Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

jm08 · 14-11-2012 1:18pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

As ridiculous an argument as that is. I think it would be a serious leap to suggest that he was calling Horan Hayes a better front row than Ross and Healy

You'd be right. My thinking would be more of a 'how awful would the scrum have been if they weren't training together as much as they were'!

edit: but we had a sh*t hot lineout and maul.

keane2097 · 14-11-2012 1:18pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

As ridiculous an argument as that is. I think it would be a serious leap to suggest that he was calling Horan Hayes a better front row than Ross and Healy

In which case that front row wasn't actually an edge at all.

Fishooks12 · 14-11-2012 1:20pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

No, he clearly said Ireland previously had an edge due to provincial partnerships working together and used the front row as an example. What are you suggesting he meant?

Relax, only saw it now. Obviously that's a ridiculous statement

We've one of the best front-rows in world rugby atm

jm08 · 14-11-2012 1:25pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

I asked him directly if he agrees then that Murray shouldnt be starting ahead of Reddan and he has so far refused to respond (probably because I didnt give him any ammo to try to deflect from the point to take the discussion off on a tangent).

No, I don't. I don't rate Reddan as an international scrumhalf and not worth wasting too much time on him as he is into his 30s.

Murray is still young and learning. He has started about 5/6 games with Sexton. He should be given about the same amount of time as Sexton got to acclimatise. After that, I'd hope some of the others progress like Marshall and Marmian. Unfortunately, neither of those are at Leinster to partner Sexton.

Fishooks12 · 14-11-2012 1:27pm

jm08 wrote: »

No, I don't. I don't rate Reddan as an international scrumhalf and not worth wasting too much time on him as he is into his 30s.

Murray is still young and learning. He has started about 5/6 games with Sexton. He should be given about the same amount of time as Sexton got to acclimatise. After that, I'd hope some of the others progress like Marshall and Marmian. Unfortunately, neither of those are at Leinster to partner Sexton.

Murray Reddan debate in 3,2,1.........

Tox56 · 14-11-2012 1:36pm

jm08 wrote: »

No, I don't. I don't rate Reddan as an international scrumhalf and not worth wasting too much time on him as he is into his 30s.

Murray is still young and learning. He has started about 5/6 games with Sexton. He should be given about the same amount of time as Sexton got to acclimatise. After that, I'd hope some of the others progress like Marshall and Marmian. Unfortunately, neither of those are at Leinster to partner Sexton.

So you want to see Jackson on the bench instead of ROG from now on?

14-11-2012 1:37pm

jm08 wrote: »

No, I don't. I don't rate Reddan as an international scrumhalf and not worth wasting too much time on him as he is into his 30s.

Murray is still young and learning. He has started about 5/6 games with Sexton. He should be given about the same amount of time as Sexton got to acclimatise. After that, I'd hope some of the others progress like Marshall and Marmian. Unfortunately, neither of those are at Leinster to partner Sexton.

but think of the EDGE jm08, the EDGE

who_me · 14-11-2012 1:39pm

Tox56 wrote: »

So you want to see Jackson on the bench instead of ROG from now on?

At this point, I think even most Munster fans would prefer to see one of Jackson, Madigan or Keatley given a shot ahead of O'Gara.

jm08 · 14-11-2012 1:41pm

Tox56 wrote: »

So you want to see Jackson on the bench instead of ROG from now on?

I'd be delighted to see Jackson on the bench for Ireland if he was going to get significant game time (like 25 mins at least) and not just sat there warming the pine.

I also think he would need to get a run of games (i.e., putting aside any idea of introducing Madigan or Keatley into the international set-up for a while).

jm08 · 14-11-2012 1:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

but think of the EDGE jm08, the EDGE

I suppose the solution then is to get either Marshall or Marmion to move to Leinster. It wouldn't be the first time that a SH from another province has turned up there!

JRant · 14-11-2012 2:07pm

jm08 wrote: »

I suppose the solution then is to get either Marshall or Marmion to move to Leinster. It wouldn't be the first time that a SH from another province has turned up there!

Hilarious, by the way how many NIQ's do the boy's in red have in the starting team this year?
Gatland picked the majority of O's players because they were the form team = grandslam
Kidney picks the majority of Munster players because they were on form = grandslam 2009
Kidney keeps picking mostly Munster players previous 2 seasons because Munster were out of form = 8 defeats from 10.
By the way, this has nothing to do with Munster, its completely down to DK not being able to see the wood for the trees. If a club/province is dominating at home or Europe they make up the majority of the international panel. This goes for Wales, France, England etc.

.ak · 14-11-2012 2:09pm

Reddan has more silverware than any other SH in the country. Recent silverware too. He's the best SH in the country by those terms. So I don't buy the fact that he's not international standard - or at the very least I don't buy the claim he's not the best option there.

Foxtrol · 14-11-2012 2:15pm

jm08 wrote: »

No, I don't. I don't rate Reddan as an international scrumhalf and not worth wasting too much time on him as he is into his 30s.

Murray is still young and learning. He has started about 5/6 games with Sexton. He should be given about the same amount of time as Sexton got to acclimatise. After that, I'd hope some of the others progress like Marshall and Marmian. Unfortunately, neither of those are at Leinster to partner Sexton.

So the Munster combinations in the past gave us the edge due to working together at provincial level (and then were kept by Kidney well beyond their sell by date at the expense of better players) but rather than employing a Leinster combination (or an Ulster one) we should disrupt them by breaking these combinations up? Is it because Murray is so much a better player that the added benefit of the combinations working together doesnt help or does it perhaps have something to do with what he has in common with the old front row combination??

JRant · 14-11-2012 2:17pm

.ak wrote: »

Reddan has more silverware than any other SH in the country. Recent silverware too. He's the best SH in the country by those terms. So I don't buy the fact that he's not international standard - or at the very least I don't buy the claim he's not the best option there.

+1
He seems to get a hard time due to his 'brainfarts' during games. He throws the odd intercept but you need to break a few eggs to make an omlette if you ask me. Dan Carter threw an intercept at the weekend, these things happen when playing on the edge, and he's about the best rugby player on the planet.

jacothelad · 14-11-2012 2:22pm

jm08 wrote: »

I have a sense of humour thanks. I'm just not 10 years of age.

We know but you will be soon.

jm08 · 14-11-2012 2:25pm

.ak wrote: »

Reddan has more silverware than any other SH in the country. Recent silverware too. He's the best SH in the country by those terms. So I don't buy the fact that he's not international standard - or at the very least I don't buy the claim he's not the best option there.

Ian Dowling has two Heineken Cup medals as well - two more than Denis Hickie. That doesn't mean he was a better winger than Hickie.

jm08 · 14-11-2012 2:26pm

jacothelad wrote: »

We know but you will be soon.

Now thats humourous

Fishooks12 · 14-11-2012 2:40pm

JRant wrote: »

+1
He seems to get a hard time due to his 'brainfarts' during games. He throws the odd intercept but you need to break a few eggs to make an omlette if you ask me. Dan Carter threw an intercept at the weekend, these things happen when playing on the edge, and he's about the best rugby player on the planet.

Reddan is a lot more prone to stupid errors than Dan Carter. It's one of the things that has stopped him from becoming one of the best 9's in the NH imo

jacothelad · 14-11-2012 3:01pm

jm08 wrote: »

I don't think there is a general rule - but I'd expect some informed people to evaluate a coach's performance.

Most commentators recognise that Ireland cannot expect great results because of the injury sitution/aging team. Its just far too easy to blame the manager.

How would you evaluate his performance. Let's say he gets one point for every win against a top 8 side and loses one point for every loss. just to be fair, include 2009 in the deal.

Have these injury problems been going on since Feb 2010? Players have been ageing since - forever. To combat that you bring in fresh faces and filter them in. You don't play guys like Horan, Hayes, ROG, Cullen, Duffy, Wallace etc. in warm up games or Wolfhounds games. You certainly recognise when a player isn't up to it a la Buckley. Anyone with eyes in their head knew he was a duffer when even Munster had the wit to yank him off the field after 26 minutes of one game but not Kidney. If you can't see that he is useless, what the eff are you doing as a coach? We appear to be on the threshold of elevating Stephen Archer to the new Buckley. Smal thinks he is 'a great prospect' in todays Indo. The brutal reality is he wouldn't get near Ulster, Leinster or Connacht's squad at all. Buckley is actually twice the player.

Can you put your finger on the reasons for the collapse of Ireland as a top level rugby side? 2 wins in 2 years against top 8 sides. Losing twice to Scotland. SCOTLAND ffs. They couldn't beat Leinster, Ulster or Munster 19 times out of 20. Now that's consistent I'll give you that. Kidney has been just out of his depth. Unfortunately, he can't simply turn to Munster with the odd Leinster player to solve the problems as O'Sullivan could do. Kidney is trying his best though in that regard and ignoring other options to a large extent. He hasn't realised that there are players worth looking at who don't play in red until his hand is forced by actual injury. Dragging a 33 year old guy, who hasn't played for weeks and who is awaiting shoulder surgery, off a beach to fly 12,000 miles to play against the ABs when there are actual centres out there says what about a coach?

Sorry fella but the jig has been up since the ELVs went out the window. Kidney hasn't the vision or the charisma to lead Ireland. His contract will soon be up and it will be honoured. Let's hope he escapes with his dignity intact because the way he is organising the team is woeful, his leadership abysmal, his selections seem rarely based on how a player is performing, there appears to be no on field plans now that hoofing the ball away is no longer a good idea. No matter how you cut it, he is not the man to be with us now. I'd rather that a very decent seeming man with a great record is remembered for that than as the Jonah whose ultimate failings and partiality to all things Munster ruined a good team.

.ak · 14-11-2012 3:07pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Reddan is a lot more prone to stupid errors than Dan Carter. It's one of the things that has stopped him from becoming one of the best 9's in the NH imo

If I had ever played with a SH that doesn't make a stupid mistake during a game I'd buy him a pint. It's so rare. Weepu, Youngs, Care, Phillips, Para, Yachvilli... they all make silly brainfarts atleast once a game.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 14-11-2012 3:10pm

.ak wrote: »

Reddan has more silverware than any other SH in the country. Recent silverware too. He's the best SH in the country by those terms. So I don't buy the fact that he's not international standard - or at the very least I don't buy the claim he's not the best option there.

Cullen has the most silverware of any Irish locks in the country. By your reasoning he would be the best lock around.

.ak · 14-11-2012 3:11pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Cullen has the most silverware of any Irish locks in the country. By your reasoning he would be the best lock around.

Well.... we never got a chance to see him on the international stage during his prime did we?

ray jay · 14-11-2012 3:14pm

.ak wrote: »

Reddan has more silverware than any other SH in the country. Recent silverware too. He's the best SH in the country by those terms. So I don't buy the fact that he's not international standard - or at the very least I don't buy the claim he's not the best option there.

That's a pretty worthless measure, Cullen and Toner have more recent silverware than any other locks in the country but doesn't mean they should be the national team's first choice.

edit: damn you Captain!

.ak · 14-11-2012 3:17pm

Also, comparing lock to SH is a totally different thing. The SH is the team's pivot, it's a key position where the pace and style of the team's play is determined. I don't think you can say that about a lock....

Gambas · 14-11-2012 3:31pm

danthefan wrote: »

What? Tony Ward has just brandished basically everyone who talks about rugby on the internet a vitriolic coward or whatever it was. He means you. And he did it in a national newspaper.

I don't think he did. You seem very eager to see it that way though.

JF100 · 14-11-2012 3:31pm

As an aside i have just been to Elvery's at lunchtime; where the black Irish rugby jerseys are "selling out the door like hot cakes..."
Perhaps there was method in the IRFU's madness after all...

Genuine question: does Kidney's contract not expire after the upcoming 6N?
If so, why the big kerfuffle about sacking him in the interim?
Surely it would be more prudent to let him see out his contract & recruit in the off-season (when the qualified potential candidates (international AND domestic) would consider the position rather than a panic attack half way through the season)...

JF100 · 14-11-2012 3:33pm

PS I did not buy one...

Gambas · 14-11-2012 3:33pm

.ak wrote: »

Well.... we never got a chance to see him on the international stage during his prime did we?

Because he wasn't the lock with the most shiney stuff at that time?

JRant · 14-11-2012 3:38pm

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Reddan is a lot more prone to stupid errors than Dan Carter. It's one of the things that has stopped him from becoming one of the best 9's in the NH imo

I'm not trying to compare them though, that would be just plain dumb.
What I'm saying is that errors happen when you try things in attack.
Reddan's errors seem to overshadow all his good work for some people. I'd say he would be starting SH for the majority of 6N's teams

Tomtom364 · 14-11-2012 3:39pm

.ak wrote: »

Also, comparing lock to SH is a totally different thing. The SH is the team's pivot, it's a key position where the pace and style of the team's play is determined. I don't think you can say that about a lock....

Ok... so O'Leary should be back on the bench because he has more silverware then Murray?

Counting silverware is a bit pointless, its a sign of past achivements. Not current form.

To me:

Id like to have Murray/Reddan starting with Marshall on the bench.

As to who starts,
Overall: well personally I think they are very close and their main difference isnt ability but style. I prefer Murray but thats just opinion on, as I said, style of play and I have no problems with either starting.

On Form: I think Murray slightly edges it currently.

Yes im a Munster fan but this isnt bias, it is my opinion in terms of ability. I want the strongest team ( - projects) out there for Ireland, sick of them under preforming.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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