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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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    #2252
    DeDoc
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭DeDoc


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Don't think that's a central contract issue. Any Irish player involved in international games faces restricted game time at provincial level.

    In the event that the provinces themselves paid the 'provincial part' of the salaries, then the bigger provinces could afford to pay more for this component. You'd have the Irish provinces competing against each other and not just against England (not so much these days) and France. And having two parts of the IRFU bidding against itself doesn't make much sense


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    #2253
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 17,169 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    I got my wires crossed Re:Darcys contract. Its a 2 year Leinster contract, not an IRFU central contract. I still stand by what I said about DO'C though. He should never have been offered a new central contract.


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    #2254
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    DeDoc wrote: »
    In the event that the provinces themselves paid the 'provincial part' of the salaries, then the bigger provinces could afford to pay more for this component.
    McFadden and SOB are on provinicial contracts, both effect ed by IRFU player management


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    #2255
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    McFadden and SOB are on provinicial contracts, both effect ed by IRFU player management

    So if the guys on provincial contracts are subject to player management, can be pulled from a game at Ireland's behest and so on, what is the functional difference between a provincial contract and a central one?

    Is it just the salaries involved?


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    #2256
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    totallegend wrote: »
    So if the guys on provincial contracts are subject to player management, can be pulled from a game at Ireland's behest and so on, what is the functional difference between a provincial contract and a central one?

    Is it just the salaries involved?
    Non centrally contracted players get Match fees when selected internationally.

    The provinces can't negotiate with centrally contracted players (or players negotiating a central contract) even if they have the money to make an offer.

    Munster wanted Buckley to renew for this season but because he was negotiating with the IRFU. When negotiation broke down Munster were not allowed make an offer so he took an offer from Sale.

    I don't think you can move provinces when one central contract expires.


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    #2257
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Clegg wrote: »
    I got my wires crossed Re:Darcys contract. Its a 2 year Leinster contract, not an IRFU central contract. I still stand by what I said about DO'C though. He should never have been offered a new central contract.

    People were slamming him on this forum last season following games that he was actually playing extremely well in, with next-to-nothing in missed tackles, high number of tackles made, almost 100% lineout ball, good calling, excellent at rucks and timely to almost every breakdown. He is also an important scrummager.

    Then they moaned about penalty counts while ignoring the players with higher penalty counts in same games.

    He has plenty to deliver and his experience is also vital, particularly at this next level up from ERC.


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    #2258
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,852 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    JustinDee wrote: »
    He has plenty to deliver and his experience is also vital, particularly at this next level up from ERC.

    I'm sure he does. But with two years to run on his central contract he's not even first choice at his province anymore. No one thinks he should have retired, just been moved off a central contract (or not given quite such a long one).


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    #2259
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Non centrally contracted players get Match fees when selected internationally.

    The provinces can't negotiate with centrally contracted players (or players negotiating a central contract) even if they have the money to make an offer.

    Munster wanted Buckley to renew for this season but because he was negotiating with the IRFU. When negotiation broke down Munster were not allowed make an offer so he took an offer from Sale.

    I don't think you can move provinces when one central contract expires.

    You mean Tony Buckley was lost to Irish rugby over contractual turf wars?! Heads must roll!!

    Thanks for the clarification; it doesn't really answer why we'd all get so upset about D'Arcy or DOC getting a central contract rather than a provincial one (or does it?)


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    #2260
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    totallegend wrote: »
    You mean Tony Buckley was lost to Irish rugby over contractual turf wars?! Heads must roll!!

    Thanks for the clarification; it doesn't really answer why we'd all get so upset about D'Arcy or DOC getting a central contract rather than a provincial one (or does it?)
    There is a perception that since the IRFU pays match fees (and possibly training fees) to non centrally contracted players that play for the national team that Declan Kidney is pressurised to pick centrally contracted players in his squads and in his teams.

    Gert Smal once said something along the lines of 'We've invested a lot in Buckley so we feel he needs to have more chances with the international' People assume central contract player payed money by IRFU so the player must be picked


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    #2261
    axel the red
    Registered Users Posts: 18 ✭axel the red


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Munster wanted Buckley to renew for this season but because he was negotiating with the IRFU. When negotiation broke down Munster were not allowed make an offer so he took an offer from Sale.

    Well thank fcuk for that!!!!!!!


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    #2262
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    There is a perception that since the IRFU pays match fees (and possibly training fees) to non centrally contracted players that play for the national team that Declan Kidney is pressurised to pick centrally contracted players in his squads and in his teams.

    Gert Smal once said something along the lines of 'We've invested a lot in Buckley so we feel he needs to have more chances with the international' People assume central contract player payed money by IRFU so the player must be picked

    Kidney wasn't pressurised into bringing Luke fitz & O'Leary to the world cup (both on central contracts).

    Was Gert Smal not talking about the time invested in Buckley rather than the money?


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    #2263
    Kate Harsh Lightning
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Kate Harsh Lightning


    jm08 wrote: »
    Kidney wasn't pressurised into bringing Luke fitz & O'Leary to the world cup (both on central contracts).

    Was Gert Smal not talking about the time invested in Buckley rather than the money?

    He couldn't have tried harder to do just this.


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    #2264
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    jm08 wrote: »
    Kidney wasn't pressurised into bringing Luke fitz & O'Leary to the world cup (both on central contracts).

    Was Gert Smal not talking about the time invested in Buckley rather than the money?
    While I agree with about Fitz TOL had injury worries that he played through the WC warm ups with. Once it was decided that he wasn't going he got it treated. Remember he didn't play for Munster till the 28th of October so I'm assuming Kidney wanted to bring him but his condition wasn't good enough.

    I heard the same thing about Smal Buckley but a lot of people assume that he was talking about money which is why a lot of people think Kidney is pressurised to pick centrally contracted players

    Personally I think that he doesn't necessarily pick centrally contracted players but in a close call he will pick the centrally contracted player


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    #2265
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I'm sure he does. But with two years to run on his central contract he's not even first choice at his province anymore. No one thinks he should have retired, just been moved off a central contract (or not given quite such a long one).


    DOC would still walk into most teams around. Think he had a few good offers as well and with POC's injury worries at the time, it wasn't a good time to let him be heading off for foreign shores.


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    #2266
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    While I agree with about Fitz TOL had injury worries that he played through the WC warm ups with. Once it was decided that he wasn't going he got it treated. Remember he didn't play for Munster till the 28th of October so I'm assuming Kidney wanted to bring him but his condition wasn't good enough.

    I heard the same thing about Smal Buckley but a lot of people assume that he was talking about money which is why a lot of people think Kidney is pressurised to pick centrally contracted players

    Personally I think that he doesn't necessarily pick centrally contracted players but in a close call he will pick the centrally contracted player

    Probably wanted to bring him because of the type of player he is (physical). If Conor Murray (physical type player) had not emerged, he probably would still have gone.

    Luke though is a very good example of how central contracts are not the decider. He would have gone instead of McFadden if that was the case.


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    #2267
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,852 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    jm08 wrote: »
    DOC would still walk into most teams around. Think he had a few good offers as well and with POC's injury worries at the time, it wasn't a good time to let him be heading off for foreign shores.

    D'Arcy didn't head off to foreign shores when he lost his central contract...


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    #2268
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    jm08 wrote: »
    DOC would still walk into most teams around. Think he had a few good offers as well and with POC's injury worries at the time, it wasn't a good time to let him be heading off for foreign shores.

    D'Arcy didn't head off to foreign shores when he lost his central contract...
    Did anyone?


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    #2269
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    jm08 wrote: »
    DOC would still walk into most teams around. Think he had a few good offers as well and with POC's injury worries at the time, it wasn't a good time to let him be heading off for foreign shores.

    That, frankly, was never going to happen. The tax rebate is the greatest player-retention tool the IRFU have.


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    #2270
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    D'Arcy didn't head off to foreign shores when he lost his central contract...

    A centre would not have been as much in demand as someone like a lock. Nathan Hines had no problem picking up a contract with a top club in France at his age. Darce had injury problems as well. DOC has been remarkably fit over the years and no one knew how Paul O'Connell's injury was going to work out.


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    #2271
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    totallegend wrote: »
    That, frankly, was never going to happen. The tax rebate is the greatest player-retention tool the IRFU have.

    It didn't stop Buckley going. There are massive amounts of money in France that would well make up for it. And DOC could have come back and got a year or two to wind down his career at 33/34 in Munster.


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    #2272
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    jm08 wrote: »
    totallegend wrote: »
    That, frankly, was never going to happen. The tax rebate is the greatest player-retention tool the IRFU have.

    It didn't stop Buckley going. There are massive amounts of money in France that would well make up for it. And DOC could have come back and got a year or two to wind down his career at 33/34 in Munster.
    My god, was Tony Buckley on a central contract?


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    #2273
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    jm08 wrote: »
    It didn't stop Buckley going. There are massive amounts of money in France that would well make up for it. And DOC could have come back and got a year or two to wind down his career at 33/34 in Munster.

    Not comparing like with like.

    Given that Buckley was a peipheral figure for most of his career in Ireland, I'm going to wager that his salary (and therefore tax rebate) was a fraction of O'Callaghan's, so not nearly as much motivation to stay.


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    #2274
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    My god, was Tony Buckley on a central contract?

    He was. And he was offered another one but got a better offer from Sale. (IRFU a 1 year one, Sale 3 years).

    Supply and demand for props would explain the 3 year contract from Sale.


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    #2275
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    totallegend wrote: »
    Not comparing like with like.

    Given that Buckley was a peipheral figure for most of his career in Ireland, I'm going to wager that his salary (and therefore tax rebate) was a fraction of O'Callaghan's, so not nearly as much motivation to stay.

    I'd say DOC would easily double his earnings in France. (Chabal on 1m a year or something crazy like that). If he went for 2 years which would make him 33/34, he'd get an Irish contract for at least a year so could get his tax rebate.


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    #2276
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    jm08 wrote: »
    I'd say DOC would easily double his earnings in France. (Chabal on 1m a year or something crazy like that). If he went for 2 years which would make him 33/34, he'd get an Irish contract for at least a year so could get his tax rebate.

    I disagree that he would double his earnings and I certainly disagree that Munster/IRFU would welcome him back with open arms at age 33/34 just to give him a dig out with his taxes (at least, I would hope they wouldn't).

    Chabal makes ridiculous money but that is for his profile rather than his actual rugby ability; DOC would not be in the same league.


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    #2277
    Cpt_Blackbeard
    Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    totallegend wrote: »
    jm08 wrote: »
    It didn't stop Buckley going. There are massive amounts of money in France that would well make up for it. And DOC could have come back and got a year or two to wind down his career at 33/34 in Munster.

    Not comparing like with like.

    Given that Buckley was a peipheral figure for most of his career in Ireland, I'm going to wager that his salary (and therefore tax rebate) was a fraction of O'Callaghan's, so not nearly as much motivation to stay.

    I'd guess that they were on similar money. THs are very, very well paid.


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    #2278
    ray jay
    Registered Users Posts: 881 ✭✭✭ray jay


    jm08 wrote: »
    Chabal on 1m a year or something crazy like that
    I don't believe that for a second. The highest wages I've heard of being offered by French clubs has been €400k, and that's for tightheads who are in high demand. Maybe you saw the figure for a multi year contract?


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    #2279
    DeDoc
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭DeDoc


    http://frenchrugbyclub.com/Top-14/Top-14-2009-10/Top-14-Money-Talks-000999.html

    suggests €400K or so for Chabal in wages, plus maybe €800K in endorsements etc


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    #2280
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    ray jay wrote: »
    I don't believe that for a second. The highest wages I've heard of being offered by French clubs has been €400k, and that's for tightheads who are in high demand. Maybe you saw the figure for a multi year contract?

    I remember reading somewhere that he is the highest paid rugby player in the world. It seems he was on half a million for Sale and he went to Racing, a club with a huge budget.
    The backers were numerous meaning his off-field activities now earn him twice as much as the half a million euros a year paid to him by his club Sale.

    Considering he is nothing much in demand like TH, outhalf, its an amazing amount of money to pay him. It was reported recently that Paul O'Connell was on 350K per annum to give it some perspective.


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    #2281
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »
    I'd guess that they were on similar money. Good THs are very, very well paid.

    Fixed that for you.

    Whatever BJ Botha and John Afoa are getting paid is money well spent. Buckley, on the other hand... Meh, I don't care what he is/was paid to be honest, at least now he's shipped off to England Deccie won't feel the need to keep picking him, and that's the important thing.


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