Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

totallegend

God bless Gerry Thornley's optimism. Apparently, Kilcoyne's selection today means "no position in Irish rugby looks healthier in the long term than loosehead prop".

I'm sorry now but WTF? A man who has six competitive starts in his entire career is the long-term cover we need for Healy? F**king ridiculous.

Before the Munster guys line up to give me a kicking, I'm not having a go at Kilcoyne, just the ludicrous journalism that Thornley is churning out these days.

Edit: Listen to this one; "the selection of Mike Ross... suggests the management were less than thrilled with his performance last week when he was called ashore after conceding a costly couple of penalties". The reason he conceded those penalties was because he was wrecked after going up against CJ van der Linde and the Boks coaches had the brains and general cop on to send on van der Merwe. So, your TH prop is physically exhausted after scrummaging for 70 minutes against two top class props, so rather than give him a rest before going up against the PUMAS, Kidney's solution is to flog him again this weekend?

If Thornley is really getting this info direct from Kidney, as all the indications would be, then Kidney has lost the plot completely. I just can't fathom it.

Banbridgeman2

McGrath is a better loose head than Kilcoyne anyway, so is Mcallister

Fishooks12

Banbridgeman2 wrote: »

McGrath is a better loose head than Kilcoyne anyway, so is Mcallister

If you don't mind me asking, what the hell are you basing this on? Other than a childish dislike for Munster players? Any facts to back this up? Anecdotes? Even an opinion as to why they're better other than just stating it?

Say nothing of the fact that Kilcoyne has proved himself at a higher level than either of these players.


Side note: Don't agree for a second with what Thornley is saying, Kilcoyne still has a long way to go before anyone can start talking about a long term replacement for Healy. Not to mention that they're roughly the same age

danthefan

totallegend wrote: »

If Thornley is really getting this info direct from Kidney, as all the indications would be, then Kidney has lost the plot completely. I just can't fathom it.

It's beyond belief isn't it? We suffered with Buckley for years, the press never called the fact he was awful. When Hayes was patently not able for international rugby anymore nobody in the media even raised the question for fear of looking like they're having a go at Hayes. I've the utmost of respect for Hayes but from 2009 onwards he got demolished a number of times for Ireland, he just was not up to it anymore, just purely an issue of age and miles on the clock. Now we've our best TH scrummager in over a decade and Thornley is having a thinly veiled go at him.

Fishooks - McAllister in particular has played a hell of a lot more rugby than Kilcoyne and has shown he's a good player, it's not a stretch by any means to say he's better than Kilcoyne. So yeah you can draw that conclusion not by anecdotes or whatever but by simply watching rugby. If he was fit then by rights he'd be in the squad ahead of Kilcoyne I'd imagine.

Fishooks12

danthefan wrote: »

It's beyond belief isn't it? We suffered with Buckley for years, the press never called the fact he was awful. When Hayes was patently not able for international rugby anymore nobody in the media even raised the question for fear of looking like they're having a go at Hayes. I've the utmost of respect for Hayes but from 2009 onwards he got demolished a number of times for Ireland, he just was not up to it anymore, just purely an issue of age and miles on the clock. Now we've our best TH scrummager in over a decade and Thornley is having a thinly veiled go at him.

Fishooks - McAllister in particular has played a hell of a lot more rugby than Kilcoyne and has shown he's a good player, it's not a stretch by any means to say he's better than Kilcoyne. So yeah you can draw that conclusion not by anecdotes or whatever but by simply watching rugby. If he was fit then by rights he'd be in the squad ahead of Kilcoyne I'd imagine.

tbh I don't think there is much between those two, although Kilcoyne is fit right now and playing HC rugby. The McGrath suggestion is ludicrous though. I was more raising the point because BBM feels the need to have a vague pop at a Munster player in everyone of his posts without backing it up

irishbucsfan

The McGrath suggestion is ludicrous? He's played twice as much senior rugby as Kilcoyne and never once looked as shakey in the scrums. McGrath is the better player from what I've seen of both of them.

Tox56

McGrath looks a better scrummager, but Kilcoyne looks far more dynamic around the field though.

Fishooks12

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The McGrath suggestion is ludicrous? He's played twice as much senior rugby as Kilcoyne and never once looked as shakey in the scrums. McGrath is the better player from what I've seen of both of them.

Since Kilcoyne shored up his scrummaging he's looked a better player in my eyes.

"Ludicrous" was descending into hyperbole. If any other poster had raised it I wouldn't have minded. But giving the constant flow of anti Munster sentiment flowing from a keyboard in Down, I took exception.

goreyguy

I would say the future of LH looks good, Healy is young.

Then there is McAllister in Ulster, Kilcoyne in Munster, Buckley in Connacht and McGrath in Leinster.

A lot of young talent there.

danthefan

goreyguy wrote: »

I would say the future of LH looks good, Healy is young.

Then there is McAllister in Ulster, Kilcoyne in Munster, Buckley in Connacht and McGrath in Leinster.

A lot of young talent there.

Healy is streets ahead of the rest, can't see him being displaced in the short or medium term anyway.

Fishooks12

danthefan wrote: »

Healy is streets ahead of the rest, can't see him being displaced in the short or medium term anyway.

That's the thing. Healy is so good, and so young, that a lot of these guys might not see the number 1 jersey for Ireland for years to come

goreyguy

Obviously they are all off Healy but at least we have plenty of talent there, same can't be said for other positions.

Sandwlch

totallegend wrote: »

I'm not having a go at Kilcoyne, just the ludicrous journalism that Thornley is churning out these days.
QUOTE]

Is it not even worse than that? It isnt just Thornley. Its Irish rugby journalism (TV, radio, print) that almost seems incapable of criticising players or coaches. It was not like this in the past, but they seem to have gone back to the type of past where one would never even print known facts on the lives of politicians or high profile people out of some sort of respect. Even when they do level a little criticism, it is couched in a kind of 'pressure will mount on the DK and the IRFU if etc'. In the past players were amateurs and may have deserved some measure of 'polite' criticism. But these days, handsomely paid pros should be subject to the full scrutiny and opinion. Even if it gets a little heated at times and some of the opinions are based on flimsy evidence, it seems Boards.ie is the only place people are willing to call it as they see it. Thornley is just the shining example of the malaise. And in spades.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The McGrath suggestion is ludicrous? He's played twice as much senior rugby as Kilcoyne and never once looked as shakey in the scrums. McGrath is the better player from what I've seen of both of them.

I'd agree with this. McGrath is behind 2 world class scrummagers and so hasn't had the exposure that Kilcoyne has had. But he has twice the number of caps and is a year younger than Kilcoyne. He's always looked very solid at scrum time and is every bit as good as Kilcoyne in the loose.

Kilcoyne has looked reasonably good, but how much has he really been tested at Munster so far? I'm sorry to be saying this (sincerely, as I argued against the idea for so long) but it is another example of a Munster player getting international exposure on the back of very little. Murray called up to a RWC squad (and QF) after less than a dozen games and now Kilcoyne jumping ahead of Court (107 caps for Ulster & 29 for Ireland) after the same level of exposure. While the likes of Tuohy and Cave barely feature at all despite being regular members of an Ulster squad that has been showing massive promise up to this season and is easily the best province on current form. Cave has 52 caps. Tuohy has 74. It is getting harder and harder to ignore.

Fishooks12

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd agree with this. McGrath is behind 2 world class scrummagers and so hasn't had the exposure that Kilcoyne has had. But he has twice the number of caps and is a year younger than Kilcoyne. He's always looked very solid at scrum time and is every bit as good as Kilcoyne in the loose.

Kilcoyne has looked reasonably good, but how much has he really been tested at Munster so far? I'm sorry to be saying this (sincerely, as I argued against the idea for so long) but it is another example of a Munster player getting international exposure on the back of very little. Murray called up to a RWC squad (and QF) after less than a dozen games and now Kilcoyne jumping ahead of Court (107 caps for Ulster & 29 for Ireland) after the same level of exposure. While the likes of Tuohy and Cave barely feature at all despite being regular members of an Ulster squad that has been showing massive promise up to this season and is easily the best province on current form. Cave has 52 caps. Tuohy has 74. It is getting harder and harder to ignore.

Hopefully our new coach won't

Tom Court has been very hard done by. Seems Kidney is trying to make him a scapegoat for the England game last year

molloyjh

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Hopefully our new coach won't

Tom Court has been very hard done by. Seems Kidney is trying to make him a scapegoat for the England game last year

Possibly. If so that really puts paid to this idea of him being a great man manager. You don't leave players hang out to dry like that. I've a lot of time for Court, and I think most people realised after that game that it wasn't his fault at all. If he was to stay with the Irish squad what would Ulsters LH position be like for tomorrow though?

It really annoys me posting things like that as I've had heated debates with people in the past claiming absolutely no Munster bias in the Ireland selections. But when faced with those examples I really have nothing to come back with. Sadly I think this sort of thing just adds fuel to the provincial fire.

Anyway we're only a few hours from kick-off so time to put all that to one side and hopefully we can see a few of those younger/fringe players making a strong statement today.

Fishooks12

molloyjh wrote: »

Possibly. If so that really puts paid to this idea of him being a great man manager. You don't leave players hang out to dry like that. I've a lot of time for Court, and I think most people realised after that game that it wasn't his fault at all. If he was to stay with the Irish squad what would Ulsters LH position be like for tomorrow though?

It really annoys me posting things like that as I've had heated debates with people in the past claiming absolutely no Munster bias in the Ireland selections. But when faced with those examples I really have nothing to come back with. Sadly I think this sort of thing just adds fuel to the provincial fire.

Anyway we're only a few hours from kick-off so time to put all that to one side and hopefully we can see a few of those younger/fringe players making a strong statement today.

There clearly is. And it's not exactly a good thing for Munster fans either. Just overexposes players (Murray last year) and lends some fans of other provinces to ridiculous hyperbole about Munster players ability, or apparent lack thereof

shuffol

Hope people dont descend into having a pop at Kilcoyne who's a talented young player but his rapid promotion to 2nd choice loosehead makes me feel very uneasy, to say he's proved himself at HEC level is nonsense. This season he's clearly struggled against Ross, did well initially against Racing who in fairness didint look interested for the first half hour and then had a good day against Edinburgh who are a nothing side scrummaging wise. How this qualifies him to start on the bench against S.A. behind someody struggling for fitness I dont know, I cringed when I heard people justifying his inclusion based on his ball carrying, when have we heard that before? had Healy not recovered from his knock early in the 2nd half we could very well have had an embarrassing situation on our hands. Tom Courts treatment in all this is shoddy to say the least.

And just a word on Denis Buckley, there's obviously little between himself and Kilcoyne but last season Irelands 3rd choice LH was Wilkinson, Buckley has done excellently this season to establish himself ahead of him and I think this deserves recognition. Kilcoyne has established himself ahead of Marcus Horan and profited from an injury to Du Preez. I hope he does well today but irregardless Court should be benching against Argentina.

jamiedav2011

shuffol wrote: »

Hope people dont descend into having a pop at Kilcoyne who's a talented young player but his rapid promotion to 2nd choice loosehead makes me feel very uneasy, to say he's proved himself at HEC level is nonsense. This season he's clearly struggled against Ross, did well initially against Racing who in fairness didint look interested for the first half hour and then had a good day against Edinburgh who are a nothing side scrummaging wise. How this qualifies him to start on the bench against S.A. behind someody struggling for fitness I dont know, I cringed when I heard people justifying his inclusion based on his ball carrying, when have we heard that before? had Healy not recovered from his knock early in the 2nd half we could very well have had an embarrassing situation on our hands. Tom Courts treatment in all this is shoddy to say the least.

And just a word on Denis Buckley, there's obviously little between himself and Kilcoyne but last season Irelands 3rd choice LH was Wilkinson, Buckley has done excellently this season to establish himself ahead of him and I think this deserves recognition. Kilcoyne has established himself ahead of Marcus Horan and profited from an injury to Du Preez. I hope he does well today but irregardless Court should be benching against Argentina.

This is the main point in all of this I think. Choosing Kilcoyne is obviously good from a forward thinking point of view, but if I were Court I would tell Kidney where to go.

The general public seem to think Court is some sort of joker based upon his performances at TH, when he's actually our second best LH by quite a bit.

jacothelad

molloyjh wrote: »

Possibly. If so that really puts paid to this idea of him being a great man manager. You don't leave players hang out to dry like that. I've a lot of time for Court, and I think most people realised after that game that it wasn't his fault at all. If he was to stay with the Irish squad what would Ulsters LH position be like for tomorrow though?

It really annoys me posting things like that as I've had heated debates with people in the past claiming absolutely no Munster bias in the Ireland selections. But when faced with those examples I really have nothing to come back with. Sadly I think this sort of thing just adds fuel to the provincial fire.

Anyway we're only a few hours from kick-off so time to put all that to one side and hopefully we can see a few of those younger/fringe players making a strong statement today.

If you go back to pre 2009 days when Munster had 8 or 9 or more players in the side, there was no claim of bias because they were clearly there as the best players by and large. It's when mediocre or unproven or downright poor Munster players get rocketed in ahead of other, more long serving and equally deserving or palpably better players that it's as plain as the nose on your face. Even the tragically comic use of poor Archer and Smal bumming him up as a future star is just awful. I mean, what do these guys see when Stephen is shown his fundamental orifice and deckchairs in every scrum? Are they actually seeing Archer winning scrum after scrum? Most of us would have no problem probably to see the likes of JJH involved as he is obviously made of the right stuff but using the admittedly basically adequate Hurley for example over Noddy is even more bizarre. The persistence with his old soldier mates is beyond a joke. Remember Horan in the RWC warm up games. MOD. Hayes. Buckley. et al. Time waits for no man but Deccie does his best to keep his old pals in the team and their young protégés in it as well.

jm08

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd agree with this. McGrath is behind 2 world class scrummagers and so hasn't had the exposure that Kilcoyne has had. But he has twice the number of caps and is a year younger than Kilcoyne. He's always looked very solid at scrum time and is every bit as good as Kilcoyne in the loose.

McGrath has a total of 73 mins of rugby this season. 1 start (51 mins against Dragons, 19 mins against Scarlets, 3 mins against Ospreys).

Most of his caps are 10 min sub. His starts have been against the poorest of the scrummaging teams (like Scarlets, Dragons).

Kilcoyne has looked reasonably good, but how much has he really been tested at Munster so far? I'm sorry to be saying this (sincerely, as I argued against the idea for so long) but it is another example of a Munster player getting international exposure on the back of very little. Murray called up to a RWC squad (and QF) after less than a dozen games and now Kilcoyne jumping ahead of Court (107 caps for Ulster & 29 for Ireland) after the same level of exposure. While the likes of Tuohy and Cave barely feature at all despite being regular members of an Ulster squad that has been showing massive promise up to this season and is easily the best province on current form. Cave has 52 caps. Tuohy has 74. It is getting harder and harder to ignore.

He has been tested a lot more than McGrath. He was the starting loosehead for Munster A in the defeat of Ulster Ravens (P McAllister was loosehead) in the QF in Ravenhill and against Leinster in the semi in the P&I Cup.

This season with Munster he has played 6 Rabo games (3 starts against Ulster, Leinster & Zebre) playing around 60 mins.

He started 2 Heineken Cup games playing 73 mins against Racing and 79 mins against Edinburgh.

I think Court & Fitzpatrick are needed by Ulster to play Zebre as their backup propping situation is not good with McAlister injured. They are starting Afoa (probably because Fitzpatrick has played so little this season).

Cave has missed out a lot because he missed a season through injury and got injured just before the 6Ns last year when he could have been a starter against Wales as BOD & Earls were not available and Ferg McFadden had to fill in.

As for Touhy - he is a horses for courses player who needs to be with a very good lineout operator like Muller, POC or Cullen.

shuffol

I've few problems with Kilcoyne in the squad and for him to start today is logical, but benching against S.A. was an accident waiting to happen.

jm08

jacothelad wrote: »

Most of us would have no problem probably to see the likes of JJH involved as he is obviously made of the right stuff but using the admittedly basically adequate Hurley for example over Noddy is even more bizarre. The persistence with his old soldier mates is beyond a joke. Remember Horan in the RWC warm up games. MOD. Hayes. Buckley. et al. Time waits for no man but Deccie does his best to keep his old pals in the team and their young protégés in it as well.

Are you saying that you'd have been happy if JJ was started ahead of Paddy Jackson against Fiji :eek:

Noddy is coming back from a long injury and with a reputation for getting broken easily I'm quite happy he isn't involved against Fiji.

ed7890

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd agree with this. McGrath is behind 2 world class scrummagers and so hasn't had the exposure that Kilcoyne has had. But he has twice the number of caps and is a year younger than Kilcoyne. He's always looked very solid at scrum time and is every bit as good as Kilcoyne in the loose.

Kilcoyne has looked reasonably good, but how much has he really been tested at Munster so far? I'm sorry to be saying this (sincerely, as I argued against the idea for so long) but it is another example of a Munster player getting international exposure on the back of very little. Murray called up to a RWC squad (and QF) after less than a dozen games and now Kilcoyne jumping ahead of Court (107 caps for Ulster & 29 for Ireland) after the same level of exposure. While the likes of Tuohy and Cave barely feature at all despite being regular members of an Ulster squad that has been showing massive promise up to this season and is easily the best province on current form. Cave has 52 caps. Tuohy has 74. It is getting harder and harder to ignore.

And Marshall, Jackson and Henderson today? Bias?

goreyguy

Today isn't even a capped game.

How anyone can say their is an Ulster bias is ludicrous

molloyjh

ed7890 wrote: »

And Marshall, Jackson and Henderson today? Bias?

It's an uncapped and meaningless game.

ed7890

molloyjh wrote: »

It's an uncapped and meaningless game.

So whats the big deal over giving Kilcoyne a start?

molloyjh

ed7890 wrote: »

So whats the big deal over giving Kilcoyne a start?

We weren't talking about todays game. It was a general point.

jm08

molloyjh wrote: »

We weren't talking about todays game. It was a general point.

Well then, what did you think of Healy jumping Court in the Ireland pecking order?

Lelantos

jm08 wrote: »

Well then, what did you think of Healy jumping Court in the Ireland pecking order?

It's a fckin disgrace!