Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

totallegend

Easy scapegoats for the failure of the national team in recent years:

jacothelad wrote: »

B.J. Botha,
Wian Du Preez
Henke Van Der Merwe
C.J. Van Der Linde
Ollie La Roux
Freddie Puciarrello
Nathan White
Rocky Elsom
Brad Thorn
Felipe Contepomi
Trevor Halstead
Rua Tipoki
Liefimi Mafi.
Casey Laulala
John Afoa
JeanDevilliers
Johan Muller
Ruan Pienaar
Pedrie Wannenberg
The Plank

Funny how when Ireland were winning, Johnny Foreigner wasn't an issue but now that we're appallingly bad, it's all down to those dastardly immigrants taking our jobs.

jm08

totallegend wrote: »

Easy scapegoats for the failure of the national team in recent years:

Funny how when Ireland were winning, Johnny Foreigner wasn't an issue but now that we're appallingly bad, it's all down to those dastardly immigrants taking our jobs.

Sickening really.

The propping situation has been difficult for the national team. About a third of those 'johnny foreigners' listed are props.

Fireball07

My team for Argentina:

1. Healy
2. Strauss
3. Ross
4. DOC
5. McCarthy
6. POM/Henderson (Henderson was pretty good tonight, and I'd like to see him get a good runout anyway...bet he could have scored that try tonight himself, really unselfish to pass to Marshall)
7. Henry
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Gilroy
12. Marshall (I just think he'll get over the gainline more, and provide more momentum
13. Earls
14. Bowe
15. Zebo (Ideally, it'd be Earls at 15, Cave 13, Zebo 11...but Zebo showed up well enough at 15 the last day)

16. Cronin
17. Kilcoyne
18. Bent
19. Ryan/Tuohy
20. POM/Henderson
21. Marshall
22. Jackson
23. Cave (Because Earls can cover basically everywhere in the backline, I'd choose Cave...if Marshall unluckily gets injured we could move Sexton there)

Almaviva

jacothelad wrote: »

B.J. Botha,
Wian Du Preez
Henke Van Der Merwe
C.J. Van Der Linde
Ollie La Roux
Freddie Puciarrello
Nathan White
Rocky Elsom
Brad Thorn
Felipe Contepomi
Trevor Halstead
Rua Tipoki
Liefimi Mafi.
Casey Laulala
John Afoa
JeanDevilliers
Johan Muller
Ruan Pienaar
Pedrie Wannenberg
The Plank
Eddie Hekenui

Amended

jacothelad

totallegend wrote: »

Easy scapegoats for the failure of the national team in recent years:

Funny how when Ireland were winning, Johnny Foreigner wasn't an issue but now that we're appallingly bad, it's all down to those dastardly immigrants taking our jobs.

Did you actually read what I said - all be it succinctly. 'Some' - but not all of the reasons - of which there are a few. No matter what way we look at it, it's not all down to Kidney. A lot is, in my view but we shouldn't delude ourselves that having all these great players doesn't hold back the development of IQ ones. If you want a real comparison of where it can go wrong when you go really down this road, look at the English soccer side and the Premiership. Teams like Arsenal and Chelsea have often put out teams without an English player. It is also no coincidence the Scotland, NI, ROI and Wales soccer teams have all suffered for the same reason. Historically, they all would have had teams full of players from the top sides in England. Fortunately we have a limit. I don't want that limit reduced further in the short term as the success of the Provinces is dependent on this at the moment.

"Some of the reasons for the apparent under performance of the Irish national side. Not all but a contributory factor"

Do you need any more clarification? BTW, one championship since 1985 with great players available isn't success in my book. Many great wins since 2000 but too many near misses to be really called success.

.ak

jacothelad wrote: »

Did you actually read what I said...

I can't speak for TL but I think he was agreeing with you and just observing how some of the press/media/fans feel about it.

danthefan

Interesting point - Ireland have never beaten a top 8 side with Murray starting.

Next weekend we play a top 8 side with a huge amount at stake...

.ak

danthefan wrote: »

Interesting point - Ireland have never beaten a top 8 side with Murray starting.

Next weekend we play a top 8 side with a huge amount at stake...

I might not be Murray's biggest fan, but that's hardly fair. How many of those games did BOD start? You could use the same stat against him and I don't think it'd be fair. It's a 15 man game.

The stats revolving around the current coaching ticket and their win/loss ratio against the top 8 are far more telling.

CatFromHue

danthefan wrote: »

Interesting point - Ireland have never beaten a top 8 side with Murray starting.

Next weekend we play a top 8 side with a huge amount at stake...

So if we start Redden everything should be ok?.......oh wait Redden started against England in the 2012 6N's. We won that game.....didn't we?

danthefan

.ak wrote: »

I might not be Murray's biggest fan, but that's hardly fair. How many of those games did BOD start? You could use the same stat against him and I don't think it'd be fair. It's a 15 man game.

The stats revolving around the current coaching ticket and their win/loss ratio against the top 8 are far more telling.

It's obviously not entirely his fault. However not picking your best team does not help with winning games.

jm08

danthefan wrote: »

Interesting point - Ireland have never beaten a top 8 side with Murray starting.

Next weekend we play a top 8 side with a huge amount at stake...

Reddan's cv. Lost against Argentina the 2 times he started against them. We won when he was the sub.

Only 2 top 8 wins as starting scrumhalf - v. Australia (world cup) & v. England. He has 21 starting caps against Top 8 sides.

and Murray has only started against 4 top 8 sides - the No. 1 (NZ), & the No. 2 (SA) and Wales. 10 starting caps (3 of which were away against NZ).

He has a draw against France.

Bring back Tomas O'Leary - our most successful starting SH against Top 8 countries. And he is still in his 20s!

JRant

danthefan wrote: »

Interesting point - Ireland have never beaten a top 8 side with Murray starting.

Next weekend we play a top 8 side with a huge amount at stake...

Well we'll all have to hope he can break that run next saturday because he's probably the first ame down on the team sheet, there is no competition for the 9 jersey.

Not really surprising though, when you take a young player like that, with so many issues with his fundamentals and throw him in the deep end he's always going to struggle.

Foxtrol

JRant wrote: »

Well we'll all have to hope he can break that run next saturday because he's probably the first ame down on the team sheet, there is no competition for the 9 jersey.

Not really surprising though, when you take a young player like that, with so many issues with his fundamentals and throw him in the deep end he's always going to struggle.

If it wasnt for Kidney there would be though.

Fishooks12

danthefan wrote: »

Interesting point - Ireland have never beaten a top 8 side with Murray starting.

Next weekend we play a top 8 side with a huge amount at stake...

Completely unfair on Murray. Why even bring that up? In fact, it would be interesting to know how many top 8 sides we've beaten with Sexton it ten. I'd wager we've lost a lot more than we have won.

Stats are only useful when looked at in context, Murray has been abject for a lot of his early International career, but using him as a scapegoat is ridiculous

copacetic

Is everyone agreed that this is the situation?

https://twitter.com/brendcole/status/270136149861863424
Brendan Cole (@brendcole)
18/11/2012 12:07
If Ireland lose to Arg, and Scots beat Tonga by more than 15, Ireland will drop out of top 8. #rankings #IRB


@brendcole: If they lose, Ireland will drop below 78. Scots will go above with win. Wales cannot drop under 78, so not a factor for Ireland. #rankings

And Wales don't come in to it?

Fishooks12

I'd start Marshall at 9 next week, but people are just kidding themselves if they think 9 is the big issue it is made out to be here.

We could have Genia playing 9 and he wouldn't make much of a difference when we have a backline that don't have a bogs notion what they're supposed to be doing

totallegend

.ak wrote: »

I can't speak for TL but I think he was agreeing with you and just observing how some of the press/media/fans feel about it.

Thanks .ak, yes that was exactly it.

Jaco, I was agreeing with you and just trying to highlight how the facts haven't changed but the perception of them has.

For example, when Elsom was at Leinster, there were no complaints that he was keeping Sean O'Brien on the bench, it was all "Leinster needed someone like Elsom to come in and show them how to win". Ditto Howlett in 2008, all we heard was how great he was for the setup and how he'd "bought into the Munster ethos." Mostly bullsh*t but that's how it was portrayed.

That was all fine because Ireland did so well in 2009 and everything was rosy.

Now, when Ireland are fighting to retain their relevance in international rugby, it turns out that the same players who we thought had been helping to drive Irish rugby on are, in fact, causing untold damage to it.

My point is that the influence of foreign players is actually less than it has been previously but the national coaching ticket needs a bogeyman to pin the blame on, rather than actually facing up to its own failings.

I just hate the spin that's been put on it, that's all.

JRant

Foxtrol wrote: »

If it wasnt for Kidney there would be though.

Absolutely right

Scioch

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I'd start Marshall at 9 next week, but people are just kidding themselves if they think 9 is the big issue it is made out to be here.

We could have Genia playing 9 and he wouldn't make much of a difference when we have a backline that don't have a bogs notion what they're supposed to be doing

I think it shows how Kidneys tactics are killing us though. His selection of Murray is only ever extra defence and hope for the best. Clear now that this doesnt work against top teams.

So while the changing of the SH might not make that much of a difference in itself it would only be done in an altered game plan to make use of the skills that Marshall and Reddan have over Murray. Which imo would be an attack based plan utilising pace. I think that suits the Irish team far far more than the old kick for territory, hope for a penalty and defend for your life routine we seem to be doing most of these days.

jacothelad

totallegend wrote: »

Thanks .ak, yes that was exactly it.

Jaco, I was agreeing with you and just trying to highlight how the facts haven't changed but the perception of them has.

For example, when Elsom was at Leinster, there were no complaints that he was keeping Sean O'Brien on the bench, it was all "Leinster needed someone like Elsom to come in and show them how to win". Ditto Howlett in 2008, all we heard was how great he was for the setup and how he'd "bought into the Munster ethos." Mostly bullsh*t but that's how it was portrayed.

That was all fine because Ireland did so well in 2009 and everything was rosy.

Now, when Ireland are fighting to retain their relevance in international rugby, it turns out that the same players who we thought had been helping to drive Irish rugby on are, in fact, causing untold damage to it.

My point is that the influence of foreign players is actually less than it has been previously but the national coaching ticket needs a bogeyman to pin the blame on, rather than actually facing up to its own failings.

I just hate the spin that's been put on it, that's all.

Sorry man. Up far too early today. The dog got me up at 6.30. Fecker.

totallegend

jacothelad wrote: »

Sorry man. Up far too early today. The dog got me up at 6.30. Fecker.

My fault for posting at 2am with a few pints on board.

JRant

totallegend wrote: »

Thanks .ak, yes that was exactly it.

Jaco, I was agreeing with you and just trying to highlight how the facts haven't changed but the perception of them has.

For example, when Elsom was at Leinster, there were no complaints that he was keeping Sean O'Brien on the bench, it was all "Leinster needed someone like Elsom to come in and show them how to win". Ditto Howlett in 2008, all we heard was how great he was for the setup and how he'd "bought into the Munster ethos." Mostly bullsh*t but that's how it was portrayed.

That was all fine because Ireland did so well in 2009 and everything was rosy.

Now, when Ireland are fighting to retain their relevance in international rugby, it turns out that the same players who we thought had been helping to drive Irish rugby on are, in fact, causing untold damage to it.

My point is that the influence of foreign players is actually less than it has been previously but the national coaching ticket needs a bogeyman to pin the blame on, rather than actually facing up to its own failings.

I just hate the spin that's been put on it, that's all.

Spot on.
I mean whats the point of DK giving out about the lack of IQ props, blaming to many NIQ's, when he starts Ross in an A game with options available to him.

JRant

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Completely unfair on Murray. Why even bring that up? In fact, it would be interesting to know how many top 8 sides we've beaten with Sexton it ten. I'd wager we've lost a lot more than we have won.

Stats are only useful when looked at in context, Murray has been abject for a lot of his early International career, but using him as a scapegoat is ridiculous

Of course it's unfair on Murray. He doesn't pick the team so a lot of the blame lies with DK and Co.

It's such an important position that mistakes are somewhat amplified but the fact remains that we've been extremely blunt in attack since he came in. Now I'm not for one second blaming the young lad for this but it's as plain as day that his basics were not what they should have been for International rugby. He has improved a little this season but has a long way to go to become a top player.

totallegend

Exhibit A:

JRant wrote: »

I mean whats the point of DK giving out about the lack of IQ props, blaming to many NIQ's, when he starts Ross in an A game with options available to him.

Exhibit B:
Paul Marshall is behind an NIQ but due to Pienaar's injury last season and international duty this season, has got decent HC experience and has lit up the matches he's been involved in. His reward from Kidney? ONE MINUTE against the Barbarians, a trek to NZ with ZERO game minutes and twenty minutes in a non-cap game that was long over as a contest by the time he came on.

Exhibit C:
There must be five IQ looseheads who could have come on to replace Kilcoyne yesterday but Kidney chose to throw on Cian Healy who's been carrying a knock for months.

I know I'm like a broken record about Kidney but the biggest threat to the national team is not from South Africa or New Zealand, it's from Cork.

bleg

Podge_irl wrote: »

Henderson dropping out of the 23 completely? I really don't want to see Ryan or McCarthy at 6 tbh, particularly Ryan. I don't think he's impressed much for Munster there this season. He should stick to the second row.

Yea, Henderson was OK yesterday. Not as if he set the world alight with his performance. I mean it was a crappy Fiji side.

jm08

JRant wrote: »

Spot on.
I mean whats the point of DK giving out about the lack of IQ props, blaming to many NIQ's, when he starts Ross in an A game with options available to him.

Ross looks a fit unfit. Probably needs the gametime. Has said in the past he needs to be playing a lot.

There has been a good return on investment for some of those NIQ players and their contribution to the success of Irish rugby. For instance, Rocky Elsom was here for a season and wasn't around long enough to block the progress of any of the encumbents.

However, the return on investment on foreign props has not been good. Out of the following 8 props:
B.J. Botha,
Wian Du Preez
Henke Van Der Merwe
C.J. Van Der Linde
Ollie La Roux
Stan Wright
Freddie Puciarrello
Nathan White

only one homegrown prop of sufficent international quality (Cian Healy) has been produced. Not a good return in comparison to say the return on Rocky Elsom, Ruan Pienaar or Doug Howlett.

AngeGal

copacetic wrote: »

Is everyone agreed that this is the situation?

https://twitter.com/brendcole/status/270136149861863424

Brendan Cole (@brendcole)
18/11/2012 12:07
If Ireland lose to Arg, and Scots beat Tonga by more than 15, Ireland will drop out of top 8. #rankings #IRB


@brendcole: If they lose, Ireland will drop below 78. Scots will go above with win. Wales cannot drop under 78, so not a factor for Ireland. #rankings

And Wales don't come in to it?

That's insane, Scotland have beaten us what, once in the last ten years??

CatFromHue

totallegend wrote: »

Exhibit A:


Exhibit B:
Paul Marshall is behind an NIQ but due to Pienaar's injury last season and international duty this season, has got decent HC experience and has lit up the matches he's been involved in. His reward from Kidney? ONE MINUTE against the Barbarians, a trek to NZ with ZERO game minutes and twenty minutes in a non-cap game that was long over as a contest by the time he came on.

Exhibit C:
There must be five IQ looseheads who could have come on to replace Kilcoyne yesterday but Kidney chose to throw on Cian Healy who's been carrying a knock for months.

Marshall is different to the prop situation. It's pretty tough, and ****ty, but not uncommon for the lowest choice scrum half on tour to end up with no game time.

The prop situation is different. Take the first two rounds of the HEC. Ross, Botha and Afoa played all of both games for their teams. Even in Connacht Nathan White started both games with Loughney only coming on for 13 mins in one of the games.

So while it is great for the provinces to have these options available and help them succeed it's of little benefit to the Irish front row that Kidney can pick. Of the available 640mins of HEC cup available only 173mins were allocated to Irish qualified tight heads.

Quint2010

Sexton's injury notwithstanding, do people think yesterday heralded the end of ROG's international career?

danthefan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Completely unfair on Murray. Why even bring that up? In fact, it would be interesting to know how many top 8 sides we've beaten with Sexton it ten. I'd wager we've lost a lot more than we have won.

Stats are only useful when looked at in context, Murray has been abject for a lot of his early International career, but using him as a scapegoat is ridiculous

Despite Kidney continuing to pick ROG until the RWC, our only wins against top 8 opposition have been with Sexton at 10 since he came into the side.

Do you want the best team on the field? The team that's most likely to win? Because there is nothing on this earth that suggests we're more likely to win with Murray in the side as opposed to Reddan. Nothing.

Edit - Marshall is worth a punt too, would have no issue if he started.