Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

Who are his detractors as opposed to his critics?

Originally Posted by jm08
Why would you want to leave out 2009 in the first place? Because he didn't lose a game that year including the Churchill Cup?

Well, we were discussing the last 2 years of his reign in which Ireland had won two games against top 8 sides, lost twice to Scotland and scraped by Italy by a point. the 2008 /9 side was basically that of EOS but hey - it's only fair to give Kidney the credit for the success so it's equally fair give him the brickbats for the failures. Unless of course you see what he has done with Ireland as successful =- which is apparently the case.

OK, lets have a look at those couple of matches that you mention.
Scotland 6Ns loss 2010: (20-23). A penalty was the difference for a draw.

Winning own Lineout: 52% (9 wins, 8 losses). (Pretty shocking - Kidney should be ashamed of himself)!
Scrum: 80% on own put-in. Not bad for us. Even won 2 of their put-ins. Fairplay to Healy, Best & Hayes.
Kicking from Tee: 66.7% - not too bad -BUT- Scotland conceeded 10 penalties and we only kicked 2 out of 4 of them. The rest were for a lineout and guess what - our lineout was fairly awful! Parks of course kicked 5 out of his 6 penalties.

The second loss to Scotland was a warm-up game for the world cup. No big deal.

---

I remember the Italy game really well. That was the game that Cian Healy gave away 5 scrum penalties. M Poitre was the ref, so what would you expect. O'gara saved the day with a drop goal in the 77th minute.




A lot of players some to have been very injury prone since the last
Lions tour - Kearney, Luke Fitz, POC, BOD, Horan, Ferris, Wally, Denis Leamy, Jerry Flannery, D'Arcy, Shane Horgan, Rory Best, Tomas O'Leary all have had their injury woes. Players like Luke Fitz has hardly played for Ireland in the last 4 years.

All sides have injuries. They cope with them by using all the resources at their fingertips. Kidney fails to cope because he ignores better performing players, uses his old mates at every opportunity and plays some team members when they are injured - to their disservice.

Who are these better performing players who haven't been injured at the same time? Even 20 years olds were being pulled from the U20s world cup to try and cover some of the injuries.

You need a little bit of experience as well.

Yes you do. Unless apparently you are Conor Murray, POM, Zebo and now Kilcoyne unless there is an injury crisis. What do those players have in common?
Initially Conor Murray was paired with Ronan O'Gara who he always seemed to play well with. The ROG bosses his SHs was probably a help to him in his early career and probably misses it now from Sexton.

POM was always put in with an experienced backrow.

Zebo was put outside Earls who is used to playing with at club level for his first cap. Just as well he had been capped - it would have been very daunting for him to get his first cap in a position he is unfamiliar with. He is obviously a very confident young fella.

Kilcoyne has really put his hand up at club level and deserves and looks to be a very promising young prop. At least he won't be rushed through like Cian Healy was.


Remind me where all the other great options were - Dec Fitzpatrick on the physio's table - he has played about 20 games for Ulster in his entire career. He is always injured or Andress not even with a club or Mike Ross behind CJ VdeLinde and Stan for Leinster.

Declan Fitzpatrick has played 66 games for Ulster, in many of which he has played very well indeed. Andress has been with Harlequins, Exeter and now is with Worcester and has started every game for them this season. Kidney seemingly just loves Munster props - even those who are to propping what Graham Norton is to cage Fighting - like Buckley and Archer. If he'd bothered his orifice to watch a game with his red tinted specs off perhaps he might have seen things differently. What person in his right mind sees Stephen Archer as a candidate for Ireland as a tight head? Answer. None. Yet there he is. Get out of here.

Declan Fitzpatrick has played 2769 minutes of pro rugby for Ulster over 8 seasons. That equates to and average of 4.32 (80 min) games per season.

Its not getting any better - so far he has played 106 minutes this season and he is injured again!

John Andress is much better than Fitzpatrick. Over 6 seasons (seems to have missed the 07/08 season completely) he has played 3250 minutes of rougby which equates to an average of 6.7 games per season. In fairness to him he is doing very well this year (9 starts for Worcester) having played as much this season already as he has done in all of last season. We should wait with bated breath to see how this one will go!


A lot of that was down to Sexton having problems converting penalties into points with his boot.

How many games were won when O'Gara started?

5/11 + 1 draw (He has started 11/33 games for Ireland since Sexton was capped).

How many points did he miss with his boot? Don't know. I know his (O'Garas) kicking percentages for the world cup were in the 80s percentages.


Did he not play alongside Darran Cave against the Ba-Baas just before they flew out and was he not keeping himself fit in Belfast before he went? Was it the start, middle or end of his beach holiday?

Totally irrelevant. If he wanted him to take part he should have taken him along. You blathered on earlier about how important it is that Munster players practice together so that they play well together. Was it not important for Wallace to be there to do so? If not, why not?
I'd be all on for him going out, as I'm sure Kidney wanted to bring him, but the reason he did not go (like Ian Madigan) was because of budgetary restrictions by the IRFU.

Matt Williams would be the man for the charisma job ! get him at munster then.
Rob Penney has loads of charisma

Like I posted, I'm happy to await the decision of informed people and I have no doubt that Kidney will behave with dignity, unlike his detractors.

@jaco

@jaco and some others
Please READ

jm08

desertcircus wrote: »

jm08 is right. Of course our two losses to Scotland are the fault of Sexton's kicking percentages. Never mind the fact that he missed a grand total of three penalties in those two losses. Or that at least one of them was from long range. Or that in the 10-6 loss, a 100% conversion rate would still have seen us lose. Or that we scored a grand total of two tries in those two games against a team we'd previously beaten every year since at least 2004. It's all down to Sexton's place kicking.

Looking up the stats, I think the lineout was more of the problem in the Scotland game (6Ns). Really poor. It was so poor, Ireland should have been going for the posts rather than the line.

I looked up the match commentary for the match summary on espn and since you are all mad into stats here, I think I'll share this one with you:

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/94956.html

The BBC has just revealed that Jonathan Sexton has a 36% kicking success ratio - Ronan O'Gara's in 100% by the by. That is just unacceptable at this level, for all his excellent running abilities, he's got to work on that if he wants to keep that 10 jersey, or he'll find himself in a James Hook situation, and I don't think he's big enough to play centre...

Read the full commentary and you will see what was going wrong.

goreyguy

I cant believe anyone actually believes some of that stuff.. now saying murray was good because of ROG and now not so good because of Sexton. Hilarious.

jm08

goreyguy wrote: »

I cant believe anyone actually believes some of that stuff.. now saying murray was good because of ROG and now not so good because of Sexton. Hilarious.

I didn't say he was good or bad. I said that ROG bosses his SHs (tells them what to do). Since Murray is a very young and inexperienced player that probably helped him. Sexton & Murray have to develop their own relationship that suits them. Give them a few more games together.

leonard7

is team announcement today?

thomond2006

leonard7 wrote: »

is team announcement today?

yes

dub_skav

jm08, I'll have to call you on the Scotland loss.
Yes, our lineout was a shambles. So bad in fact that Leo Cullen came out after half time in just a tracksuit top to warm up alone, obviously fully expecting to be brought on to tidy up the lineout.

He warmed up for 35 minutes. That was not a fault of the players

goreyguy

Independent suggesting this team:

Hurley, Gilroy, Cave, Marshall, McFadden, Jackson, Murray/Reddan; Kilcoyne, Cronin, Ross; O'Callaghan, Tuohy; Henderson, Muldoon, Heaslip

Foxtrol

goreyguy wrote: »

Independent suggesting this team:

Hurley, Gilroy, Cave, Marshall, McFadden, Jackson, Murray/Reddan; Kilcoyne, Cronin, Ross; O'Callaghan, Tuohy; Henderson, Muldoon, Heaslip

That team isnt too bad.

My issues: Hurley shouldnt be near the team, would have liked to see McFadden get a chance at 12 rather than the wing but would be happy with Marshall, scrum half shouldnt involve Murray, Ross doesnt need to be flogged and started.

totallegend

leonard7 wrote: »

is team announcement today?

Pick up a copy of today's Times; Thornley is "speculating" on a "possible" Ireland selection

Hurley, McFadden, Cave, Luke Marshall, Gilroy, Jackson. Reddan/Murray
Kilcoyne, Cronin, Bent, DOC, Tuohy, Henderson, Henry, Heaslip

Reps: Strauss, Healy, Ross, McLaughlin, O'Mahony, Murray/Paul Marshall, Sexton, Zebo.

Hurley; a wasted jersey, no other way to describe it.
Three-quarters; grand
Jackson; great
SH; if I read Thornley right, if Reddan is fit, Marshall won't be named in the squad. I'll reserve my fury until the actual announcement.
Front-row; grand, looking forward to seeing Kilcoyne and Bent (albeit against weak opposition)
Second-row; grand
Back-row; grand

Bench; Lunacy. Utter lunacy.

How much more punishment does Cian Healy have to take? If, hypothetically, Kilcoyne can't hack it and has to be hauled off, or picks up an injury, we have to throw a not-fully-fit Healy back into the fray, when we have a very, very capable replacement in Tom Court sitting around scratching his arse. Ditto Ross; why not give someone else a shot?

And Kevin McLaughlin as second-row cover? Why bother calling Toner up? Maybe the logic is that Henderson will cover second-row, but then you're relying on a young guy to make the step up to an 80-minute match at almost-international level. Kidney's love-affair with blindside flankers is a thing of beauty alright.

I hope Sexton doesn't get his arse off the bench all night and Jackson gets a proper go, but I'd like to see Zebo replacing Hurley as early as possible.

goreyguy

goreyguy wrote: »

Independent suggesting this team:

Hurley, Gilroy, Cave, Marshall, McFadden, Jackson, Murray/Reddan; Kilcoyne, Cronin, Ross; O'Callaghan, Tuohy; Henderson, Muldoon, Heaslip

so close to being a team I'd love to see!

Give Zebo that 15 jersey again.
Marshall the bench spot I hope (P.Marshall)?
Bent a start with Ross to sub.
Toner on the bench?
Muldoon at 7 is a bit odd. Wouldn't this be a good chance to give POM another showing there? Not a test game, chance to get more gametime at openside and prove us all wrong?

I think I'd even like Henderson in the second row, Muldoon at 6, POM at 7 and Tuohy as an impact sub as another option.

Bench is important in this game, don't want to flog any of the guys that might make next weekend's side.

goreyguy

Ridiculous if Ross plays at all. Hurley shouldn't even be in the squad.

bilston

I guess the plan is to play as few of last weeks team as possible. Heaslip as captain is fair enough but I don't see the point in involving Ross or Murray.

One player I'd like to see play again is Zebo. He did well last week and certainly has the attributes for FB but the one thing you worry about is his positioning and that's only because he's never really played there before so give him as much gametime as possible. He's a young lad so can handle it, and what's more as a FB it's not as if he is in the coal face of the game.

It's that unpredictable a selection that if Thornley might be out by one or two but we'll find out soon enough, but generally this looks like it could be quite an exciting selection.

thomond2006

Putting Hurley in for Zebo is pointless, Zebo needs as much as time as possible in the 15 jersey. If Muldoon starts it's bizarre. Equally DOC starting is pointless.

Like a previous poster I would be most pissed about Healy, no need to have him in the squad for a game like this.

Huge game for Jackson. 10-14 looks exciting.

Lelantos

thomond2006 wrote: »

Putting Hurley in for Zebo is pointless, Zebo needs as much as time as possible in the 15 jersey. If Muldoon starts it's bizarre. Equally DOC starting is pointless.

Like a previous poster I would be most pissed about Healy, no need to have him in the squad for a game like this.

Huge game for Jackson. 10-14 looks exciting.

I can't see why Zebo needs as much time as possible at 15. He's ok at it, but would be 4th choice for Ireland imo. He's a winger, let him on the wing, we have enough square pegs in round holes as it is.

Foxtrol

Lelantos wrote: »

I can't see why Zebo needs as much time as possible at 15. He's ok at it, but would be 4th choice for Ireland imo. He's a winger, let him on the wing, we have enough square pegs in round holes as it is.

Playing Zebo at 15 is better than playing Hurley. Zebo will probably start there against the Argies so giving him more experience could be helpful. If not Zebo then throw Henshaw in there.

Lelantos

Lelantos wrote: »

I can't see why Zebo needs as much time as possible at 15. He's ok at it, but would be 4th choice for Ireland imo. He's a winger, let him on the wing, we have enough square pegs in round holes as it is.

He's going to have to play 15 against the Argentinians in what might well be a H2H World Cup qualifier.

Seph503

EDIT: NVM answered above.

dregin

Would really like to see Paul Marshall getting 60 minutes in this. Redden's getting on and Murray really hasn't proven himself as a worthy replacement at international level.

irishbucsfan

The team is pretty good. One of the front row from Saturday was always going to play, as they should, so Ross is probably the best choice of the 3.

I think it's pretty clear Cave doesn't have a real chance of starting against Argentina from this team. Hopefully he plays really well and forces himself into consideration.

Hurley is really the only other full back around currently. I'd prefer to have seen Zebo back there again, but maybe they're worried about him picking up a knock due to our lack of options there. He's a good player, I'd expect him to do his bit... Not much long term value out of it though.

Important that we start Murray of Reddan so I'm happy with that, it shows Jackson actually has a chance of playing next week if he performs. Hopefully Sexton and Marshall are on the bench?

DOC and Tuohy are a very good pairing. Looking forward to seeing them together. We really needed experience on Saturday so DOC could put pressure on Ryan for the Argentina game with a good performance imo. Tuohy has a chance to show he's over his little mini dip in form.

JF100

The IRFU App is down...
So is the mood of their team's supporters!
What time is kick-off on Sat(?) .. & is it televised?

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Hurley is really the only other full back around currently. I'd prefer to have seen Zebo back there again, but maybe they're worried about him picking up a knock due to our lack of options there. He's a good player, I'd expect him to do his bit... Not much long term value out of it though.

He's not though.

Better solutions:
1) Play Zebo; the guy is 22, he can manage three games in three weeks.
2) Play any one of Dave Kearney, Craig Gilroy, Robbie Henshaw or Felix Jones.
3) Play Madigan or Keatley; they can double up as out-half cover and Sexton gets a rest.

If Hurley has paid his dues and is getting the nod on the basis of being a 'good servant' to Munster, then fair enough. If Kidney thinks he's the best option, then fair enough. But he is not the only option.

JustinDee

JF100 wrote: »

The IRFU App is down...
So is the mood of their team's supporters!
What time is kick-off on Sat(?) .. & is it televised?

App is working fine as is mobile site.
Kick-off is 5.30, and game will also be shown on RTE Two.

Quint2010

Can't believe Mike Ross is going to start this match. Nor Murray. Nor DOC.

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

He's not though.

Better solutions:
1) Play Zebo; the guy is 22, he can manage three games in three weeks.
2) Play any one of Dave Kearney, Craig Gilroy, Robbie Henshaw or Felix Jones.
3) Play Madigan or Keatley; they can double up as out-half cover and Sexton gets a rest.

If Hurley has paid his dues and is getting the nod on the basis of being a 'good servant' to Munster, then fair enough. If Kidney thinks he's the best option, then fair enough. But he is not the only option.

Zebo can play three games sure, but if he gets injured we'd be stuck again. At his age he is an injury risk.

There are good reasons why all of the guys you've mentioned aren't involved. They may be options but most of them are far less desirable I'd have liked to see Earls or Gilroy but Gilroys on the wing and Earls is obviously now going to play 13 next week.

totallegend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There are good reasons why all of the guys you've mentioned aren't involved. They may be options but most of them are far less more desirable than Hurley. I'd have liked to see Earls or Gilroy but Gilroys on the wing and Earls is obviously now going to play 13 next week.

FYP.

There are reasons why each of the guys I mentioned should not be involved, sure. There is no good why reason why Hurley should be involved.

Otacon

JF100 wrote: »

What time is kick-off on Sat(?) .. & is it televised?

JustinDee wrote: »

Kick-off is 5.30, and game will also be shown on RTE Two.

It's also on BBC Two for us living across the Irish Sea.

irishbucsfan

totallegend wrote: »

FYP.

There are reasons why each of the guys I mentioned should not be involved, sure. There is no good why reason why Hurley should be involved.

There is NO good reason?

The guy is an actual 15 unlike any of the other (fit) players you have mentioned.

The guy is entering the prime of his career, unlike any of the players you've mentioned.

The guy has played 15 very well this season, unlike the vast majority of the players you've mentioned.

He is not going to be a superstar and he'd be well down the list when everyone is fit. But for a one-off A game where the coaches have a lot of work going on across the team he's far better than a semi-fit injury risk or a player who is uncomfortable at 15 and never going to be an option there again.

The only people I'd prefer ahead of him currently are Earls, Gilroy, Zero and Morris. Theres an explanation for all of them, although I completely disagree with disregarding the latter.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There is NO good reason?

The guy is an actual 15 unlike any of the other (fit) players you have mentioned.

The guy is entering the prime of his career, unlike any of the players you've mentioned.

The guy has played 15 very well this season, unlike the vast majority of the players you've mentioned.

He is not going to be a superstar and he'd be well down the list when everyone is fit. But for a one-off A game where the coaches have a lot of work going on across the team he's far better than a semi-fit injury risk or a player who is uncomfortable at 15 and never going to be an option there again.

The only people I'd prefer ahead of him currently are Earls, Gilroy, Zero and Morris. Theres an explanation for all of them, although I completely disagree with disregarding the latter.

You would have Morris ahead of D Kearney? Hasn't he only played 2 or 3 games this season at 15?