Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

padraig.od

Otacon wrote: »

He means that despite Ross and SOB being the best options, it was the media pressure that forced the change in Kidney's selection.

Media pressure? Ross was scratching his hoop with Leinster for 18 months before he got himself fit and put a run of games together. When he was good enough he was selected.

Foxtrol

padraig.od wrote: »

Media pressure? Ross was scratching his hoop with Leinster for 18 months before he got himself fit and put a run of games together. When he was good enough he was selected.

2010 autumn internationals he was performing far better than Buckley and Hayes yet both were selected ahead of him. Like the majority of the players Kidney has blooded he actually only got into the squad for the 6 nations due with the assistance of injuries to Kidneys favourites.

JustinDee

No coach worth their salt succumbs to media pressure in the selection of a player.

lologram

JustinDee wrote: »

No coach worth their salt succumbs to media pressure in the selection of a player.

You're right, it's a great virtue to bravely say no to doing the right thing. Really shows a lot of backbone to keep doing the wrong thing in the face of overwhelming logic and commonly held opinion. Everyone's out of step except our Deccie.

SO BRAVE

JustinDee

JustinDee wrote: »

No coach worth their salt succumbs to media pressure in the selection of a player.

so instead spites them by sticking steadfastly to his old (not playing) troops?

cool

JustinDee

lologram wrote: »

You're right, it's a great virtue to bravely say no to doing the right thing. Really shows a lot of backbone to keep doing the wrong thing in the face of overwhelming logic and commonly held opinion. Everyone's out of step except our Deccie.

SO BRAVE

What top level professional coach can you think of (and can prove) that has picked a team based on public opinion??*







*this is my second last post as I said I'd knock posting on the head at 4000. Make it a good'un.

Madworld

Public Opinion is based normally on form.

What coach worth his salt ignores form?

Cpt_Blackbeard

OK, my understanding from looking at the squad is:
1 - The 24 players announced are players from the WC squad who are going to be available foe selection for the 6N.
2 - The "additional players" are the tackle bag holders and will not play for Ireland in the 6N. They are the most promising youngsters in the country and Kidney wants to work with them but, doesn't feel they are ready for international rugby.
3 - The wolfhounds squad consists of players who were not in the WC squad (and Boss) and they are all in the running for selection in the 6N. They are probably players who Kidney wants an extra week to work with as, they weren't involved in the training camp over Christmas.
4 - We will have to wait until the Wales game to see what this cluster**** actually means but, I think I'm making sense.

Are Gilroy, Caldwell and Marshall the only players we wanted/expected to see that aren't included? I'm surprised that nobody has expressed their delight at Buckley's exclusion...

lologram

JustinDee wrote: »

What top level professional coach can you think of (and can prove) that has picked a team based on public opinion??

I won't be trying to think of, let alone prove, such a case. Why? Because that is not the point I'm making, and it shouldn't be construed as such. One would hardly be naive enough to think I suggest a public vote on the Ireland (or any nation's) team, or any shades of anything like that.

Rather, I say that Declan Kidney's selection policies are not best for the Ireland team. He does not pick the best players, the best-suited players, and he does not play them in the best way. There's plenty of evidence of that and it's plain to see. If you reject that, that's ok, but most people don't.

I'm not claiming that I, or anyone else here, should be Ireland coach. Rather that a typical international coach of good calibre would not pick the Ireland team in this way.

It just so happens that Kidney's selection policies fly in the face of what I think is reasonable public opinion. He should not change them because other people think he should, he should change them because that would be best for the Irish team.

Finally, I get the impression that his selections are embedding against this wave of public opinion. I'm afraid that the Ireland team, and us who follow it, will continue to suffer because of his unwillingness to budge. I sincerely hope that his conservative selection has nothing to do with wanting to avoid being told how to pick his team by the media/the fans. Because then he's putting himself on the wrong side of the argument but it's the players and us that suffer, until such time as the results cost him his job.

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

OK, my understanding from looking at the squad is:
1 - The 24 players announced are players from the WC squad who are going to be available foe selection for the 6N.
2 - The "additional players" are the tackle bag holders and will not play for Ireland in the 6N. They are the most promising youngsters in the country and Kidney wants to work with them but, doesn't feel they are ready for international rugby.
3 - The wolfhounds squad consists of players who were not in the WC squad (and Boss) and they are all in the running for selection in the 6N. They are probably players who Kidney wants an extra week to work with as, they weren't involved in the training camp over Christmas.
4 - We will have to wait until the Wales game to see what this cluster**** actually means but, I think I'm making sense.

Are Gilroy, Caldwell and Marshall the only players we wanted/expected to see that aren't included? I'm surprised that nobody has expressed their delight at Buckley's exclusion...

It was such a given at this stage.

If he had been included Kidney might just have been assasinated.

gally74

Tox56 wrote: »

I don't understand, are you saying they don't deserve to be there?

I'm saying that they are picking players with ire contracts to keep costs down,

CiaranMT

Madworld wrote: »

Public Opinion is based normally on form.

And provincial allegiance plays no part? :pac:

Podge_irl

gally74 wrote: »

I'm saying that they are picking players with ire contracts to keep costs down,

I don't see how it's supposedly keeping costs down.

Anyway, poor results will cost the IRFU a lot more then they'll save from forcing out of form centrally contracted players to play.

almighty1

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I'm surprised that nobody has expressed their delight at Buckley's exclusion...

Considering Declan KiddingMe wouldnt pick overseas players such as Casey and Murphy who actually can play rugby in their position, its really would be taking the biscuit to select an overseas prop who cant scrummage.

One right doesn't negate 5 wrongs :rolleyes:

chancer12

This is unbelievable, gutted for Fitz. What does he have to do to be selected or more importantly what does Earls have to do to be dropped? Delighted Trimble is in the frame but can't understand Fitzys exclusion - McFadden/Wallace on the squad ahead of him? Not that Trimble will be given much game time anyway despite deserving it, it's all about Keet. Suppose we'll see ROG starting ahead of Jonny as well. And picking Leo when he's out injured WTF. Ask any schoolboy player to name a squad and they'd have put a more successful selection together. Cant believe he's actually paid a salary for this messing!

Podge_irl

I'd be surprised if Fitz didn't come into the reckoning for the senior squad after the Wolfhounds game. I'd be equally surprised if any other players did.

Tox56

CiaranMT wrote: »

And provincial allegiance plays no part? :pac:

It may have a little part, but as a Leinster fan, I don't see the point in having more Leinster players in, purely for being Leinster players. They make up the bulk of the squad, so there is no "provincial pride" issue desperately wanting some players in.

For example, I would rather McCarthy/Tuohy get called up instead of Toner, although Toner is playing really well this season.

CiaranMT

Tox56 wrote: »

It may have a little part, but as a Leinster fan, I don't see the point in having more Leinster players in, purely for being Leinster players. They make up the bulk of the squad, so there is no "provincial pride" issue desperately wanting some players in.

For example, I would rather McCarthy/Tuohy get called up instead of Toner, although Toner is playing really well this season.

That's you. The majority of fans won't be so reasonable about choices made.

vinny chase

Tox56 wrote: »

It may have a little part, but as a Leinster fan, I don't see the point in having more Leinster players in, purely for being Leinster players. They make up the bulk of the squad, so there is no "provincial pride" issue desperately wanting some players in.

For example, I would rather McCarthy/Tuohy get called up instead of Toner, although Toner is playing really well this season.

Yeah, I'd be in agreement. It's not about simply wanting more Leinster players in the side; it's about wanting the best players and in form players to be picked for Ireland.

I'd agree with your example above, in that Tuohy & McCarthy should be in the squad in place of DO'C and Leo, but I also would have liked to have seen Peter O'Mahony included in the Wolfhounds squad, I'd like to have seen Paul Marshall included in the Wolfhounds in place of O'Leary, I'd like to have seen Luke Fitzgerald included in the Senior squad (in place of Paddy Wallace) and Tiernan O'Halloran included in the Wolfhounds, and I'd like to see Craig Gilroy included in the Wolfhounds in place of Denis Hurley and I'd have Jamie Hagan in the Wolfhounds instead of Stephen Archer.

Those selections aren't simply trying to get more Leinster players in or anything like that; it's just wanting to see the best players and our most exciting young players get the opportunity I think they deserve.

jm08

CiaranMT wrote: »

That's you. The majority of fans won't be so reasonable about choices made.

And the provincial coaches might not be too happy about losing too many players, particularly if they could do well in this period and made the Playoffs. Far more useful than holding tackle bags for the internationals.

Both Ulster & Connacht will probably be losing a few players to the U20s 6ns as well.

Hagz

padraig.od wrote: »

How many games has Hagan played this year? He looks like the new Tony Buckley. Can't even make the Leinster bench.

That's a very un-informed opinion. White is realistically a better player than Ross based on his performances so I don't think Hagan's exclusion from the Leinster HC 23 means Archer deserves the spot. Who is Archer ahead of for Munster?.....and if Hayes hadn't retired then Archer wouldn't be making the Munster 23 either. Your point is moot.

Chucky Norris

who is irelands backs coach didnt gafney retire

CIARAN_BOYLE

Chucky Norris wrote: »

who is irelands backs coach didnt gafney retire

He went to a role in Australia. No replacement was hired but his responsibilities were redistributed to Kiss and Tainton.

Chucky Norris

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

He went to a role in Australia. No replacement was hired but his responsibilities were redistributed to Kiss and Tainton.

thanks

jacothelad

Hagz wrote: »

That's a very un-informed opinion. White is realistically a better player than Ross based on his performances so I don't think Hagan's exclusion from the Leinster HC 23 means Archer deserves the spot. Who is Archer ahead of for Munster?.....and if Hayes hadn't retired then Archer wouldn't be making the Munster 23 either. Your point is moot.

I would say that Deccie Fitzpatrick is a far superior player to Archer - as is Jerry Cronin. Hagan isn't brilliant but he's better than Archer. It's an amazing selection. What can it be based on? It certainly isn't his performances.

tolosenc

jacothelad wrote: »

I would say that Deccie Fitzpatrick is a far superior player to Archer - as is Jerry Cronin. Hagan isn't brilliant but he's better than Archer. It's an amazing selection. What can it be based on? It certainly isn't his performances.

Munster caps? *controversial*

CatFromHue

There was an interview in the Sunday Tribune today with Les Kiss. He was saying that the players highlighted Ireland's attacking weakness at the get together in Carton House at Christmas and felt we were to predictable with the ball.

The first step to finding a solution is always recognising you got a problem.

irishbucsfan

jacothelad wrote: »

Hagz wrote: »

That's a very un-informed opinion. White is realistically a better player than Ross based on his performances so I don't think Hagan's exclusion from the Leinster HC 23 means Archer deserves the spot. Who is Archer ahead of for Munster?.....and if Hayes hadn't retired then Archer wouldn't be making the Munster 23 either. Your point is moot.

I would say that Deccie Fitzpatrick is a far superior player to Archer - as is Jerry Cronin. Hagan isn't brilliant but he's better than Archer. It's an amazing selection. What can it be based on? It certainly isn't his performances.

I would guess that Greg Feek has a big say in which props are selected. Or at least some say.

Very interesting that Hagan isn't involved if that's the case!

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I would guess that Greg Feek has a big say in which props are selected. Or at least some say.

Very interesting that Hagan isn't involved if that's the case!

I thought he did well against Montpellier on Saturday. Not sure of his game time vs Archers though. That's about the only thing that could have sung it I reckon.

irishbucsfan

Hagan was under a lot of pressure in the scrum imo. Never seemed comfortable. Won a key turnover on the deck, but he was getting a bit bullied in the scrum which is not good to see.