trade elsewhere. What if Bowe had made his breakthrough season while at the Ospreys? Would you all have been moaning about him being called up then?

I know it's a generation in the difference, but my parents are from different countries. I was born and raised in Ireland, but would be eligible to play for either country were I good enough. Should I be tied to Ireland just because I didn't grow up in 2 countries simultaneously?

Bang on. I think the fact that the media hadn't a clue who this guy was, through sheer laziness, exacerbated the whole reaction to his call up. Wood and Thornley admitted they hadn't a clue who he is last week on OTB. Perhaps if they had brushed up on the ITM a bit they mightn't be as against it.

phog

goreyguy wrote: »

Kidney will have the excuses ready made, hoping it McCarthy and Ryan with Touhy on the bench. But i get the feeling DOC will be involved.

Ready made, maybe but the injured players are genuine losses. I doubt many if any team could suffer the loss of that quality.

jamiedav2011

With POC out, how will the second row shape up?

Hasn't Kidney intimated before that Ryan and DOC are very similar players to be starting together?

leftleg

jm08 wrote: »

I thought he just said he was unsure of who he should be talking to about the general attack or something to that effect.

Do you have a link to what he actually said?

http://www.herald.ie/sport/rugby/odriscoll-ireland-in-need-of-a-repair-job-3240091.html

"O’Driscoll thinks that since Alan Gaffney’s departure as backs coach last year there have been issues regarding the Irish attack.
“We’ve spoken about this since New Zealand,” he says, “and I think we just need to get clarity on who the point of reference is for our attacking game.
“In New Zealand, I think we could just have gotten our detail a little bit better. "

Winters

tolosenc wrote: »

Am I the only one that is aware that Bent had a pro-rugby career in NZ up to this point? The way some people are going on is as if someone was sat at Dublin Airport, spotted a big Kiwi guy coming off the plane and told him he was playing against the Boks at the weekend.

He's Irish qualified, and plied his trade elsewhere. What if Bowe had made his breakthrough season while at the Ospreys? Would you all have been moaning about him being called up then?

I worry what the effects on up and coming Irish born and Irish bred players will be of the decision by the IRFU to both sanction the signing of Michael Bent as an IQ player that has never played in Ireland but more importantly the decision by the Irish team management to call up Michael Bent without him even playing in the country. The cases of Isaac Boss, Denton and Tom Court etc. are no different.

How do we suppose the likes of Declan Fitzpatrick, Adam Macklin, Stephen Archer, John Ryan, Alan Cotter, Jamie Hagan, Michael Moore, Tadhg Furlong, Ronan Loughney and even Mike Ross feel after spending the majority of their playing careers playing in Ireland and aspiring to play for their country.

I don’t begrudge Michael Bent as an individual, and yes there are other unions doing the exact same but I simply think Eddie Wigglesworth and co. should have taken the higher ground. Quite frankly it cheapens the Irish jersey.

A lot of this stems from two issues:

1. The three NIE tight head props currently first choice in three of the four provinces
(The solution to this is the new dictat by the IRFU however we will only start seeing the effects of this in 2 to 3 years time)

2. Our head coach not blooding enough players at test level rugby.

totallegend

Don't think anyone is surprised by the news about POC. I'm getting more convinced that his career has months rather than years left in it.

jamiedav2011

Winters wrote: »

I worry what the effects on up and coming Irish born and Irish bred players will be of the decision by the IRFU to both sanction the signing of Michael Bent as an IQ player that has never played in Ireland as well as the decision by the Irish team management to call up Michael Bent without him even playing in the country. The cases of Isaac Boss, Denton and Tom Court etc. are no different.

How do we suppose the likes of Declan Fitzpatrick, Adam Macklin, Stephen Archer, John Ryan, Alan Cotter, Jamie Hagan, Michael Moore, Tadhg Furlong, Ronan Loughney and even Mike Ross feel after spending the majority of their playing careers playing in Ireland and aspiring to play for their country.

I don’t begrudge Michael Bent as an individual, and yes there are other unions doing the exact same but I simply think Eddie Wigglesworth and co. should have taken the higher ground. Quite frankly it cheapens the Irish jersey.

A lot of this stems from two issues:

1. The three NIE tight head props currently first choice in three of the four provinces
(The solution to this is the new dictat by the IRFU however we will only start seeing the effects of this in 2 to 3 years time)

2. Our head coach not blooding enough players at test level rugby.

Of the numerous props you've mentioned though, only Fitzpatrick and Loughney would be in any way considered international standard, and both are unavailable or only back from injury.

Hagan and Archer would be next in line, and they'd be far and away the standard required to come up against that Saffer front row.

While the likes of Moore and Furlong won't be hindered too much by Bent's signing you'd imagine.

goreyguy

Hagan was very good last weekend against Duncan Jones.

tolosenc

Winters wrote: »

I worry what the effects on up and coming Irish born and Irish bred players will be of the decision by the IRFU to both sanction the signing of Michael Bent as an IQ player that has never played in Ireland but more importantly the decision by the Irish team management to call up Michael Bent without him even playing in the country.

Utter nonsense.

1. Bent is Irish born.
2. What on Earth would the IRFU have against Leinster signing an IQ tight head?
3. What does where he played up till now have anything to do with it?
4. This isn't even vaguely the same as the utter strangling of talent that goes on in Munster with NIQs in the 1 and 3 jerseys. Bent is not a block Irish players, he is an Irish player.

jamiedav2011

goreyguy wrote: »

Hagan was very good last weekend against Duncan Jones.

He was, but in a low level Rabo game.
He hasn't pulled out much for Leinster at a high level so far, certainly nothing to say he could handle the Beast and Du Plessis.

goreyguy

Bent is not Irish born, Bent is new zealand born but has irish blood.

Tox56

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

He was, but in a low level Rabo game.
He hasn't pulled out much for Leinster at a high level so far, certainly nothing to say he could handle the Beast and Du Plessis.

I don't think so either, but according to the English commentator on S4C Duncan Jones has been getting rave reviews this season, and from what I saw of the Ospreys v Leicester H Cup game Jones really shored up the Ospreys scrum when he came off the bench (although I only saw bits and pieces of the game so I'm not 100% on that).

ray jay

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

With POC out, how will the second row shape up?

Hasn't Kidney intimated before that Ryan and DOC are very similar players to be starting together?

DOC has been playing well this season, it wouldn't be unjust if he got picked against SA. However if you were taking a longer term view, it would be nice if Touhy and Ryan got some game time.

4PP

tolosenc wrote: »

Am I the only one that is aware that Bent had a pro-rugby career in NZ up to this point? The way some people are going on is as if someone was sat at Dublin Airport, spotted a big Kiwi guy coming off the plane and told him he was playing against the Boks at the weekend.

He's Irish qualified, and plied his trade elsewhere. What if Bowe had made his breakthrough season while at the Ospreys? Would you all have been moaning about him being called up then?

I know it's a generation in the difference, but my parents are from different countries. I was born and raised in Ireland, but would be eligible to play for either country were I good enough. Should I be tied to Ireland just because I didn't grow up in 2 countries simultaneously?

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Bang on. I think the fact that the media hadn't a clue who this guy was, through sheer laziness, exacerbated the whole reaction to his call up. Wood and Thornley admitted they hadn't a clue who he is last week on OTB. Perhaps if they had brushed up on the ITM a bit they mightn't be as against it.

I agree with the above wholeheartedly.

Winters wrote: »

I worry what the effects on up and coming Irish born and Irish bred players will be of the decision by the IRFU to both sanction the signing of Michael Bent as an IQ player that has never played in Ireland but more importantly the decision by the Irish team management to call up Michael Bent without him even playing in the country. The cases of Isaac Boss, Denton and Tom Court etc. are no different.

How do we suppose the likes of Declan Fitzpatrick, Adam Macklin, Stephen Archer, John Ryan, Alan Cotter, Jamie Hagan, Michael Moore, Tadhg Furlong, Ronan Loughney and even Mike Ross feel after spending the majority of their playing careers playing in Ireland and aspiring to play for their country.

I don’t begrudge Michael Bent as an individual, and yes there are other unions doing the exact same but I simply think Eddie Wigglesworth and co. should have taken the higher ground. Quite frankly it cheapens the Irish jersey.

A lot of this stems from two issues:

1. The three NIE tight head props currently first choice in three of the four provinces
(The solution to this is the new dictat by the IRFU however we will only start seeing the effects of this in 2 to 3 years time)

2. Our head coach not blooding enough players at test level rugby.

I find this & other comments quite..............well "polite" words fail me.


I had assumed everyone knew that you don't play international rugby for a country, but for a union/federation.
You can qualify via nationality or via time spent as a player in that union.

No rules have been broken, no laws moral or otherwise except those in very closed small minded heads.

Quite frankly the IRFU is lucky to get these lads.


Below is a copy of a post I put up yesterday.

I have read the charter, read the "enforced" rules during test time etc so I'm not going to add anything more. I'm not looking for a ban & I just might get annoyed enough to earn one if I reply to some of the remarks on this topic.

My opinion is below.



Irish or Ersatz?
In case you were not aware Michael Bent,a chap, born & raised in New Zealand, will be lining out with the IRFU rugby team in the next few days. This is permitted in the rules as his Grandmother holds an Irish Passport.

Journalists/Pundits/former players have in their great majority expressed at best "disappointment, at worst "disgust" at his selection ahead of "home grown Real Irish players"

Now I don't know about you but as an Irishman abroad for the last 21 years I am totally disgusted by what I have read/heard.

Those of us & our offspring living abroad are somehow "lesser" Irish?, grand as fodder for the Gathering but not the real deal donchaknow!


I'd love to confront some of these buggers with Michael Bents Granny so they tell her to her face her grandson is unpure!


-Gordon D'Arcy better hand all his caps back, Norman/French origins!
-Mike Ross? must be a Black Protestant from the time of the famine!
-Keith Wood, another one, just the head on him shows he's from Yorkshire Yeomanry stock!
-And as for poor Simon Zebo, they'll probably tar & feather him!

I'll stop there "

bilston

Tox56 wrote: »

These injuries are getting a little bit ridiculous. They're not just happening to squad players, they're happening to the best players we have.

POC, BOD, SOB, Kearney, Best, and Ferris are arguably our 6 best players. With the possible exception of Bowe, the only other player you would put in there ahead of any of those is Healy, and there's even an injury doubt about him!

Yeah it's bizarre. I actually have some sympathy for Kidney.

Tox56

bilston wrote: »

Yeah it's bizarre. I actually have some sympathy for Kidney.

If it's like this for the six nations there's a problem, but ultimately unless we lose our Top 8 seeding (and I'm under the impression that is unlikely) I don't think these internationals are hugely important in the long term for Kidney

Quint2010

DOC will definitely start now. Oh well.

.ak

Considering some of the players could of forgone surgery then it's clear we're short players for the sake of the 6N

goreyguy

The autumn internationals should be for playing younger players and trying new combinations, with all these injuries Kidney is being forced to do that.

But he will still start DOC when he should at the most be on the bench.

goreyguy

DP

ed7890

Tox56 wrote: »

I don't think so either, but according to the English commentator on S4C Duncan Jones has been getting rave reviews this season, and from what I saw of the Ospreys v Leicester H Cup game Jones really shored up the Ospreys scrum when he came off the bench (although I only saw bits and pieces of the game so I'm not 100% on that).

Just to add though, the rest of the front row for the Ospreys was very weak in that game. Rees was getting pummeled by van der Merwe, and their rookie hooker doesn't seem much of a scrummager.

who_me

4PP wrote: »

-Gordon D'Arcy better hand all his caps back, Norman/French origins!
-Mike Ross? must be a Black Protestant from the time of the famine!
-Keith Wood, another one, just the head on him shows he's from Yorkshire Yeomanry stock!
-And as for poor Simon Zebo, they'll probably tar & feather him!

Wow. That poor strawman never stood a chance...

Your attitude is every bit as simplistic as the attitude you're criticising. The reality is a bit more complex.

Representative rugby is inherently discriminatory. If a player can't go to another country and be selected for the international team that same day (just as someone born in that country could), then he/she is - by definition - being discriminated against.

I don't think many of us want a system where a nation can buy any 15 in the world as an international side, so we're left with a discriminatory system based on arbitrary rules. Born in Ireland? Or any Irish citizen? Or resident in Ireland for 2...3... 11 years? Father is Irish? Grandparents?

I support Ireland, not because they're the most successful (yeeesh), but because they are the team representing this island, through thick and thin. And I'd like to think it's the same for the players. They have the same loyalty to the side that we supporters do, they don't just pick the national side in which they have the best chance of getting caps or the highest wages, and they don't switch allegiances mid-career.

Criticising someone for such a preference is just bizarre. Different people just have different, arbitrary lines in the sand when it comes to this topic.

MLC61

I am trying to remember if there was the same furore back in the late 80's and early 90's. I don' t think there was.
Simon Geoghegan was one of the most exciting players of his time and a definite crowd favourite. Jim Staples was an incredibly brave full back. There was no carping that they were born in the UK, lived there and played their rugby there.
Certainly with Brian Smith it was questioned and likewise Dion O'Cuinneagain but both were capped for other countries first.