Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

ed7890

Tox56 wrote: »

Maybe he was under orders (he shouldn't have been), but Murray was indecisive and his decision making process needs to speed up.

When someone makes a break and we get some front-foot ball, I can assure you DK isn't telling Murray to slow things down and keep it tight, it's just Murray didn't make his decision quick enough.

I'm not saying he can't improve in time.

I thought he did most of his slow stuff in our own half, when he took a long time to do his box kicks. But when we were on the attack he was quick enough.

irishbucsfan

ed7890 wrote: »

Tox56 wrote: »

Maybe he was under orders (he shouldn't have been), but Murray was indecisive and his decision making process needs to speed up.

When someone makes a break and we get some front-foot ball, I can assure you DK isn't telling Murray to slow things down and keep it tight, it's just Murray didn't make his decision quick enough.

I'm not saying he can't improve in time.

I thought he did most of his slow stuff in our own half, when he took a long time to do his box kicks. But when we were on the attack he was quick enough.

Wrong

Cpt_Blackbeard

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

leftleg wrote: »

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

There are a hell of a lot more similarities between the play expected of a lock and an 8 than between a hooker and a winger. You quite simply picked the most contrasting positions on the pitch to try and rationalize bias and double standards.

Thats because you keep comparing Heaslip to a winger:

I'm not comparing anybody's form. Just complaining of the double standards that posters here appear to accept and endorse.

I agree with you here el capitano. I know that you agree when people say Ryan should be starting.

Your point is that people are criticising DOC unfairly. I agree with that. I don't think DOC has been poor at all.

I dislike how people feel the need to criticise X in order to compliment Y. DOC is good but Ryan is better. I think we're agreed there.

I am worried that you seem to think Heaslip is playing poorly, that is pretty unforgivable!

I don't think that Heaslip is playing poorly at all. He could improve -especially his carrying from the back of a Scrum - but he has markedly upped his game since the pre and early WC games. He is a very smart player and his work at the breakdown is ever improving. I have actually been reasonably complimentary to him recently as he is starting to play at a level that a player of his talent should be at.

Neil3030

I don't mind Murray being selected; if he's to be our long term 9 alongside Sexton it's better to ride it out and let them gel.

As I've said before though, they need to limit his decision-making until he gains the requisite test experience. I know 9 is a very dynamic and reactive position, but I'm sure they can simplify his role; even a tiny bit should see a massive overall improvement.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

There are a hell of a lot more similarities between the play expected of a lock and an 8 than between a hooker and a winger. You quite simply picked the most contrasting positions on the pitch to try and rationalize bias and double standards.

you do realise I just listed a lot of "unseen" work that can be attributed to a second row player?

You realise that instead of countering one of those items, of which DOC has not been any (on a consistent basis) when compared with any of the other second row options; you simply focussed on the analogy given. These are the "unseen work" that second row that is doing is "unseen work" can at least point to when they're not being lauded with plaudits for their play.

DOC is actually playing better rugby since the start of the 6N than he has for almost 18 months, yet it still is not as good as what we could expect from Ryan or Tuohy at this stage.

molloyjh

Tox56 wrote: »

3) If Earls plays badly it will hopefully open DK's eyes and he will be put back on the wing, and someone else will get a chance.

You have been following the squad announcements over the last few years haven't you?

leakyboots wrote: »

Speak for yourself.

The problem is he isn't just speaking for himself. He's speaking for quite a lot of rugby fans out there. Most in my experience.

shootermacg wrote: »

Is everyone forgetting the actual reason Reddan isn't starting all games for ireland? The infamous brain-farting and general stupid crap he has a tendency to do.

And that does get mentioned a bit. The last brain fart in a green jersey that I can remember was against England in March last year when he threw that intercept for Thompson to score. That said given that in a very good all round display versus Murray as he played (game plan or not) against Italy I'd take Reddan every time.

shootermacg wrote: »

I like quick ball as much as anyone, Murray was under orders to keep it tight, that's easy to see. Reddan was brought on to up the pace in the final quarter.
Blame Kidney for the game-plan, yous hardly think Kidney is telling Murray to scoop it out and Murray's doing the opposite??? I mean come on! Am I going insane here??!

Kidneys game plan has gotten a fair auld beating here over the last long while. But there's keep it tight and there's slow. Leaving a ball at the base of a ruck for 8 seconds (someone said one occasion was that long) is doing far more than keeping it tight. I can't see how that benefits us under any kind of game plan.

Keeping it tight would entail passing it out to the forward pods to crash ball up to the gain line rather than spinning it out to the backs. You only need slow ball for that when the forward pods aren't set, i.e. to give them time to set. Once they are the ball should be out to them immediately. That wasn't the case with Murray last week.

shootermacg wrote: »

You guys are more than happy to blame Kidney for Sexton's aimless kicking against Wales.....Too much flavour of the week crap going on!

We blamed Kidney and Tainton for general aimless kicking, of which Sexton and Murray were both perpetrators.

shootermacg

I'd be happy to see box kicks not being used to clear the 22 or for touch.
Another thing that would be nice is to keep possession, the scots were very impressive against france mainly because they didn't give the ball to france...ever ^ ^.
Way too much kicking in the irish game, has been for some time now, but I guess it is either that or a knock-on competition, it's been coming down to basic skill issues in the irish camp for quite a while now.

ray jay

The impact substitutions argument for keeping Reddan and Ryan on the bench doesn't make any sense when we're up against France. They have high quality subs to bring on too, so we can't rely on fresh legs to win the game in the last 20 minutes.


At this point my hope would be that we see some changes for the match against Scotland. Nothing too drastic, but at the very least Ryan and Reddan could start.

Podge_irl

Neil3030 wrote: »

As I've said before though, they need to limit his decision-making until he gains the requisite test experience..

His decision making is the big problem though. Aside from being too slow to get to the ball, he takes far too long to decide what to do with it when he gets there. There is no way to limit his decision making skills - he is in arguably the most vital decision making position on the pitch. This is where his real inexperience is showing. He needs more experience with Munster so he has a better idea of what to do in certain situations.

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

I don't mind Murray being selected; if he's to be our long term 9 alongside Sexton it's better to ride it out and let them gel.

As I've said before though, they need to limit his decision-making until he gains the requisite test experience. I know 9 is a very dynamic and reactive position, but I'm sure they can simplify his role; even a tiny bit should see a massive overall improvement.

We should pick Hagan at 3 as well and just limit his scrummaging

LostinBlanch

shootermacg wrote: »

Is everyone forgetting the actual reason Reddan isn't starting all games for ireland? The infamous brain-farting and general stupid crap he has a tendency to do.
I like quick ball as much as anyone, Murray was under orders to keep it tight, that's easy to see. Reddan was brought on to up the pace in the final quarter.
Blame Kidney for the game-plan, yous hardly think Kidney is telling Murray to scoop it out and Murray's doing the opposite??? I mean come on! Am I going insane here??!

NO, I think the problem is that Kidney prefers to have a scrumhalf that looks big and can defend around the fringes a whole lot more than having a scrumhalf that actually plays like a scrumhalf. You know things like getting to the breakdown quickly and getting the ball away to get the best out of our backs. Look at the TOL fiasco and the way that Murray* has gone backwards since Kidney has selected him. The fact that TOL** and Murray are from Munster and Reddan and Boss are from Leinster just muddies the water. Kidney is way too conservative and it is killing our play. With the quality of players we have we should have done an awful lot better than we have so far. Unfortunately our recent national coaches haven't been up to the quality of the players they were/are coaching.

shootermacg wrote: »

Now the disclaimer: I don't mind if they play Reddan or Murray but don't confuse a game-plan with the mark they get to carry it out, but personally I think Murray is the better option at least he can play a Boss or a Reddan.

Saying all that I would like to see some fast ball from the start.

You're assuming that there actually is a game plan other than give the ball to SOB who runs about two yards forward into three or four players, is brought to ground. Then the ball is taken by POC who goes forward about a yard is double tackled, goes to ground. Heaslip or Ferris then does the same, rinse and repeat until Murray does his two step giving Darcy, Earls, Bowe et al a nice settled defense to try and breach. :rolleyes:

*Not interested in Murray bashing, hopefully he'll turn out to be a superb SH soon, but sadly I just can't see that happening under Kidney.
**As for TOL, he's great athlete, but not a SH, so there is no reason on earth that he should be keeping Marshall from the 54 players selected for the 6N.

Cpt_Blackbeard

leftleg wrote: »

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I'm not comparing anybody's form. Just complaining of the double standards that posters here appear to accept and endorse.

"Your Team To Play Australia
Cpt_Blackbeard replied 5 months, 3 weeks ago
The biggest selection issues for the AUS match surround the backrow and 12 jersey imo. Houdini (Yup, I'm starting to call him that now) is in terrible form and is living off his reputation and D'Arcy isn't the first cousin of an international centre any more. Houdini deserves to be dropped but, without Wallace we don't have many options in the backrow. As good as Jennings can be for Leinster"

ok dokey

I really don't see what point you're making other than you've somehow got a knowledge of posts on this forum that precede your membership?

Do I employ some sort of double standard in that post from half a year ago? My issue with Heaslip was that he wasn't playing the game at a level approaching where he should have been at. Games were passing him by without any significant input and he wasn't carrying the ball to the line with any real hunger when the opportunity presented itself. He is a player of immense talent and I was hypercritical of him because he should have consistently been one of our standout performers every week but, he wasn't.

Its quite similar to my current opinion on SOB. His performances aren't were they should/could be and he needs to get a kick up the backside to get him back there. I haven't been as critical of players like DOC and Murray as I font expect them to be putting in the same level of performance as our superstar backrowers. My opinions change as the facts do.

Tox56

Have to say after watching the Italy game again, D'Arcy had a pretty good game, my favourite part being that perfectly delayed pass to Ferris in the Italian 22. That is a good example of where his experience will come in useful in such an inexperienced midifeld.

Still hope McFadden can overtake him soon.

leftleg

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I really don't see what point you're making other than you've somehow got a knowledge of posts on this forum that precede your membership?

miaaww Is there a law that i cant read a forum before i join it somewhere??

I pointed it out that you do or did call him Houdini; you did type that didn't you??

Anyway you now seem to like his "new role" as you call it; whatever that is.

Personally nothing has changed he was doing the same role now as he was 6 months ago; the you only shame is that you couldn't see it. Probably counting the seconds while Murray dithered over a ruck.

ed7890

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Wrong

Really? :eek: Thanks for the info

.ak

leakyboots wrote: »

Speak for yourself.

I am very jealous if you are getting any enjoyment from watching Ireland at the moment.

danthefan

shootermacg wrote: »

I like quick ball as much as anyone, Murray was under orders to keep it tight, that's easy to see. Reddan was brought on to up the pace in the final quarter.
Blame Kidney for the game-plan, yous hardly think Kidney is telling Murray to scoop it out and Murray's doing the opposite??? I mean come on! Am I going insane here??!

Since when does keep it tight = keep it painfully slow?

irishbucsfan

danthefan wrote: »

shootermacg wrote: »

I like quick ball as much as anyone, Murray was under orders to keep it tight, that's easy to see. Reddan was brought on to up the pace in the final quarter.
Blame Kidney for the game-plan, yous hardly think Kidney is telling Murray to scoop it out and Murray's doing the opposite??? I mean come on! Am I going insane here??!

Since when does keep it tight = keep it painfully slow?

Isaac Boss never got the memo, poor little fella

danthefan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Isaac Boss never got the memo, poor little fella

I have no idea what you're on about.

molloyjh

danthefan wrote: »

I have no idea what you're on about.

He's just saying that Boss keeps it tight without being painfully slow.

danthefan

molloyjh wrote: »

He's just saying that Boss keeps it tight without being painfully slow.

Oh, fair enough.

We didn't even keep it tight with Murray though, the ball went to our backs plenty.

leftleg

danthefan wrote: »

We didn't even keep it tight with Murray though, the ball went to our backs plenty.

He did try and keep it tight, he just made a mess of that too

Fireball07

LostinBlanch wrote: »

NO, I think the problem is that Kidney prefers to have a scrumhalf that looks big and can defend around the fringes a whole lot more than having a scrumhalf that actually plays like a scrumhalf. You know things like getting to the breakdown quickly and getting the ball away to get the best out of our backs. Look at the TOL fiasco and the way that Murray* has gone backwards since Kidney has selected him. The fact that TOL** and Murray are from Munster and Reddan and Boss are from Leinster just muddies the water. Kidney is way too conservative and it is killing our play. With the quality of players we have we should have done an awful lot better than we have so far. Unfortunately our recent national coaches haven't been up to the quality of the players they were/are coaching.


You're assuming that there actually is a game plan other than give the ball to SOB who runs about two yards forward into three or four players, is brought to ground. Then the ball is taken by POC who goes forward about a yard is double tackled, goes to ground. Heaslip or Ferris then does the same, rinse and repeat until Murray does his two step giving Darcy, Earls, Bowe et al a nice settled defense to try and breach. :rolleyes:

*Not interested in Murray bashing, hopefully he'll turn out to be a superb SH soon, but sadly I just can't see that happening under Kidney.
**As for TOL, he's great athlete, but not a SH, so there is no reason on earth that he should be keeping Marshall from the 54 players selected for the 6N.

I don't think it was quite as bad as you make it out, Murray didn't have a good game at all against Italy but you're exaggerating. Against Wales he generally did move the ball quickly and we actually did open their defence a good few times when we upped the intensity.

And as for TOL, you might be right regarding Marshall but you have to remember he was actually an improvement on Boss in the Wolfhounds game. Both Boss and Keatley were very poor for that game. I wouldn't be surprised to see TOL come back for Ireland in the future.

Tox56 wrote: »

Have to say after watching the Italy game again, D'Arcy had a pretty good game, my favourite part being that perfectly delayed pass to Ferris in the Italian 22. That is a good example of where his experience will come in useful in such an inexperienced midifeld.

Still hope McFadden can overtake him soon.

That was class but it wasn't all good. He definitely mixed good and bad. Through some really shoddy passes too but that moment and his break that led to Earls' try were important moments.

desertcircus

Heard from a friend who was in Carton House last week that Kidney was constantly screaming at Murray to speed up the ball. Why he then picked him again after the Italy game, I have no idea.

phog

desertcircus wrote: »

Heard from a friend who was in Carton House last week that Kidney was constantly screaming at Murray to speed up the ball. Why he then picked him again after the Italy game, I have no idea.

Does anyone really believe this?

desertcircus

Yeah, it does sound unlikely. That said, I know the guy well and know he was in Carton House while the team were there (have seen the Facebook photos), and I've no idea why he'd make up such a specific fib.

phog

desertcircus wrote: »

Yeah, it does sound unlikely. That said, I know the guy well and know he was in Carton House while the team were there (have seen the Facebook photos), and I've no idea why he'd make up such a specific fib.

Has he any photos of Kidney near Murray while constantly screaming at him, it would be worth a look if he has?

durkadurka

No he needs audio tape too. A photo isn't adequate.
In fact I think we need sworn affidavits.


For the love of jaysus.

phog

durkadurka wrote: »

No he needs audio tape too. A photo isn't adequate.
In fact I think we need sworn affidavits.


For the love of jaysus.

Do you believe it happened?

durkadurka

It might and it mightn't. No one will ever prove it one way or another unless a player mentions it or something . A photo will prove nothing.to prove it categorically you would need to show several incidents of deccie repeating same instruction to Murray, which is frankly ludicrous.


Accept it for the gossip that it is, and chill.