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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread
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totallegend wrote: »Leaving aside the Ireland 13 jersey for a second, I think you're on to something here.
During the summer, I posted that with Laulala arriving, Earls would struggle to get gametime at 13 for Munster and it was odd that Munster were signing a top-class 13 if Earls was nailed down... Lads were only lining up to give me a kicking, saying that Laulala was being signed as squad cover for the Rabo, he wasn't up to much and Earls was the man. It was bizarre.
I don't remember anyone saying Laulala was only being signed as squad cover... are you sure that happened?
I thought that Earls would be moved to wing or full-back to accommodate Laulala, who is a class player... but so far it looks like Earls is the favourite for the 13 jersey, it was Laulala who was moved for their first games together.
I think Earls is a very good 13, I think he's an excellent winger too. Personally, I wanted Earls at 15 with Cave at 13 for SA, to get the best players on the pitch. But I don't think it's fair to judge Earls on a lack of penetration for Ireland, if you were going along those lines, you could say Sexton is merely average... the whole Irish backline in fact.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »Earls best performances for Munster have not been in the back 3 for starters. When was the last time he played well on the wing for Munster? He's played well at center for Munster this season and some of his best performances for them have been there.
People just don't want to give him time to develop, despite the fact he has been the most improved player in the squad over the past while and is still getting better all the time. Also despite the fact he has the potential to be better than any other young center we have thanks to his pace and finishing.
His lines of running are as good as any other 13 in Ireland when he plays in a system that is cohesive and effective with half backs performing well. That's not the case with Ireland and Darren Cave, Fergus McFadden, or even Brian O'Driscoll wouldn't be able to do anything about that either.
I'm all for giving Cave a chance but Earls has played well in a flawed team and when we get a new coaching staff in to sort out our attacking game Earls will benefit from it at 13. If he was so much better on the wing than at 13 then Penney and the hairy Kiwi would probably have actually played him there already.
It would be absolute lunacy to put Earls back at a position he doesn't want to play ahead of all the young talent that is emerging there anyway. Let the actual wingers, something Earls is not and doesn't want to be, play on the wing.
1 - jm08 will let you know that Earls has had an awful lot of gametime at 13 for Munster. How much more development are we affording him?
2 - Completely made up! What evidence is there of this? I am all for speculating, and making educated inferences based on what I've seen (which is all we're really doing), but you can't state it as fact! What teams has he played in with the above scenario being an apt description?
3 - IRFU contracted player gets picked ahead of NIQ player shocker? Can't recall a single instance of this before...
4 - Again, opinion, not fact. However I believe that his strike rate at 11 vs 13, performances at 11 vs 13, ratings at 11 vs 13 etc will all counter that.0 -
totallegend wrote: »Leaving aside the Ireland 13 jersey for a second, I think you're on to something here.
During the summer, I posted that with Laulala arriving, Earls would struggle to get gametime at 13 for Munster and it was odd that Munster were signing a top-class 13 if Earls was nailed down... Lads were only lining up to give me a kicking, saying that Laulala was being signed as squad cover for the Rabo, he wasn't up to much and Earls was the man. It was bizarre.
Look, my take on it is this; Earls has the potential to be a very good 13 but he just hasn't shown that he's there yet at international level. He's never going to be BOD, that's a given, but I think he still has some developing to do in terms of the wider role a 13 should be playing. In the mean-time, it would be stupid not to explore other options there; Cave being the most obvious choice.
I doubt anyone would have said that Lauala was not up to much (though quite a few Munster fans have been less than impressed with his defence!). They were correct though about Earls being first choice as up to now, Earls 4 starts for Munster this season has been at 13 with Laulala moved to 12 to accommodate him.
Munster have an abundance of good wingers - Howlett, Zebo & O'Dea, but not so good with centres. Don't forget that Mafi is gone and Barry Murphy (a quality centre) retired because of injury.0 -
Earls has played 4 games for Munster so far this season. Have they all been at 13 does anybody know? Genuine question.0
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Thanks. I remember the game where they moved Lualala to 12. Didn't work imo.0
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Earls has played 4 games for Munster so far this season. Have they all been at 13 does anybody know? Genuine question.
I think he came off the bench and played 11 to cover injury (LOD's?) in his first game this season. Well, he replaced an 11 anyway, but from what I remember he featured more at 9 and 10 than he did out on the wing.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »1 sub appearance on the wing, 3 at 13.
Downey was also playing with a broken hand since Earls returned so I wouldn't be too confident that 12 Laulala and 13 Earls is the Penney's with Downey on the bench is Penney's preferred option.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »You're completely wrong here. You're ruining the discussion by trying to turn it into something it isn't, leave it to the mods.
His point is that we haven't had a single strong attacking performance from Ireland in the past 12 months regardless of who is at center, O'Driscoll or Earls. It's all down to our half backs under performing.
I completely disagree. He was deflecting points made about his pet player. Simple as.
If you think I was turning it into something it wasn't then read his posts more clearly.0 -
1. Are you disagreeing then that he has been improving as a center? Because you'd be in a pretty small minority there. He's continuing to improve all the time... There's no magic game counter that says once you play x number of games you stop improving.
2. It's not completely made up at all. Look at Earls for Munster this season (think it was the first game). Look at the line he took for the try against Ospreys in the semi final last season (any center would have been proud of). Look at the line he was taking from the scrum that Heaslip gave the ball to Sexton from. A great line splitting the opposition centres but the pass was late. Look at his play against Italy last season. Even look at his play against New Zeland beside O'Driscoll when he made one of our only line breaks (at 13 outside BOD for that phase of play) in that game (maybe even our only line break). It's not made up at all, I don't know how you aren't able to see it but maybe you need to look again.
Who takes better lines than Earls then? I would say possibly O'Malley, been a while since he's had a good run out though.
3. Doesn't have to be picked ahead of him though! Why is Earls not in the wing if that's where he's supposedly better? Nothing to do with his contract, they could have picked both of them... more to do with the fact he wants to play 13 and he's good at it. Also the fact he played so well clearly indicates it was the right selection.
4. Wingers score more tries. I'm talking about where he has played the majority of his rugby in his life and even his professional career. Also where he wants to play and what position he considers himself to be.. I'd imagine Keith Earls is somewhat of an expert on Keith Earls.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Question. What is the attachment to the 13 Jersey?
Something that always baffles me.
Earls' best performances for Ireland, Munster, Lions etc have all been in the back 3.
Is it because Earls has earned this anchor/tag of being "BOD's heir" and has to wear it like a chain no matter what?
It has nothing to do with attachment to the 13 jersey; however attachment to the 13 jersey is the reason why I don't think people want to see Earls at 13.
Anyone who is remotely clued in to Irish rugby would recognise the glut of good wingers and dearth of good centres coming through. Of that limited amount of centres, Earls is both currently the best 13 and has a higher potential of any of the rest.
Of all the coaches - 3 provincial head coaches, 3 provincial backs coaches, and international and Lions coaches - Declan Kidney is the only one who consistently played Earls on the wing. Even Kidney seems to recognise that Earls is our best option in the centre going forward and only played him on the wing to get him on the field.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »1. Are you disagreeing then that he has been improving as a center? Because you'd be in a pretty small minority there. He's continuing to improve all the time... There's no magic game counter that says once you play x number of games you stop improving.
2. It's not completely made up at all. Look at Earls for Munster this season (think it was the first game). Look at the line he took for the try against Ospreys in the semi final last season (any center would have been proud of). Look at the line he was taking from the scrum that Heaslip gave the ball to Sexton from. A great line splitting the opposition centres but the pass was late. Look at his play against Italy last season. Even look at his play against New Zeland beside O'Driscoll when he made one of our only line breaks (at 13 outside BOD for that phase of play) in that game (maybe even our only line break). It's not made up at all, I don't know how you aren't able to see it but maybe you need to look again.
Who takes better lines than Earls then? I would say possibly O'Malley, been a while since he's had a good run out though.
3. Doesn't have to be picked ahead of him though! Why is Earls not in the wing if that's where he's supposedly better? Nothing to do with his contract, they could have picked both of them... more to do with the fact he wants to play 13 and he's good at it. Also the fact he played so well clearly indicates it was the right selection.
4. Wingers score more tries. I'm talking about where he has played the majority of his rugby in his life and even his professional career. Also where he wants to play and what position he considers himself to be.. I'd imagine Keith Earls is somewhat of an expert on Keith Earls.
Was this aimed at me?
If so you're arguing with yourself there.
The poster was deflecting points made about Earls. That is what I was arguing.
Cheers.0 -
I completely disagree. He was deflecting points made about his pet player. Simple as.
If you think I was turning it into something it wasn't then read his posts more clearly.
My point was that we've had no great performances from our centres since '09. Just because Earls hasn't set the world alight, doesn't mean he isn't a good centre. You're derailing the discussion in order to start petty spats.0 -
Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »It has nothing to do with attachment to the 13 jersey; however attachment to the 13 jersey is the reason why I don't think people want to see Earls at 13.
Anyone who is remotely clued in to Irish rugby would recognise the glut of good wingers and dearth of good centres coming through. Of that limited amount of centres, Earls is both currently the best 13 and has a higher potential of any of the rest.
Of all the coaches - 3 provincial head coaches, 3 provincial backs coaches, and international and Lions coaches - Declan Kidney is the only one who consistently played Earls on the wing. Even Kidney seems to recognise that Earls is our best option in the centre going forward and only played him on the wing to get him on the field.
Really is amazing how you can present something so totally subjective as if it is fact.
I do agree though that we might as well keep him at 13 given how many wingers we have.0 -
Thanks. I remember the game where they moved Lualala to 12. Didn't work imo.
For Ospreys & Leinster games he was moved to 12.
Cameo of Earls off the bench against Ulster. Wait for the replay (about 20 secs in) to see how everyone was lined out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkW4yZcwVwE0 -
Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »My point was that we've had no great performances from our centres since '09. Just because Earls hasn't set the world alight, doesn't mean he isn't a good centre. You're derailing the discussion in order to start petty spats.
Nobody is saying he is a bad centre.
What people are saying is that he makes a better winger.0 -
Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »My point was that we've had no great performances from our centres since '09. Just because Earls hasn't set the world alight, doesn't mean he isn't a good centre.
So you've never made a post questioning Darcy's (or even BOD's) performances for Ireland at centre since '09?0 -
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irishbucsfan wrote: »1. Are you disagreeing then that he has been improving as a center? Because you'd be in a pretty small minority there. He's continuing to improve all the time... There's no magic game counter that says once you play x number of games you stop improving.
I get this, but the thing is is that he's already a fantastic winger. He's an okay centre. This is being ignored wholly here. We can spend ages waiting for him to become an all-round superstar that I don't think he has the head for, meaning that we do two things
1 - Cost ourselves the opportunity of seeing what a natural second centre might be able to do in an Ireland jersey with a class winger outside him.
2- Stop our class winger playing on the wing and becoming a world class winger, a game he has all the instincts for.irishbucsfan wrote: »2. It's not completely made up at all. Look at Earls for Munster this season (think it was the first game). Look at the line he took for the try against Ospreys in the semi final last season (any center would have been proud of). Look at the line he was taking from the scrum that Heaslip gave the ball to Sexton from. A great line splitting the opposition centres but the pass was late. Look at his play against Italy last season. Even look at his play against New Zeland beside O'Driscoll when he made one of our only line breaks (at 13 outside BOD for that phase of play) in that game (maybe even our only line break). It's not made up at all, I don't know how you aren't able to see it but maybe you need to look again.
His first game was as a winger.
It's his overall running game that has issues. Darron Gibson will have plenty of great goals in his showcase at the end of his career, but looking at the times that it worked and ignoring all the others will cloud your judgement of him.irishbucsfan wrote: »Who takes better lines than Earls then? I would say possibly O'Malley, been a while since he's had a good run out though.
Again, it's not in particular that anyone takes better lines, its making better decisions. Knowing when to run, when not to, knowing when to delay a pass, knowing when to push his winger out to the next attacker that he doesn't have. Griffin and O'Malley both have a more natural game in this regard, as does Cave as well as having consistency here too.irishbucsfan wrote: »3. Doesn't have to be picked ahead of him though! Why is Earls not in the wing if that's where he's supposedly better? Nothing to do with his contract, they could have picked both of them... more to do with the fact he wants to play 13 and he's good at it. Also the fact he played so well clearly indicates it was the right selection.
Because Downey has a broken arm.
Because BOD is injured and Kidney needed someone to play 13 and has never been enamoured with Cave.
You know these answers already!irishbucsfan wrote: »4. Wingers score more tries. I'm talking about where he has played the majority of his rugby in his life and even his professional career. Also where he wants to play and what position he considers himself to be.. I'd imagine Keith Earls is somewhat of an expert on Keith Earls.
And Luke Fitzgerald said that he doesn't like inside centre and that it doesn't suit his game and everybody else thinks that his skillset is really well aligned to the position. Then he has a run of games there and does really well, manages to play himself into a good run of form.
But again, Fitz knows best.
ROG also believes he's playing above International Standard.
You're picking and choosing logic akin to some of the less rational posters on here.0 -
Nobody is saying he is a bad centre.
What people are saying is that he makes a better winger.
He may be a better winger, it is our - Munster's and Ireland's - best use of resources to play him in the centre.So you've never made a post questioning Darcy's (or even BOD's) performances for Ireland at centre since '09?
I've no idea what you are talking about...0 -
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Just been reminded of this fact on another blog:
"Ireland have lost five games in a row, and eight of the last ten matches."
Even though 3 of those were against NZ, thats still a shocking and depressing stat.0 -
Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »It has nothing to do with attachment to the 13 jersey; however attachment to the 13 jersey is the reason why I don't think people want to see Earls at 13.
Anyone who is remotely clued in to Irish rugby would recognise the glut of good wingers and dearth of good centres coming through. Of that limited amount of centres, Earls is both currently the best 13 and has a higher potential of any of the rest.
Of all the coaches - 3 provincial head coaches, 3 provincial backs coaches, and international and Lions coaches - Declan Kidney is the only one who consistently played Earls on the wing. Even Kidney seems to recognise that Earls is our best option in the centre going forward and only played him on the wing to get him on the field.
I've just written quite detailed posts about why I don't consider this to be the case.
If you want to argue those points, do. If you want to ignore them, and present your opinion as fact, I'll not bother talking with you on it because otherwise we just move completely in circles.0 -
Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »He may be a better winger, it is our - Munster's and Ireland's - best use of resources to play him in the centre
Or we could give Cave an honest chance to prove himself.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »1 - jm08 will let you know that Earls has had an awful lot of gametime at 13 for Munster. How much more development are we affording him?
I'd suggest a run of game internationally with the same partner for starters, maybe with Zebo outside him who has a provincial understanding with to see how it goes.
9 of his 33 caps to date have been in the centre (at least 2 of those was at inside centre). He has only ever had 4 games in a row in the centre last 6Ns - the rest were isolated games.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Because Downey has a broken arm.
Because BOD is injured and Kidney needed someone to play 13 and has never been enamoured with Cave.
You know these answers already!
I'm just going to highlight the Downey point. Has he had a broken hand all season? While it certainly affected his form in some way, I think that if Penney was going to drop him because of that, he wouldn't have played even when Earls was gone too. He could have played Keatley in the centre after all.
I think that Earls looks like Munster's 1st choice 13 atm...whether that's the right idea, I don't know. (Laulala has some excellent attributes but I think Earls has looked better than him there in the limited time he got before injury).
As for Earls knowing best about himself, I wouldn't agree with that entirely... you're right to bring up the Fitz and ROG points. Some people do have a different perception of their ability to reality.
But I do disagree about him not having the instincts/the game to be a top centre. He's never going to BOD, but no one is. I think he's had enough very good performances there in the last 12 months to say that he is the best 13 outside of BOD atm. (Although I could accept why Cave fans would think he is, he deserves a shot internationally too...although I don't think he'll benefit much from being included at this time)0 -
Or we could give Cave an honest chance to prove himself.
Cave was on the tour to US & Canada in '09. McFadden was at the Churchill Cup. From similar opportunities, Mcfadden made it.
Cave also started with Paddy Wallace against the Ba-Baas in the centre (with Earls at fullback).
Personally, I think he is short on pace and maybe does not get involved enough.
Did you watch the video of Earls try above and Cave's part in it?0 -
He's better than an okay center judging by his performances there for Munster. Again, I'm not going to judge him for Ireland until we have competent coaches, especially when he's been electric any time our attack has actually managed to get going (ie rarely).Deleted User wrote: »I get this, but the thing is is that he's already a fantastic winger. He's an okay centre. This is being ignored wholly here. We can spend ages waiting for him to become an all-round superstar that I don't think he has the head for, meaning that we do two things
1 - Cost ourselves the opportunity of seeing what a natural second centre might be able to do in an Ireland jersey with a class winger outside him.
2- Stop our class winger playing on the wing and becoming a world class winger, a game he has all the instincts for.
I'm not going to scapegoat Earls for our awful attack in the same way others will scapegoat BOD or Sexton or god knows who else. Judging by his play there at provincial level he has far more ability than you want to give him credit for.
I meant his first start. I think I do anyway, I just remember he was very good.His first game was as a winger.
Oh right, so you've changed the criteria now. I'm not making it up any more. He actually has displayed an ability to run great lines and make breaks. Now he's just not doing it enough. Well the truth is that he does it as regularly as any other 13 in Ireland. It's a strength of his and has been for years and years. I think his passing past the line could be better but only playing 13 is going to develop that part of his game.It's his overall running game that has issues. Darron Gibson will have plenty of great goals in his showcase at the end of his career, but looking at the times that it worked and ignoring all the others will cloud your judgement of him.
Again, it's not in particular that anyone takes better lines, its making better decisions. Knowing when to run, when not to, knowing when to delay a pass, knowing when to push his winger out to the next attacker that he doesn't have. Griffin and O'Malley both have a more natural game in this regard, as does Cave as well as having consistency here too.
What about the other coaches? McGahan played him at 13 as well. Downey hasn't had a broken arm for all of Earls games has he?Because Downey has a broken arm.
Because BOD is injured and Kidney needed someone to play 13 and has never been enamoured with Cave.
You know these answers already!
The only coach who ever thought Earls was an 11 was Kidney. That itself should set alarm bells ringing.And Luke Fitzgerald said that he doesn't like inside centre and that it doesn't suit his game and everybody else thinks that his skillset is really well aligned to the position. Then he has a run of games there and does really well, manages to play himself into a good run of form.
But again, Fitz knows best.
ROG also believes he's playing above International Standard.
You're picking and choosing logic akin to some of the less rational posters on here.
Fitzgerald played a couple of games there when the internationals were away and then immediately switched back to his best position.
I'm not saying what Earls is saying he likes. I'm saying what he says he is.
The claim that Earls is a winger is completely wrong. There is no way to claim he is, he plays a different position and has done the majority of his life.0 -
Fireball07 wrote: »
As for Earls knowing best about himself, I wouldn't agree with that entirely... you're right to bring up the Fitz and ROG points. Some people do have a different perception of their ability to reality.
As I've pointed out before, Fitz isn't the best example considering when he made that call he was short on confidence coming back from an injury.
Ruan Pienaar is the perfect example of someone who wasn't happy to be shoved from pillar to post and stuck to his guns of wanting to play SH. He has proved them all wrong by now becoming SA first choice SH even though he doesn't play in SA anymore.
For the record, Earls says doesn't really mind whether he plays 12 or 13 - he just wants to be in a position where he can get his hands on the ball a lot more than he would on the wings.
I suspect Penney suspects his pace might be wasted at 12 and that is why he is moving Casey to 12 and leaving Earls at 13.0 -
irishbucsfan wrote: »
Oh right, so you've changed the criteria now. I'm not making it up any more. He actually has displayed an ability to run great lines and make breaks. Now he's just not doing it enough. Well the truth is that he does it as regularly as any other 13 in Ireland. It's a strength of his and has been for years and years. I think his passing past the line could be better but only playing 13 is going to develop that part of his game.
Stop.
I am not going to search out a negative example for every positive that you trot out. I'm not as pedantic and basically boring as that. Tit for Tat is not what I'm going to engage in.
I watch an awful lot of rugby, I post on here when I do a lot of the time. While watching all that rugby, I've formed the opinion that Earls' game is suited to the left wing. I think he makes poor decisions, he is greedy when he shouldn't be, he is just not a natural 13 at all imo.irishbucsfan wrote: »What about the other coaches? McGahan played him at 13 as well. Downey hasn't had a broken arm for all of Earls games has he?
There were no other options. Danny Barnes?
I'm going to be a bit of a dick here, and be overtly childish, but this is literally how I see this situation. Perhaps the weighting is different and clearly more intricate, but at the end of the day that is how to balance the choices for a team.
Imagine Top Trumps. Earls is a 7 centre and an 8.5 winger
Danny Barnes is a 4 centre. Murphy is a 6.5 winger.
13. Earls 11. Murphy = 13.5.
13 Barnes 11. Earls = 12.5irishbucsfan wrote: »Fitzgerald played a couple of games there when the internationals were away and then immediately switched back to his best position.
I'm not saying what Earls is saying he likes. I'm saying what he says he is.
The claim that Earls is a winger is completely wrong. There is no way to claim he is, he plays a different position and has done the majority of his life.
His instincts are towards the try line. Him. Ball. Tryline. I've not developed this opinion over 3 weeks. You've said it yourself, I've talked about it plenty of times before. He has killer instinct that an 11 needs. He does not have creative instinct that a 13 requires.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Imagine Top Trumps. Earls is a 7 centre and an 8.5 winger
Danny Barnes is a 4 centre. Murphy is a 6.5 winger.
13. Earls 11. Murphy = 13.5.
13 Barnes 11. Earls = 12.5
What marks would you give Zebo & O'Dea as wingers (as they would be ahead of Murphy in the Munster pecking order).0
This discussion has been closed.
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