Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

jacothelad

keane2097 wrote: »

In which case that front row wasn't actually an edge at all.

If that front row had an 'edge' so does a soggy chip wrapper.

JF100 wrote: »

As an aside i have just been to Elvery's at lunchtime; where the black Irish rugby jerseys are "selling out the door like hot cakes..."
Perhaps there was method in the IRFU's madness after all...

Genuine question: does Kidney's contract not expire after the upcoming 6N?
If so, why the big kerfuffle about sacking him in the interim?
Surely it would be more prudent to let him see out his contract & recruit in the off-season (when the qualified potential candidates (international AND domestic) would consider the position rather than a panic attack half way through the season)...

Kidney has a contract that should and will be honoured by his employers. In order to replace him, negotiations and a 'trawl' should be in place now or imminently. If Ireland wish to have an Irish national as coach, who do you think will get it? Bradley? Kidney again? O'Shea has a contract with 'Quins. Elwood hasn't really shown any real success on his c.v. McLaughlin was decent enough at Ulster but they knew his limitations and acted. McCall is probably the best candidate but he'll never be appointed because of his connections to Ulster in the past. If the position is to be open to international applicants, then they need time to prepare etc and a successful guy needs time to arrange family matters etc. This doesn't seem to be the case as we speak.

A speedy decision is also needed regarding Kidney's increasingly disastrous tenure and needs to be arrived at p.d.q. To be fair to him he needs notice of his future. There are plenty of schools that would snap him up. He could go bqack to Munster in some capacity. We would all like that. Perhaps he is deluded enough to think that he will get a new contract. Perhaps the IRFU appointments team are deluded enough to think that is the way to go. Actually, if Kidney had a bit of self awareness, he would quietly and privately discuss an early get-out with the IRFU that would be beneficial to everyone concerned. Especially the playing professionals of Ireland.

Tomtom364

jacothelad wrote: »

If that front row had an 'edge' so does a soggy chip wrapper.



Kidney has a contract that should and will be honoured by his employers. In order to replace him, negotiations and a 'trawl' should be in place now or imminently. If Ireland wish to have an Irish national as coach, who do you think will get it? Bradley? Kidney again? O'Shea has a contract with 'Quins. Elwood hasn't really shown any real success on his c.v. McLaughlin was decent enough at Ulster but they knew his limitations and acted. McCall is probably the best candidate but he'll never be appointed because of his connections to Ulster in the past. If the position is to be open to international applicants, then they need time to prepare etc and a successful guy needs time to arrange family matters etc. This doesn't seem to be the case as we speak.

A speedy decision is also needed regarding Kidney's increasingly disastrous tenure needs to be arrived at p.d.q. To be fair to him he needs notice of his future. There are plenty of schools that would snap him up. He could go bqack to Munster in some capacity. We would all like that. Perhaps he is deluded enough to think that he will get a new contract. Perhaps the IRFU appointments team are deluded enough to think that is the way to go. Actually, if Kidney had a bit of self awareness, he would quietly and privately discuss an early get-out with the IRFU that would be beneficial to everyone concerned. Especially the playing professionals of Ireland.

If I remember correctly, Kidney is actually still a registered teacher in Pres in Cork, just on sabbatical/hiatus or something like that and plans on returning to teach, and one can assume coach, there.

jacothelad

Tomtom364 wrote: »

If I remember correctly, Kidney is actually still a registered teacher in Pres in Cork, just on sabbatical/hiatus or something like that and plans on returning to teach, and one can assume coach, there.

I've got the taxi fare for him.:D

bilston

jacothelad wrote: »

If that front row had an 'edge' so does a soggy chip wrapper.



Kidney has a contract that should and will be honoured by his employers. In order to replace him, negotiations and a 'trawl' should be in place now or imminently. If Ireland wish to have an Irish national as coach, who do you think will get it? Bradley? Kidney again? O'Shea has a contract with 'Quins. Elwood hasn't really shown any real success on his c.v. McLaughlin was decent enough at Ulster but they knew his limitations and acted. McCall is probably the best candidate but he'll never be appointed because of his connections to Ulster in the past. If the position is to be open to international applicants, then they need time to prepare etc and a successful guy needs time to arrange family matters etc. This doesn't seem to be the case as we speak.

Ideally we'd have an Irish coach but I think next time we need to look elsewhere. We're at too important a stage of our evolution to be stubborn on this issue.

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

How would you evaluate his performance. Let's say he gets one point for every win against a top 8 side and loses one point for every loss. just to be fair, include 2009 in the deal.

Why would you want to leave out 2009 in the first place? Because he didn't lose a game that year including the Churchill Cup?

Have these injury problems been going on since Feb 2010?

A lot of players some to have been very injury prone since the last Lions tour - Kearney, Luke Fitz, POC, BOD, Horan, Ferris, Wally, Denis Leamy, Jerry Flannery, D'Arcy, Shane Horgan, Rory Best, Tomas O'Leary all have had their injury woes. Players like Luke Fitz has hardly played for Ireland in the last 4 years.

Players have been ageing since - forever. To combat that you bring in fresh faces and filter them in. You don't play guys like Horan, Hayes, ROG, Cullen, Duffy, Wallace etc. in warm up games or Wolfhounds games.

You need a little bit of experience as well.

You certainly recognise when a player isn't up to it a la Buckley. Anyone with eyes in their head knew he was a duffer when even Munster had the wit to yank him off the field after 26 minutes of one game but not Kidney. If you can't see that he is useless, what the eff are you doing as a coach? We appear to be on the threshold of elevating Stephen Archer to the new Buckley. Smal thinks he is 'a great prospect' in todays Indo. The brutal reality is he wouldn't get near Ulster, Leinster or Connacht's squad at all. Buckley is actually twice the player.

Remind me where all the other great options were - Dec Fitzpatrick on the physio's table - he has played about 20 games for Ulster in his entire career. He is always injured or Andress not even with a club or Mike Ross behind CJ VdeLinde and Stan for Leinster.

Can you put your finger on the reasons for the collapse of Ireland as a top level rugby side? 2 wins in 2 years against top 8 sides.

Yes.

Losing twice to Scotland. SCOTLAND ffs. They couldn't beat Leinster, Ulster or Munster 19 times out of 20.

A lot of that was down to Sexton having problems converting penalties into points with his boot.

Now that's consistent I'll give you that. Kidney has been just out of his depth. Unfortunately, he can't simply turn to Munster with the odd Leinster player to solve the problems as O'Sullivan could do. Kidney is trying his best though in that regard and ignoring other options to a large extent. He hasn't realised that there are players worth looking at who don't play in red until his hand is forced by actual injury.

We've seen the results when his hand is forced - they are not any prettier.

Dragging a 33 year old guy, who hasn't played for weeks and who is awaiting shoulder surgery, off a beach to fly 12,000 miles to play against the ABs when there are actual centres out there says what about a coach?

Did he not play alongside Darran Cave against the Ba-Baas just before they flew out and was he not keeping himself fit in Belfast before he went? Was it the start, middle or end of his beach holiday?

Sorry fella but the jig has been up since the ELVs went out the window. Kidney hasn't the vision or the charisma to lead Ireland.

Matt Williams would be the man for the charisma job !

His contract will soon be up and it will be honoured. Let's hope he escapes with his dignity intact because the way he is organising the team is woeful, his leadership abysmal, his selections seem rarely based on how a player is performing, there appears to be no on field plans now that hoofing the ball away is no longer a good idea. No matter how you cut it, he is not the man to be with us now. I'd rather that a very decent seeming man with a great record is remembered for that than as the Jonah whose ultimate failings and partiality to all things Munster ruined a good team.

Like I posted, I'm happy to await the decision of informed people and I have no doubt that Kidney will behave with dignity, unlike his detractors.

jm08

JRant wrote: »

I'm not trying to compare them though, that would be just plain dumb.
What I'm saying is that errors happen when you try things in attack.
Reddan's errors seem to overshadow all his good work for some people. I'd say he would be starting SH for the majority of 6N's teams

No he wouldn't. If he was that good he would have been on the last Lions Tour (McGeechan & Gatland would have known all about him from Wasps even if he wasn't starting for Ireland). Its not as if there was a great selection of SHs on the tour once O'Leary was out.

goreyguy

Yeah sure your right, Kidney is doing a great job we should count ourselves lucky to have won any International games this year :rolleyes:

totallegend

JRant

jm08 wrote: »

No he wouldn't. If he was that good he would have been on the last Lions Tour (McGeechan & Gatland would have known all about him from Wasps even if he wasn't starting for Ireland). Its not as if there was a great selection of SHs on the tour once O'Leary was out.

I don't see what selection for the 2009 Lions has to do with Reddan's form now.

With the exception of Para I don't think there's been a better SH over the past couple of seasons in the NH.

Judging by the way things are going at the moment with the Irish team there will be few making the trip down under next year either.

JRant

JRant wrote: »

With the exception of Para I don't think there's been a better SH over the past couple of seasons in the NH. .

I think there are probably 3 English scrum halfs, and at least 2 French that I'd pick ahead of him.

He's good, but he's not a top scrum half.

Sindri

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Reddan is a lot more prone to stupid errors than Dan Carter. It's one of the things that has stopped him from becoming one of the best 9's in the NH imo

He's a bit headless and frantic as well at times which can put a lot of pressure on us and our forwards. On that alone, while I think he can do a very good job at what he does, he's just not international standard, but he's close enough. If he wasn't so headless at times he'd be a very capable scrum half.

goreyguy

He is the best Irish SH which is all that matters.

jacothelad

jm08 wrote: »

Why would you want to leave out 2009 in the first place? Because he didn't lose a game that year including the Churchill Cup?

Well, we were discussing the last 2 years of his reign in which Ireland had won two games against top 8 sides, lost twice to Scotland and scraped by Italy by a point. the 2008 /9 side was basically that of EOS but hey - it's only fair to give Kidney the credit for the success so it's equally fair give him the brickbats for the failures. Unless of course you see what he has done with Ireland as successful =- which is apparently the case.

A lot of players some to have been very injury prone since the last
Lions tour - Kearney, Luke Fitz, POC, BOD, Horan, Ferris, Wally, Denis Leamy, Jerry Flannery, D'Arcy, Shane Horgan, Rory Best, Tomas O'Leary all have had their injury woes. Players like Luke Fitz has hardly played for Ireland in the last 4 years.

All sides have injuries. They cope with them by using all the resources at their fingertips. Kidney fails to cope because he ignores better performing players, uses his old mates at every opportunity and plays some team members when they are injured - to their disservice.



You need a little bit of experience as well.

Yes you do. Unless apparently you are Conor Murray, POM, Zebo and now Kilcoyne unless there is an injury crisis. What do those players have in common?



Remind me where all the other great options were - Dec Fitzpatrick on the physio's table - he has played about 20 games for Ulster in his entire career. He is always injured or Andress not even with a club or Mike Ross behind CJ VdeLinde and Stan for Leinster.

Declan Fitzpatrick has played 66 games for Ulster, in many of which he has played very well indeed. Andress has been with Harlequins, Exeter and now is with Worcester and has started every game for them this season. Kidney seemingly just loves Munster props - even those who are to propping what Graham Norton is to cage Fighting - like Buckley and Archer. If he'd bothered his orifice to watch a game with his red tinted specs off perhaps he might have seen things differently. What person in his right mind sees Stephen Archer as a candidate for Ireland as a tight head? Answer. None. Yet there he is. Get out of here.



A lot of that was down to Sexton having problems converting penalties into points with his boot.

How many games were won when O'Gara started? How many points did he miss with his boot?


Did he not play alongside Darran Cave against the Ba-Baas just before they flew out and was he not keeping himself fit in Belfast before he went? Was it the start, middle or end of his beach holiday?

Totally irrelevant. If he wanted him to take part he should have taken him along. You blathered on earlier about how important it is that Munster players practice together so that they play well together. Was it not important for Wallace to be there to do so? If not, why not?



Matt Williams would be the man for the charisma job ! get him at munster then.



Like I posted, I'm happy to await the decision of informed people and I have no doubt that Kidney will behave with dignity, unlike his detractors.

Who are his detractors as opposed to his critics?

desertcircus

jm08 is right. Of course our two losses to Scotland are the fault of Sexton's kicking percentages. Never mind the fact that he missed a grand total of three penalties in those two losses. Or that at least one of them was from long range. Or that in the 10-6 loss, a 100% conversion rate would still have seen us lose. Or that we scored a grand total of two tries in those two games against a team we'd previously beaten every year since at least 2004. It's all down to Sexton's place kicking.

desertcircus

desertcircus wrote: »

jm08 is right. Of course our two losses to Scotland are the fault of Sexton's kicking percentages. Never mind the fact that he missed a grand total of three penalties in those two losses. Or that at least one of them was from long range. Or that in the 10-6 loss, a 100% conversion rate would still have seen us lose. Or that we scored a grand total of two tries in those two games against a team we'd previously beaten every year since at least 2004. It's all down to Sexton's place kicking.

****ing Sexton at it again.

JF100

Any Statto out there to complete the following:

Ireland under Declan Kidney:
Played / Won / Lost / Drawn / Total Points For / Total Points against / Tries for / Tries against

and then to compare ...
Ireland under Declan Kidney v Top 8 international sides:
Played / Won / Lost / Drawn / Total Points For / Total Points against / Tries for / Tries against

[Somebody posted something very similar on this earlier but I can't find it now ... Apologies]
Perhaps there is a statistician's website that I ought to be aware of...

jacothelad

JF100 wrote: »

Any Statto out there to complete the following:

Ireland under Declan Kidney:
Played / Won / Lost / Drawn / Total Points For / Total Points against / Tries for / Tries against

and then to compare ...
Ireland under Declan Kidney v Top 8 international sides:
Played / Won / Lost / Drawn / Total Points For / Total Points against / Tries for / Tries against

[Somebody posted something very similar on this earlier but I can't find it now ... Apologies]

Sep. 2008 to now. All games including wins against Canada twice, U.S.A twice, Russia, Samoa and Fiji, .
Played 47, lost 25, won 20 drawn 2.
1st jan 2010 to now.
Played 34, lost 19, won 14, drawn 1.
1st jan 2011 to now.
Played 23, lost 13, won 9. drawn 1
1st jan 2012 to now
Played 9 lost 6, won 2 drawn 1.

danthefan

Take away the games against the minnows an we're sitting at a 42.5% win percentage since Kidney took over. Including the unbeaten 2009. Pathetic.

who_me

jacothelad wrote: »

...Kidney's increasingly disastrous tenure...

Don't you think that's a tiiiny bit over the top? In his 3 years in charge, we had our best ever 6N result in his first season in charge and our best ever RWC result last season.

Yes, our 6N and RWC record wasn't much to start with; but that just raises the question of why our expectations are set so high? Has the nation collectively forgotten RWC 07?

Why are the players being absolved of all responsibility and the entirety on the coaching staff? This group of players are delivering at provincial level, most certainly. But then look at Kidney's and Smal's records.

It seems to me we're down the football route, our players are heroes who give it everything, the coach is to blame for everything. Fire him quick and get a new one. We're so envious of the Welsh success, maybe we should grab their coach - we'd definitely win Grand Slams with him as Irish coach. .....oh, wait.

jacothelad

who_me wrote: »

Don't you think that's a tiiiny bit over the top? In his 3 years in charge, we had our best ever 6N result in his first season in charge and our best ever RWC result last season.

Yes, our 6N and RWC record wasn't much to start with; but that just raises the question of why our expectations are set so high? Has the nation collectively forgotten RWC 07?

Why are the players being absolved of all responsibility and the entirety on the coaching staff? This group of players are delivering at provincial level, most certainly. But then look at Kidney's and Smal's records.

It seems to me we're down the football route, our players are heroes who give it everything, the coach is to blame for everything. Fire him quick and get a new one. We're so envious of the Welsh success, maybe we should grab their coach - we'd definitely win Grand Slams with him as Irish coach. .....oh, wait.

O.K. He is now in his 5th year in charge, not his third and in the last one played 9 lost 6 won 2. You might be happy with this and no doubt every time you listen to his claptrap the fireworks go off for you but for many - if not most - others he has presided over a shambolic decline. Maybe it's not his fault. Maybe it's the cracks in the pavement. Maybe it's that the new stadium is aligned wrongly in relation to Mars and Venus. Maybe the shirts are made of kryptonite. Or maybe it's his coaching, tactics, strategies and selections. If you want to thank him for the best 6Ns finish, what about our worsr ever run in it. Time to wake up and smell the b.s emanating from Kidneyland.

Tox56

This idea that we're going the way of football by wanting the coach gone has come up a few times, and I just can't understand it at all. If anything the length of Kidney's tenure (and the reluctance to sack him) shows how far away we are from a football attitude. If he were a football coach Kidney would never have got this long to prove himself without having won anything, particularly considering how well our clubs were doing.

jacothelad

I certainly don't want him sacked. What I want is for someone to tackle him about the awful way he goes about things and I want to be sure that he gets a new job elsewhere when his contract is up. Ideally in charge of England.

OldRio

We are on the verge of dropping into the third tier and some still defend the coach.
If you are happy with our rapid descent down the rankings, fine, thats your choice but I find it shocking.
What the hell the IRFU are thinking is beyond me.
As for our journo's ? Well it took a foreign interviewer last weekend to ask our coach about his record. Irish rugby correspondants hang your heads in shame.t
Depressing times indeed.
Kidney for the love of God and the good of the Irish game please go.

bilston

It's questionable whether Scotland will beat S.A. so Im inclined to think we'll be okay seeding wise but to be honest I'm not that bothered. If we end up in the top 8 then great but if we don't and we get a group of say NZ and Australia then I'd at least hope it would focus minds and we'd start a root and branch rebuild of the national team as a matter of urgency

goreyguy

root and branch rebuild of the national team is needed already.

Serious problems in the way we develop players between 20 and 25.

totallegend

Tox56 wrote: »

This idea that we're going the way of football by wanting the coach gone has come up a few times, and I just can't understand it at all. If anything the length of Kidney's tenure (and the reluctance to sack him) shows how far away we are from a football attitude. If he were a football coach Kidney would never have got this long to prove himself without having won anything, particularly considering how well our clubs were doing.

It's an attempt to divert the discussion from the actual issues. It's the "ad hominem" defence; if you can't win the argument, attack the person making it.

goreyguy

Newstalk chat:

Eoin McDevitt's just opened Off The Ball tonight commenting on Ireland's recent record, how poor it was(Won 7 of the last 20, only 2 of those wins against anyone good)

Wood saying that there hasn't been much progress lately with the team, even says it tough to say there has been any progress lately. Said we cant replace BOD, need to find a level of performance and build from there, not sure what level that is. Blaming injuries, saying we were missing most of the teams leaders. Nothing critical of Kidney yet, cites us to be like england post WC 2003 and that we are trying to hold onto older players, says we have not blooded enough players to be ready to replace players.

Hickie saying we need to develop the next generation, says because of the new players we are struggling to get the same level of performance. Says this level of change is about as radical as we can expect from Ireland. Says we are rebuilding, game has changed a lot and thinks we are trying to play good rugby but we are under pressure to play. It's about eeking what we have apparently.

Thornley defending Kidney again, says lack of tries is a concern because we didn't look like scoring. Says we lack good ball carriers like Wood with O'Brien and Ferris out. Says depth being developed cites Bent and Zebo. Says fans are spoiled by success.

thomond2006

Thornley +1 idiot point then. Looks he is jumping on the bandwagon of "STFU fans".

Tox56

goreyguy wrote: »

Newstalk chat:

Eoin McDevitt's just opened Off The Ball tonight commenting on Ireland's recent record, how poor it was(Won 7 of the last 20, only 2 of those wins against anyone good)

Wood saying that there hasn't been much progress lately with the team, even says it tough to say there has been any progress lately. Said we cant replace BOD, need to find a level of performance and build from there, not sure what level that is. Blaming injuries, saying we were missing most of the teams leaders. Nothing critical of Kidney yet, cites us to be like england post WC 2003 and that we are trying to hold onto older players, says we have not blooded enough players to be ready to replace players.

Hickie saying we need to develop the next generation, says because of the new players we are struggling to get the same level of performance. Says this level of change is about as radical as we can expect from Ireland. Says we are rebuilding, game has changed a lot and thinks we are trying to play good rugby but we are under pressure to play. It's about eeking what we have apparently.

Thornley defending Kidney again, says lack of tries is a concern because we didn't look like scoring. Says we lack good ball carriers like Wood with O'Brien and Ferris out. Says depth being developed cites Bent and Zebo. Says fans are spoiled by success.

He also said the fans haven't been patient enough with the management. It would appear 3 years of mediocrity isn't long enough to judge Kidney

Fez101

One of the "Team Irelands" biggest failings over the past decade is being far too conservative when it comes to selecting the starting 15, we go down the tried and tested and safe, but perhaps past it route rather than giving the younger players a chance. Bold selections only tend to happen through chance (injury) rather than lets back this guy for the future. As a previous poster pointed out we do not develop players aged 20-25 particularly well at inernational level, something other nations do a whole lot better and something our provincal teams do well (yes I realise its somewhat easier to do this at the pro 12 level).