Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't trust them. Particularly after giving Kidney a contract extension just before the RWC after the same move blew up in their face so drastically only 4 effin years ago.

Did it blow up in their faces though? Eddie O'Sullivan resigned gracefully.

If they hadn't given him a contract and Ireland performed they way they did, the poor performance would have been put down to him being unsure of his future with Ireland and the IRFU would have got stick for that.

Podge_irl

jm08 wrote: »

Did it blow up in their faces though? Eddie O'Sullivan resigned gracefully.

He most certainly did not. He farcically continued on until the next 6 Nations before a hiding against England (sounds familiar) saw him leave the job. He also received a massive payout from the IRFU - the very payout some people are claiming is keeping Kidney in a job.

Besides, the monetary concerns aside, it blew up in their faces in that it turned out to be a horrendously bad decision.

Lelantos wrote: »

Ok, the HC is geared beautifully for Irish teams to do well. They can concentrate on the competition, generally throw their squad players into 75% of rabo games & expect a win. French teams can't afford to do this, they live & die by top14.

This is rehashing an old argument, but French teams routinely rest players for away games.

I never called either Kidney or EOS a great coach. EOS was an excellent tactical coach and a brilliant backs coach, but was far too dictatorial and too reliant on certain players. He was also there too long. Kidney was/is a good man manager when a team is successful and is generally good at building a team of coaches around him, but again is too reliant on certain players, is maddeningly obstinate about addressing the problems with the team and just comes across as an idiot in his interviews when things are going poorly - as if he didn't even notice the problem. He was blessed with a ridiculously good pack at Munster and played to their strengths - this is the first time in professional rugby that he has had to really deal with a struggling team and its not going well (there was also his sojourn in Leinster with a team with obvious problems that didn't end so hot either).

Gatland is a better coach now then he was when he was with Ireland. However, he brought the team on a lot while he was there.

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

Look, its simple. Practice makes perfect. Having Jerry Flannery, POC & DOC & Hayes practicing the lineout every day means they are going to perfect it. Same with having Horan, Flannery & Hayes practicing their scrummaging together rather than meeting up a week before a match. Peter Stringer didn't even have to look because he knew where O'Gara would be.

It gave Ireland an edge.

Yet Kidney has the opportunity to pick a settled, multiple time HEC winning half back combination, who have also started in Irelands best two performances in the last few years, yet he refuses to do so. If settled combinations are so important then why does he refuse to do so? Looks like your either overplaying the issue or Kidney is a poor coach for missing this obvious, "simple" way to improve the side.

Foxtrol

totallegend wrote: »

Why are you even bothering?

At this stage I really should know better...

dtpc191991

D

Lelantos wrote: »

Ok, the HC is geared beautifully for Irish teams to do well. They can concentrate on the competition, generally throw their squad players into 75% of rabo games & expect a win. French teams can't afford to do this, they live & die by top14. On the international scene the field is level, and we come up short, Kidney was called a great coach, so was EOS & so was the current Lions coach, yet all were/are hounded out of the Irish job.
Yes, the buck stops with the coach, but, we aren't as good a combined unit as we think we are. We possibly have 5 world class players in the country.How many would get into the AB's? We have 120 pro players, its not a sleight on our team, what other country has as small a pool as ours & continues to "punch above their weight" to the extent we do?

We are not NZ and we are never going to be on par with them but as you said we have 5 world class players. I dont think anyone in the NH with the exception of the French could boast more. Based on that alone we should be mounting a realistic challenge for the 6n every year. Yet we dont. That is down to the fact that we are under performing which is down to the tactics and the coach.

totallegend

Podge_irl wrote: »

Gatland is a better coach now then he was when he was with Ireland. However, he brought the team on a lot while he was there.

I'd say a lot of posters on here, and certainly a lot of the wider rugby-watching public, don't realise just how grim things were before Gatland arrived.

We were absolutely awful, the Ireland team of the mid-90s was just a terrible, terrible team and we had one failed coach after another. It's like 'Nam, if you weren't there, you don't know how bad it was man.

Gatland arrived in, no-one knew anything about him. In one of his very first matches, he came within a whisker of beating France in Paris; this was unheard of at the time. Gatland's problem was that the stand-out memory from his tenure is the 1999 World Cup and 'that' game in Lens, but let's look at what he did for Ireland in the long-term.

Brian O'Driscoll, Gordon D'Arcy, Geordan Murphy, Girvan Dempsey, Shane Horgan, Ronan O'Gara, Peter Stringer, Simon Easterby, David Wallace, John Hayes, Marcus Horan, Alan Quinlan and probably a good few more all made their debuts under Gatland. He wasn't afraid to throw lads into the mix, even if they were very young; D'Arcy made his debut in a World Cup aged 18.

It's a policy that he's continued at Wales and he's reaped unbelievable success from it; Halfpenny, North, Cuthbert, Davis, Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton, Priestland; go off and look at the age profile of these guys (and when they made their international debuts). Sure, for every George North there's a Tom Prydie, but my point is that you have to try things out, you have to roll the dice if you're to have any hope of winning.

So; was Gatland simply blessed with a 'Golden Generation' of players? Is it the case, as Tony Ward would have us believe, that the current crop just don't measure up?

Or is it the case that, by Kidney being so slow to throw new guys into the mix, some of our players have missed the boat on reaching their full potential as internationals? That by not being exposed to the rigours of tests against the likes of South Africa, they didn't get the chance to become the players they could have been?

Take Mike McCarthy as an example; his first meaningful game for Ireland comes against South Africa and he played a stormer. Is it the case that he suddenly became a top-class lock overnight at age 30? Or is it more likely that he's been capable of this type of performance for a long time but just wasn't given the chance?

You could say in Kidney's defence, "well, he picked Zebo last weekend and all he got on Boards was abuse", but that would miss the point entirely. Kidney only picked Zebo because he had to pick some unknown quantity to fill Kearney's boots; boots that had no logical replacement due to Kidney's chronic disdain for squad development.

The true benefits of Gatland's tenure were only reaped after he was sacked, when the likes of O'Driscoll, Easterby, Horgan, Stringer and O'Gara were collecting their Triple Crowns under Eddie.

What worries me is that the true ill-effects of Kidney's reign will only become apparent when he's gone.

jm08

So, let me try and get through this logic.

jm08 wrote: »

Look, its simple. Practice makes perfect. Having Jerry Flannery, POC & DOC & Hayes practicing the lineout every day means they are going to perfect it. Same with having Horan, Flannery & Hayes practicing their scrummaging together rather than meeting up a week before a match. Peter Stringer didn't even have to look because he knew where O'Gara would be.

It gave Ireland an edge.

Kidney should play an all Leinster team, considering Nacewa is the only NIQ player in the Leinster squad. Would Bowe playing 14 for Ireland mean that nobody knows the moves properly?

jm08 wrote: »

Did it blow up in their faces though? Eddie O'Sullivan resigned gracefully.

If they hadn't given him a contract and Ireland performed they way they did, the poor performance would have been put down to him being unsure of his future with Ireland and the IRFU would have got stick for that.

And then Kidney is to resign to prevent this blowing up in the IRFU's face.

right....

desertcircus

It bugs the hell out of me when people claim that Irish teams have a perfect setup for the HC and ignore the restraints on signings. In Leinster's semi last year, Clermont fielded Davit Zirakashvili, Jamie Cudmore, Nathan Hines, Brock James, Sitiveni Sivivatu and Lee Byrne. Leinster had Thorn, Nacewa and the already-nearly-Irish Strauss. If the Pro12 suddenly became highly competitive, and Leinster were simultaneously allowed to sign Eben Etzebeth, Steffon Armitage and Ma'a Nonu to replace Cullen, Jennings and BOD/Darcy, would they really be worse off?

JRant

jm08 wrote: »

Look, its simple. Practice makes perfect. Having Jerry Flannery, POC & DOC & Hayes practicing the lineout every day means they are going to perfect it. Same with having Horan, Flannery & Hayes practicing their scrummaging together rather than meeting up a week before a match. Peter Stringer didn't even have to look because he knew where O'Gara would be.

It gave Ireland an edge.

Your answering your own question there. If Kidney was picking on form over the last couple of seasons the team would be mostly Leinster, a few Ulster and the odd Munster player. But thats not what happened now is it?

molloyjh

totallegend wrote: »

I'd say a lot of posters on here, and certainly a lot of the wider rugby-watching public, don't realise just how grim things were before Gatland arrived.

We were absolutely awful, the Ireland team of the mid-90s was just a terrible, terrible team and we had one failed coach after another. It's like 'Nam, if you weren't there, you don't know how bad it was man.

Gatland arrived in, no-one knew anything about him. In one of his very first matches, he came within a whisker of beating France in Paris; this was unheard of at the time. Gatland's problem was that the stand-out memory from his tenure is the 1999 World Cup and 'that' game in Lens, but let's look at what he did for Ireland in the long-term.

Brian O'Driscoll, Gordon D'Arcy, Geordan Murphy, Girvan Dempsey, Shane Horgan, Ronan O'Gara, Peter Stringer, Simon Easterby, David Wallace, John Hayes, Marcus Horan, Alan Quinlan and probably a good few more all made their debuts under Gatland. He wasn't afraid to throw lads into the mix, even if they were very young; D'Arcy made his debut in a World Cup aged 18.

It's a policy that he's continued at Wales and he's reaped unbelievable success from it; Halfpenny, North, Cuthbert, Davis, Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton, Priestland; go off and look at the age profile of these guys (and when they made their international debuts). Sure, for every George North there's a Tom Prydie, but my point is that you have to try things out, you have to roll the dice if you're to have any hope of winning.

So; was Gatland simply blessed with a 'Golden Generation' of players? Is it the case, as Tony Ward would have us believe, that the current crop just don't measure up?

Or is it the case that, by Kidney being so slow to throw new guys into the mix, some of our players have missed the boat on reaching their full potential as internationals? That by not being exposed to the rigours of tests against the likes of South Africa, they didn't get the chance to become the players they could have been?

Take Mike McCarthy as an example; his first meaningful game for Ireland comes against South Africa and he played a stormer. Is it the case that he suddenly became a top-class lock overnight at age 30? Or is it more likely that he's been capable of this type of performance for a long time but just wasn't given the chance?

You could say in Kidney's defence, "well, he picked Zebo last weekend and all he got on Boards was abuse", but that would miss the point entirely. Kidney only picked Zebo because he had to pick some unknown quantity to fill Kearney's boots; boots that had no logical replacement due to Kidney's chronic disdain for squad development.

The true benefits of Gatland's tenure were only reaped after he was sacked, when the likes of O'Driscoll, Easterby, Horgan, Stringer and O'Gara were collecting their Triple Crowns under Eddie.

What worries me is that the true ill-effects of Kidney's reign will only become apparent when he's gone.

I always thought Gatland got a bit of a raw deal here. Would very much agree with the above. As for EOS I'd hope most rugby fans realise how good he was. We were so consistent during his tenure up until the RWC 2007. He was unfortunate not to come away with a 6 Nations Championship or two. He took us as far as he could and just stayed on that little bit too long. I was calling for him to leave in 2008 but not based on years of underperforming. I'm calling for DK to leave now based purely on years of underperforming.

jm08

Podge_irl wrote: »

He most certainly did not. He farcically continued on until the next 6 Nations before a hiding against England (sounds familiar) saw him leave the job. He also received a massive payout from the IRFU - the very payout some people are claiming is keeping Kidney in a job.

Besides, the monetary concerns aside, it blew up in their faces in that it turned out to be a horrendously bad decision.

Unless the IRFU coughed up 4 years contract money (which they would have been legally obliged to do), his resignation was gracious.

Foxtrol wrote: »

Yet Kidney has the opportunity to pick a settled, multiple time HEC winning half back combination, who have also started in Irelands best two performances in the last few years, yet he refuses to do so. If settled combinations are so important then why does he refuse to do so? Looks like your either overplaying the issue or Kidney is a poor coach for missing this obvious, "simple" way to improve the side.

Your doing Sexton & Reddan no favours by continually referring to two decent performances. I can think of a few less than impressive displays by Reddan in particular in the last couple of seasons (SA 2010 and the ABs the same year. I think his performance against the ABs was one of the worst performances by a SH that I've ever seen).

totallegend wrote: »

Gatland arrived in, no-one knew anything about him. In one of his very first matches, he came within a whisker of beating France in Paris; this was unheard of at the time. Gatland's problem was that the stand-out memory from his tenure is the 1999 World Cup and 'that' game in Lens, but let's look at what he did for Ireland in the long-term.

Gatland had coached Galwegians, Leinster & Connacht Rugby. He was coaching Connacht when he became Ireland coach.

Brian O'Driscoll, Gordon D'Arcy, Geordan Murphy, Girvan Dempsey, Shane Horgan, Ronan O'Gara, Peter Stringer, Simon Easterby, David Wallace, John Hayes, Marcus Horan, Alan Quinlan and probably a good few more all made their debuts under Gatland. He wasn't afraid to throw lads into the mix, even if they were very young; D'Arcy made his debut in a World Cup aged 18.

He made a 20 minute appearance against Romania in the '99 world cup in Lansdowne Road. He didn't start a game for Ireland until 2004 (he had a few cameo appearances (4) against the likes of Fiji, Tonga and Samoa in the meantime).

Deleted User wrote: »

So, let me try and get through this logic.

Kidney should play an all Leinster team, considering Nacewa is the only NIQ player in the Leinster squad. Would Bowe playing 14 for Ireland mean that nobody knows the moves properly?

Let me try and get your logic. You think its no benefit to Leinster that the team train reglarly together? Nacewa could live down in Galway and train with Connacht and turn up for his game at the weekend for Leinster and slot right in. :pac:

JRant wrote: »

Your answering your own question there. If Kidney was picking on form over the last couple of seasons the team would be mostly Leinster, a few Ulster and the odd Munster player. But thats not what happened now is it?

No unfortunately, that didn't happen. Brad Thorn & Johann Muller are NIQ, so Kidney has to resort to Paul O"Connell! On the plus side, we'll now probably have an all Leinster front row starting though of Healy, Straus, Ross.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Let me try and get your logic. You think its no benefit to Leinster that the team train reglarly together? Nacewa could live down in Galway and train with Connacht and turn up for his game at the weekend for Leinster and slot right in. :pac:

That's not what I'm saying, nor is it the opposite of what you're saying.

As always, when asked a question about what you believe "should have been done" you deflect.

Read your post again, see how it highlights an "issue" that DK struggles to deal with. See that I have proposed a solution which directly answers that "issue". Instead of deflecting, perhaps address it?

What you're saying is that Leinster would be weakened if POC, Donnacha Ryan, Peter O'Mahoney and Rory Best joined the team on a Tuesday for a Saturday game.

IF

You fully subscribe to that, then surely DK's best team would simply be Leinster's 14 IQ players with Tommy Bowe on the right wing?

Considering that Leinster have been HEC winners in 3 of the last 4 seasons?

Problem -> Solution

Foxtrol

jm08 wrote: »

Your doing Sexton & Reddan no favours by continually referring to two decent performances. I can think of a few less than impressive displays by Reddan in particular in the last couple of seasons (SA 2010 and the ABs the same year. I think his performance against the ABs was one of the worst performances by a SH that I've ever seen).

Good old jm, glossing over the core of my post and then try to draw in other events to try to muddy the waters.

If you think provincial partnerships are so important I presume you agree with me that Murray should be dropped for Reddan?

jm08

Maybe you should reread what I posted. All I claimed was that having players like POC & DOC, or D'Arcy, BOD, Hickie, Horgan & Dempsey training & playing together every day (rather than the odd week here or there), gave Ireland an edge.

You may remember in Gatland first 6Ns with Wales (he was appointed just after the rugby world cup), he picked the Ospreys en masse (11-12 players) and won a Grand Slam with them.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Maybe you should reread what I posted. All I claimed was that having players like POC & DOC, or D'Arcy, BOD, Hickie, Horgan & Dempsey training & playing together every day (rather than the odd week here or there), gave Ireland an edge.

You may remember in Gatland first 6Ns with Wales (he was appointed just after the rugby world cup), he picked the Ospreys en masse (11-12 players) and won a Grand Slam with them.

maybe you should respond to my proposed solution

Give Ireland back it's edge by picking the Leinster team with Tommy Bowe on the right wing.

Fwiw, I don't believe that that's the best team, nor the team with the most edge. But it is the logical progression from what you are saying!

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

maybe you should respond to my proposed solution

Give Ireland back it's edge by picking the Leinster team with Tommy Bowe on the right wing.

Fwiw, I don't believe that that's the best team, nor the team with the most edge. But it is the logical progression from what you are saying!

It would work like in the old days if Leinster's first teamers were available (BOD, Luke & Kearney).

edit: for example:

Team v Wales for GS: Kearney, Bowe, BOD, D'Arcy, Luke Fitz, ROG, TOL. Horan, Flannery, Hayes, DOC, POC, Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip,


further edit: just looking at that lineup - only one of them didn't get a Lions callup - Horan. Compare that to the starters last weekend against SA. Only Lions tourists starting were D'Arcy, Bowe, Earls & Heaslip.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

It would work like in the old days if Leinster's first teamers were available (BOD, Luke & Kearney).

So in your estimation, Declan Kidney has failed massively by not picking the Leinster Team in the last 3 years? He, as head selector has missed this trick repeatedly in picking players that don't play for the HEC winning champions. Ireland would have had an edge if he'd done that, and he's to blame for the selection issues?

Again, this is like getting blood from a stone. Logic processes that have no discernible roots in rationality nor are commutable!

Clegg

It should be pointed out that D'arcy only became a regular in 2004 because he had attitude problems according to his coaches. EOS really should have selected him much sooner.

Anyway we know that Kidney will stay until his contract runs out. He's turned into a crap coach and needs to be put out of his misery so we can all move.

Tox56

Didn't know Bowe played for Leinster jm

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

So in your estimation, Declan Kidney has failed massively by not picking the Leinster Team in the last 3 years? He, as head selector has missed this trick repeatedly in picking players that don't play for the HEC winning champions. Ireland would have had an edge if he'd done that, and he's to blame for the selection issues?

Again, this is like getting blood from a stone. Logic processes that have no discernible roots in rationality nor are commutable!

How could he pick Luke, Kearney or BOD - all 3 have had a lot of injuries/(loss of form - luke) to contend with over the last couple of years. When fit, they have been selected.

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

Didn't know Bowe played for Leinster jm

Fixed it now!

jm08

Clegg wrote: »

It should be pointed out that D'arcy only became a regular in 2004 because he had attitude problems according to his coaches. EOS really should have selected him much sooner.

Not just his coaches, according to himself. It seems he liked partying a lot. Maybe Gatland did him no favours by selecting him so young when he was too immature to make the necessary sacrifices to be a professional player. He credits a former teacher/coach for getting him back on the straight and narrow.

danthefan

Did I seriously read a suggestion on the previous page that our scrum is now weaker than it was with Horan and Hayes propping?

What a complete disconnect from reality.

Fishooks12

danthefan wrote: »

Did I seriously read a suggestion on the previous page that our scrum is now weaker than it was with Horan and Hayes propping?

What a complete disconnect from reality.

I must have missed that, where was it suggested?

Foxtrol

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I must have missed that, where was it suggested?

jm08 wrote: »

Look, its simple. Practice makes perfect... Same with having Horan, Flannery & Hayes practicing their scrummaging together rather than meeting up a week before a match...

It gave Ireland an edge.

:rolleyes:

CIARAN_BOYLE

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I must have missed that, where was it suggested?

Closest I can find

jm08 wrote: »

Look, its simple. Practice makes perfect. Having Jerry Flannery, POC & DOC & Hayes practicing the lineout every day means they are going to perfect it. Same with having Horan, Flannery & Hayes practicing their scrummaging together rather than meeting up a week before a match. Peter Stringer didn't even have to look because he knew where O'Gara would be.

It gave Ireland an edge.

.ak

jm08 wrote: »

I think that it really helped the national side that all/most the pack came from Munster and all the backs came from Leinster. Now its far more mixed up, so the advantage of having your tight five, half-backs, outside backs training together and playing every week together in units was a huge advantage for Ireland.

Well you've just made an argument for Reddan and Sexton to start every game together then.

Fishooks12

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Closest I can find

As ridiculous an argument as that is. I think it would be a serious leap to suggest that he was calling Horan Hayes a better front row than Ross and Healy

Foxtrol

.ak wrote: »

Well you've just made an argument for Reddan and Sexton to start every game together then.

I asked him directly if he agrees then that Murray shouldnt be starting ahead of Reddan and he has so far refused to respond (probably because I didnt give him any ammo to try to deflect from the point to take the discussion off on a tangent).

Foxtrol

Fishooks12 wrote: »

As ridiculous an argument as that is. I think it would be a serious leap to suggest that he was calling Horan Hayes a better front row than Ross and Healy

No, he clearly said Ireland previously had an edge due to provincial partnerships working together and used the front row as an example. What are you suggesting he meant?