Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

So, is it safe to talk about Earls being a winger again?

When was the last time Earls actually played on the wing?

CatFromHue

@bilston

For me creating a new centre partnership isn't a great idea, if you're going down the route of creating continuity of selection in the Irish team with Arg game in mind.

Sexton, L. Marshall, and Bowe have only one player who is first choice whereas if you keep Earls at 13 you can see how the three quarter unit functions with Marshall in it. Sexton, L. Marshall, and Earls is a much better selection to gauge how L. Marshall will fit into the backline for me.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

When was the last time Earls actually played on the wing?

Played there for the 60-0 I think

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

When was the last time Earls actually played on the wing?

Not certain, but his skillset is still that of a winger and a great winger at that, and not of a centre.

Round peg, square hole at centre imo. Has plenty of the talent to be there, but there's just some bits missing that he's not going to fill in anytime soon.

The dodgy kick through, the rotten pass into touch etc. These are things that haven't improved, and don't look to improve anytime soon, at Munster or in an Ireland jersey.

totallegend

freyners wrote: »

is there a summer tour for the people not on the lions next summer?

USA & Canada

Tox56

Don't see Bowe as a long-term solution at 13, and I think he's our best winger when on form. You would think L Marshall and Cave have a good understanding from playing (and training) together, and you wouldn't really get that from any of the other possible centre combinations

freyners

totallegend wrote: »

USA & Canada

cool, perfect time to try combinations with marshall, mcsharry, eom, griffin, mcfadden (cant see him touring) in the centre, likes of buckley and fitzpatrick/hagan up front etc etc

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Not certain, but his skillset is still that of a winger and a great winger at that, and not of a centre.

Round peg, square hole at centre imo. Has plenty of the talent to be there, but there's just some bits missing that he's not going to fill in anytime soon.

The dodgy kick through, the rotten pass into touch etc. These are things that haven't improved, and don't look to improve anytime soon, at Munster or in an Ireland jersey.

There's not a center in the world who doesn't throw a dodgy pass off their bad hand every now and then. O'Driscoll is a great example.

I don't understand what exactly Earls supposedly lacks as a 13? He's got pace, he runs some superb lines, he has improved his passing hugely, he's a very tough defender. Don't know what else he's supposed to have. Half those skills are wasted out wide when we have great young wingers emerging all over the country. Earls is one of our only complete long-term prospects at 13, whereas we have Gilroy, Zebo, O'Halloran and others on the wing. He also lacks the will to play on the wing. That and any playing experience there over the past year.

Our problems on Saturday weren't at all related to those playing in the outside backs. The problem was those inside them.

But if we're going to try anyone else at 13 against Fiji then Earls and Zebo have to play 11/15 so we have the option to carry the change through to the Argentina game

goreyguy

I think Earls needs more games at 13 before we can say he isn't upto it.

Still would like to see Cave given a chance.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's not a center in the world who doesn't throw a dodgy pass off their bad hand every now and then. O'Driscoll is a great example.

I don't understand what exactly Earls supposedly lacks as a 13? He's got pace, he runs some superb lines, he has improved his passing hugely, he's a very tough defender. Don't know what else he's supposed to have. Half those skills are wasted out wide when we have great young wingers emerging all over the country. Earls is one of our only complete long-term prospects at 13, whereas we have Gilroy, Zebo, O'Halloran and others on the wing. He also lacks the will to play on the wing. That and any playing experience there over the past year.

Our problems on Saturday weren't at all related to those playing in the outside backs. The problem was those inside them.

But if we're going to try anyone else at 13 against Fiji then Earls and Zebo have to play 11/15 so we have the option to carry the change through to the Argentina game

he doesn't have the head for it, he misses the obvious too often imo. Sometimes there's nothing wrong with simply taking 3 steps forward, in a straight line, and setting your opposite number and making the simple pass.

In fact, never mind something wrong, sometimes that's easily the very best option.

I still don't rate his running game from the 13 channel, he cuts the wingers line as he drifts while coming onto the ball, but almost all the time steps back inside. This works when you're 6'3" and get your hands free and are able to pass both ways while being tackled. It doesn't work when you're not that guy.

It's no wonder that he's never had a really good performance at 13 for Ireland (though has plenty at 11 and one at 15). He's not got that top 3 inches that guys like O'Malley and Griffin have. It's a natural reading of the game that's missing, and ridiculously hard to teach someone. I don't actually think either O'Malley or Griffin are better 13s than him though, that's the interesting part. Just that they know what they should do far more often than he does.

They'll learn how to do it before Earls learns why imo. A very solid option would be Cave, a natural 13, who's not a world beater, but knows how to play the game and isn't found wanting at 13 with Earls at 11.

I personally much prefer a backline of

11. Earls 12. D'Arcy 13. Cave 14. Bowe 15. Zebo

than

11. Trimble 12. D'Arcy 13. Earls 14. Bowe 15. Zebo

One has wingers that score for fun and are proven finishers, with a solid midfield that know how to get the ball to their outside backs.

The other has a winger with a penchant for some oddities, though always an honest and strong performer, and a 13 that really lacks the clinical efficiency to get the ball to the back 3 in time and space to get over the try line.

goreyguy

goreyguy wrote: »

I think Earls needs more games at 13 before we can say he isn't upto it.

I'd perhaps agree if it weren't for the fact that its not a case of him struggling to find his provincial performances in an international jersey (perhaps what people say of Sexton), he is playing at the level for Ireland that he has done for Munster. He's a decent option, but not our best use of resources, and I simply don't think that he's ever going to be that guy.

I think in moving him from 11, we take away a lethal poacher from the position that he's done most of that damage in, while actually hindering 3 positions around him as his distribution and all-round awareness at 13 isn't quite what we can find elsewhere in the squad.

totallegend

I agree with Emmet; while Earls has played well for Ireland while wearing the 13 jersey, the elements that have marked out those performances have been the same things that make him a great winger.

His passing, support running and awareness of the people around him are not fully there yet IMO. Not to say he won't get there, but I don't think he's proved himself to be the only viable candidate to be the next 13.

[All irrelevant for now, Kidney quite clearly made his mind up at least a year ago that Earls is the next 13]

.ak

I don't know, I like my centres to be like small flankers to be honest. Rougerie, BOD, SBW, Mortlock, Nonu, even Smith is a bulky operator.

I played at centre, and I have to say my light weight was my biggest enemy.

bilston

CatFromHue wrote: »

@bilston

For me creating a new centre partnership isn't a great idea, if you're going down the route of creating continuity of selection in the Irish team with Arg game in mind.

Sexton, L. Marshall, and Bowe have only one player who is first choice whereas if you keep Earls at 13 you can see how the three quarter unit functions with Marshall in it. Sexton, L. Marshall, and Earls is a much better selection to gauge how L. Marshall will fit into the backline for me.

Well fine but it doesn't really add to the physicality of our midfield which was the main point about moving Bowe inside. There's bugger all cutting edge in our backline and I tend to believe the problem lies in the centres who in fairness are being hamstrung by a far too one dimensional approach.

goreyguy

I think ideally someone like Macken/Griffen would be playing at a slightly higher level.. i think that could happen but they are a year or two away

Until then it's Cave or Earls it appears.

bilston

freyners wrote: »

cool, perfect time to try combinations with marshall, mcsharry, eom, griffin, mcfadden (cant see him touring) in the centre, likes of buckley and fitzpatrick/hagan up front etc etc

As opposed to a glorified Wolfhounds match against a weakened touring Fijian side?

Cpt_Blackbeard

Deleted User wrote: »

he doesn't have the head for it, he misses the obvious too often imo. Sometimes there's nothing wrong with simply taking 3 steps forward, in a straight line, and setting your opposite number and making the simple pass.

In fact, never mind something wrong, sometimes that's easily the very best option.

I still don't rate his running game from the 13 channel, he cuts the wingers line as he drifts while coming onto the ball, but almost all the time steps back inside. This works when you're 6'3" and get your hands free and are able to pass both ways while being tackled. It doesn't work when you're not that guy.

It's no wonder that he's never had a really good performance at 13 for Ireland (though has plenty at 11 and one at 15). He's not got that top 3 inches that guys like O'Malley and Griffin have. It's a natural reading of the game that's missing, and ridiculously hard to teach someone. I don't actually think either O'Malley or Griffin are better 13s than him though, that's the interesting part. Just that they know what they should do far more often than he does.

They'll learn how to do it before Earls learns why imo. A very solid option would be Cave, a natural 13, who's not a world beater, but knows how to play the game and isn't found wanting at 13 with Earls at 11.

You seem to consistently beat on the same drum that Earls' only move in attack is to cut inside, but did you watch the game at the weekend? The best break of the night coincided with Earls stepping and beating his man on the outside. I'm sure you'll claim this to be his winger's instincts though...

If you'd watched Earls at all over the last 12 months, you'd have seen that his passing has come on leaps and bounds. He is now consistently putting others through, whether it be with a slight offload or a long skip-pass. He had one bad pass on Saturday after a few weeks out; BOD is in no way innocent in this regard. Now that Earls' defense is no longer an issue - he was better than both D'Arcy and Sexton is defense on Saturday - posters are looking for other ways to get him out of the 13 jersey.

I's also counter your point that he has never had a great game at 13 for Ireland, by asking when was the last time we've had a good performance from any of our centres. Earls showings in the 6N are up there with pretty much anything we've seen since BOD in 2009.

bilston

totallegend wrote: »

I agree with Emmet; while Earls has played well for Ireland while wearing the 13 jersey, the elements that have marked out those performances have been the same things that make him a great winger.

His passing, support running and awareness of the people around him are not fully there yet IMO. Not to say he won't get there, but I don't think he's proved himself to be the only viable candidate to be the next 13.

[All irrelevant for now, Kidney quite clearly made his mind up at least a year ago that Earls is the next 13]

Even his break on Saturday where he stood up the SA defender and used great footwork to take him on the outside seemed to happen in the wing position. He's scored loads of tries for Ireland from the wing as well so actually you could argue that the square pegs and round holes description of moving Bowe to 13 by Goreyguy (and I understand why he said that) equally applies to Earls.

freyners

bilston wrote: »

As opposed to a glorified Wolfhounds match against a weakened touring Fijian side?

actually I posted earlier the team i would like to see put out in the wolfhounds match, mix of experience and youth. I don't like seeing lads like those i mentioned above being left out but it doesnt look likely they will be brought in now at such a late stage so im trying to find a bright spot in all this

Plus (and im probably going to be ate alive for saying this) I dont see the point in trying to start off completely new centre partnerships/front rows etc etc in a once of match and then not having it done again for another few months. Its more beneficial, imo, to commit to trying them over the course of a 3/4 match tour and let them have 4/5 weeks of working together, giving them time to gel and to understand each others styles

Cpt_Blackbeard

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

You seem to consistently beat on the same drum that Earls' only move in attack is to cut inside, but did you watch the game at the weekend? The best break of the night coincided with Earls stepping and beating his man on the outside. I'm sure you'll claim this to be his winger's instincts though...

If you'd watched Earls at all over the last 12 months, you'd have seen that his passing has come on leaps and bounds. He is now consistently putting others through, whether it be with a slight offload or a long skip-pass. He had one bad pass on Saturday after a few weeks out; BOD is in no way innocent in this regard. Now that Earls' defense is no longer an issue - he was better than both D'Arcy and Sexton is defense on Saturday - posters are looking for other ways to get him out of the 13 jersey.

I's also counter your point that he has never had a great game at 13 for Ireland, by asking when was the last time we've had a good performance from any of our centres. Earls showings in the 6N are up there with pretty much anything we've seen since BOD in 2009.

Question. What is the attachment to the 13 Jersey?

Something that always baffles me.

Earls' best performances for Ireland, Munster, Lions etc have all been in the back 3.

Is it because Earls has earned this anchor/tag of being "BOD's heir" and has to wear it like a chain no matter what?

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think my favourite center partnership would be McFadden, Cave.

I'd like to see that myself. It could be argued that if not for injuries elsewhere Ferg would have retained the 12 jersey against Scarlets. He certainly played well enough against Munster and Exeter. And despite not seeing a massive amount of Ulster over the last 12 months Cave has impressed whenever I've seen him. It would be worth a look.

goreyguy wrote: »

Tony Ward defending Kidney to the hilt, apparently it's not his fault. The players just aren't good enough.

I wonder if we see a new coach in 12 months with drastically improved performances (which I reckon is likely) will Ward still hold that view.

Tox56 wrote: »

Played there for the 60-0 I think

Yep he started at 11 that day.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Question. What is the attachment to the 13 Jersey?

Something that always baffles me.

Earls' best performances for Ireland, Munster, Lions etc have all been in the back 3.

Is it because Earls has earned this anchor/tag of being "BOD's heir" and has to wear it like a chain no matter what?

Its the resistence to him wearing it at all, considering BOD's injuries is far more baffling. You'd think we were up to our necks in experienced centres (12 & 13s) the way some are going on here.

Its no coincidence that Earls performed his best when he got 3 games in a row with the same partner (Earls & D'Arcy in the 6Ns). Since then he has played 13 for Munster, fullback (ba-baas), 12 Ireland, wing Ireland, 13 for Ireland.

Just because Luke Fitz said in public that he wanted to play full back and it didn't work out for him doesn't mean the same will apply to Earls. Ruan Pienaar is a better example of a player backing themselves to play in the position they want to.

irishbucsfan

Earls best performances for Munster have not been in the back 3 for starters. When was the last time he played well on the wing for Munster? He's played well at center for Munster this season and some of his best performances for them have been there.

People just don't want to give him time to develop, despite the fact he has been the most improved player in the squad over the past while and is still getting better all the time. Also despite the fact he has the potential to be better than any other young center we have thanks to his pace and finishing.

His lines of running are as good as any other 13 in Ireland when he plays in a system that is cohesive and effective with half backs performing well. That's not the case with Ireland and Darren Cave, Fergus McFadden, or even Brian O'Driscoll wouldn't be able to do anything about that either.

I'm all for giving Cave a chance but Earls has played well in a flawed team and when we get a new coaching staff in to sort out our attacking game Earls will benefit from it at 13. If he was so much better on the wing than at 13 then Penney and the hairy Kiwi would probably have actually played him there already.

It would be absolute lunacy to put Earls back at a position he doesn't want to play ahead of all the young talent that is emerging there anyway. Let the actual wingers, something Earls is not and doesn't want to be, play on the wing.

bamboozle

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

You seem to consistently beat on the same drum that Earls' only move in attack is to cut inside, but did you watch the game at the weekend? The best break of the night coincided with Earls stepping and beating his man on the outside. I'm sure you'll claim this to be his winger's instincts though...

If you'd watched Earls at all over the last 12 months, you'd have seen that his passing has come on leaps and bounds. He is now consistently putting others through, whether it be with a slight offload or a long skip-pass. He had one bad pass on Saturday after a few weeks out; BOD is in no way innocent in this regard. Now that Earls' defense is no longer an issue - he was better than both D'Arcy and Sexton is defense on Saturday - posters are looking for other ways to get him out of the 13 jersey.

I's also counter your point that he has never had a great game at 13 for Ireland, by asking when was the last time we've had a good performance from any of our centres. Earls showings in the 6N are up there with pretty much anything we've seen since BOD in 2009.

not very realistic comparing the defensive duties of Sexton Darcy & Earls from Saturday given the amount of forward traffic SA sent down the 10-12 channel.

I'm not a fan of Earls as a 13 but in his defence i cant remember when he's even been fit enough to have a run of games at 13 to show his abilities.

Hagz

Earls is not Ireland's long term option at 13. This much is clear. What isn't clear is who will be. I think it will either come from Connacht or Leinster. Either O'Malley or Macken from Leinster or Griffin/Henshaw from Connacht.

jm08

Bamboozle

Earls played 27 games last season (12 Munster, 15 Ireland). He would have started the Wales game but for his daughter's illness.

Cave played 21 (wasn't available for 6Ns through injury).

edit: the traffic down the 10/12/13 channel's were similar - according to ESPN (tackles made/missed). Earls 7/0, D'Arcy 7/2, Sexton 7/2.

Teferi

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I's also counter your point that he has never had a great game at 13 for Ireland, by asking when was the last time we've had a good performance from any of our centres.

"I'll counter your point about Earls by asking you to point out something about players from other provinces."

In other words, deflecting.

That is literally what you have said there. Solid post.

Earls has tonnes of games at 13 for Munster.

Tonnes.

irishbucsfan

Teferi wrote: »

"I'll counter your point about Earls by asking you to point out something about players from other provinces."

In other words, deflecting.

That is literally what you have said there. It is also everything that is wrong with everything you post. It's all provincial rubbish.

You're completely wrong here. You're ruining the discussion by trying to turn it into something it isn't, leave it to the mods.

His point is that we haven't had a single strong attacking performance from Ireland in the past 12 months regardless of who is at center, O'Driscoll or Earls. It's all down to our half backs under performing.

I think the best we've played in attack this year was after Reddan came on against Italy and we opened up. And who was one of our biggest weapons in that period of the game? Earls, who made what seemed like our first line break of the game almost immediately.

Darren Cave would have done no better against South Africa. Not when Sexton was making things easy for them by just shovelling everything across the line with no intention to run or kick. The coaching needs to change before we start to accuse the players of not being good enough.

totallegend

Deleted User wrote: »

Question. What is the attachment to the 13 Jersey?

Something that always baffles me.

Leaving aside the Ireland 13 jersey for a second, I think you're on to something here.

During the summer, I posted that with Laulala arriving, Earls would struggle to get gametime at 13 for Munster and it was odd that Munster were signing a top-class 13 if Earls was nailed down... Lads were only lining up to give me a kicking, saying that Laulala was being signed as squad cover for the Rabo, he wasn't up to much and Earls was the man. It was bizarre.

Look, my take on it is this; Earls has the potential to be a very good 13 but he just hasn't shown that he's there yet at international level. He's never going to be BOD, that's a given, but I think he still has some developing to do in terms of the wider role a 13 should be playing. In the mean-time, it would be stupid not to explore other options there; Cave being the most obvious choice.