Pairc Ui Chaoimh re-development

Subpopulus

D'Agger wrote: »

Well, if that's what's happened then funding should be pulled & the CCB (who I'm assuming would be responsible for that change) should be left hanging

I have no idea, but this development, along with the issue about the cost-benefit analysis not having being made, makes it look as if the Government will be tightening their grip on the 30 million they've put aside for this.

Remember, the GAA's plans to redevelop Casement Park in Belfast are going through similar difficulties - a judge ruled that the planning application that was granted to them was illegal somehow, and there's also some problem with the amount of money they're getting from the NI Government...

The GAA's ability to develop large-scale infrastructural projects is looking decidedly amateurish.

KCAccidental

here is a picture of the stand in question and the demolition plan.

Subpopulus

I can only assume that some major structural defect was discovered with the North Stand and the GAA applied for and was granted a further demolition order which has slipped under the radar. Otherwise this action would appear to be illegal.

KCAccidental

Subpopulus wrote: »

I can only assume that some major structural defect was discovered with the North Stand

that will be the story anyways :rolleyes:

Nonoperational

So the awful old stand is being demolished. How terrible. People like D'Agger should write a strongly worded letter. Would make them feel better. Lol.

D'Agger

Nonoperational wrote: »

So the awful old stand is being demolished. How terrible. People like D'Agger should write a strongly worded letter. Would make them feel better. Lol.

Well I could be jumping the gun but I'd imagine structural analysis was carried out before the project went into operation so it's unlikely there was a reason for them to do this other than to deviate from the initial plan which annoys me - as has been said, this could well slow down the development if there are issues with it, which I'm confident there will be.

I ultimately want this to be a success so it's a bit of a wtf in fairness....lol

Michael..

I was jogging down there today. The North Stand is as good as gone. That 70 million budget is looking optimistic now. I'd imagine they're going to have to go back to get a fresh planning application given that the demolition of the North Stand was never in the original planning.

Rightwing

Does cork even need a big stadium? the likes of waterford don't have 1

Michael..

Rightwing wrote: »

Does cork even need a big stadium? the likes of waterford don't have 1

It's questionable to say the least. A 30,000 municipal stadium would be sufficient for a city the size of Cork. Building a 45,000 - 50,000 capacity GAA stadium is clearly not needed. That said I'm happy it's being built. That part of the city is really run down and investing 70 - 80 million can only be a good thing.

The_Kew_Tour

40,000 would have been the ideal size, personally

SpaceTime

Rightwing wrote: »

Does cork even need a big stadium? the likes of waterford don't have 1

Population

Co Waterford :113,795
Co Cork: 519,032

Slight difference...

j8wk2feszrnpao

SpaceTime wrote: »

Population

Co Waterford :113,795
Co Cork: 519,032

Slight difference...

Even with the population difference, how many times a year will Cork fill the stadium? The double headers in Thurles don't seem to draw a full capacity.

SpaceTime

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Even with the population difference, how many times a year will Cork fill the stadium? The double headers in Thurles don't seem to draw a full capacity.

That's why I think Cork needed a municipal stadium.

As it stands we've three and a half poor quality unsustainable stadia and that seems to be how the locals like it!

The ideal solution might have been a decent stadium and convention centre maybe on the Midleton Rail line with its own station, lots of car parking and an exit off the N24 dual carriage way with plenty of space.

But, this is Ireland we don't do things like that. We prefer to put these things in inaccessible awkward locations, cause maximum inconvenience and put them so close to residential areas they need planning permission to host concerts.

Cork could have a wonderful and very used facility if it just put something into the correct location!

Same goes for Dublin.

Ren2k7

PuC's redevelopment was a wasted opportunity. Instead of having this, Musgrave Park and (lol) Indo Park it would have been better to have one c.40k all seater stadium built to UEFA's highest category for stadia. And the same should have been true for Limerick. At least there's a chance (albeit small) for Galway City to have a single stadium hosting GAA, Connacht Rugby and whatever incarnation of Galway FC exists at present. Let's hope the government and stakeholders don't squander this.

Subpopulus

The City has plans to put a railway station at Tivoli and construct a bridge between the Lower Glanmire road and the Monaghan Road, so Pairc Ui Chaoimh that will get rail and road connectivity eventually. Round 2030 I'd guess.

Putting a stadium or convention centre way out on the edge of the city next to a dual carriageway I think would be a dreadful idea. Stadiums like that are usually devoid of atmosphere. Remember the Bertie Bowl? One of the main criticisms of that was that journeying out to an industrial zone beyond the M50 would have sucked all the joy out of attending international fixtures. Same with a stadium situated around Little Island.

The area around Pairc Ui Chaoimh will be developed eventually, and the city and it's transport systems will grow around the stadium. The location isn't really the problem here.

SpaceTime

There's clearly something wrong with the location or the stadium would be used.

Most countries place large new stadia on transit routes.

namloc1980

SpaceTime wrote: »

That's why I think Cork needed a municipal stadium.

As it stands we've three and a half poor quality unsustainable stadia and that seems to be how the locals like it!

The ideal solution might have been a decent stadium and convention centre maybe on the Midleton Rail line with its own station, lots of car parking and an exit off the N24 dual carriage way with plenty of space.

But, this is Ireland we don't do things like that. We prefer to put these things in inaccessible awkward locations, cause maximum inconvenience and put them so close to residential areas they need planning permission to host concerts.

Cork could have a wonderful and very used facility if it just put something into the correct location!

Same goes for Dublin.

Who exactly would use a municipal stadium in Cork? There is an ongoing movement away from municipal stadiums built on the edge of cities in Europe and America. These stadia built in the 70s and 80s are being replaced by sport specific stadiums closer to the city core.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Ren2k7 wrote: »

PuC's redevelopment was a wasted opportunity. Instead of having this, Musgrave Park and (lol) Indo Park it would have been better to have one c.40k all seater stadium built to UEFA's highest category for stadia.

A 40k stadium as an alternative to Musgrave Park wouldn't be great. It wouldn't be like Edinburgh playing in Murrayfield (they finally looking to get out of there), but 8-10k in a 40k stadium would seriously hurt the atmosphere.

Each county in Munster requires their own 'county stadium'. But the upkeep of these 40k+ stadiums is far more expensive now than in the past. Ideally the province would have just one excellent 45-50k stadium (meeting EUFA requirements) for all of these Provincial Championship games to be played in, but I can never see the county boards coming together and agreeing on this. Sharing the expense of building such a stadium would be in the best interests of all.

SpaceTime

namloc1980 wrote: »

Who exactly would use a municipal stadium in Cork? There is an ongoing movement away from municipal stadiums built on the edge of cities in Europe and America. These stadia built in the 70s and 80s are being replaced by sport specific stadiums closer to the city core.

Care to name a few?

namloc1980

SpaceTime wrote: »

Care to name a few?

Across AmericaAmerica many stadiums have been replaced by sport specific stadiums. The Rivers in Pittsburgh replaced by seperate NFL and Baseball stadiums. Same in St Louis, Cincinnati, Cleveland among many others. In Turin Juventus built a new soccer specific stadium and left the municipal stadium. In Munich the Olympic stadium replaced by soccer specific stadium etc. etc. Again who would use a municipal stadium in Cork?

TINA1984

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Even with the population difference, how many times a year will Cork fill the stadium? The double headers in Thurles don't seem to draw a full capacity.

Fancy that, a stadium in a small town over an hour away from any major population centre doesn't sell out.

Ren2k7

munstermagic11 wrote: »

A 40k stadium as an alternative to Musgrave Park wouldn't be great. It wouldn't be like Edinburgh playing in Murrayfield (they finally looking to get out of there), but 8-10k in a 40k stadium would seriously hurt the atmosphere.

The issue of "atmosphere" is a red herring. For smaller matches Munster can continue playing at Thomond while for games with larger attendances like European matches they can play in a multi-use PUC. This is no different than what Leinster does where it typically uses the RDS but larger matches at the Aviva.

Besides which would you rather; sit in a comfortable, covered all seater with modern facilities or one of three cold, damp, ****ty stadia that looks like something from the third world? I know which one I'd choose.

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Each county in Munster requires their own 'county stadium'. But the upkeep of these 40k+ stadiums is far more expensive now than in the past. Ideally the province would have just one excellent 45-50k stadium (meeting EUFA requirements) for all of these Provincial Championship games to be played in, but I can never see the county boards coming together and agreeing on this. Sharing the expense of building such a stadium would be in the best interests of all.

Quite, which is why PUC is also home to many Munster finals. Having one stadium being used by many codes, with funding from different partners is the best way of utilising limited resources. We don't have money to be blowing on three different stadia in each city so it's best to pool resources. How many millions were threw at upgrading Musgrave Park and Turners Cross that could have been better spent on a single municipal stadium for the city?

Ren2k7

namloc1980 wrote: »

Across AmericaAmerica many stadiums have been replaced by sport specific stadiums. The Rivers in Pittsburgh replaced by seperate NFL and Baseball stadiums. Same in St Louis, Cincinnati, Cleveland among many others. In Turin Juventus built a new soccer specific stadium and left the municipal stadium. In Munich the Olympic stadium replaced by soccer specific stadium etc. etc. Again who would use a municipal stadium in Cork?

Are you really comparing Cork, a city of 120,000 with world cities measured in the millions?! :eek: If Cork had a population of over a million then your point might be valid. But for a city of Cork's size it's insane to have three stadia all competing for resources.

namloc1980

Ren2k7 wrote: »

The issue of "atmosphere" is a red herring. For smaller matches Munster can continue playing at Thomond while for games with larger attendances like European matches they can play in a multi-use PUC. This is no different than what Leinster does where it typically uses the RDS but larger matches at the Aviva.

Besides which would you rather; sit in a comfortable, covered all seater with modern facilities or one of three cold, damp, ****ty stadia that looks like something from the third world? I know which one I'd choose.



Quite, which is why PUC is also home to many Munster finals. Having one stadium being used by many codes, with funding from different partners is the best way of utilising limited resources. We don't have money to be blowing on three different stadia in each city so it's best to pool resources. How many millions were threw at upgrading Musgrave Park and Turners Cross that could have been better spent on a single municipal stadium for the city?

Cork City wouldn't use aa large 40k seater stadium in their wildest dreams. A crowd of 3,000 would be utterly lost in such a place. Not to mention the vast difference in pitch sizes and it would be a complete farce. I don't understand the obsession with trying to do a one size fits all approach when quite clearly soccer, GAA and rugby have very different requirements in Cork.

namloc1980

Ren2k7 wrote: »

Are you really comparing Cork, a city of 120,000 with world cities measured in the millions?! :eek: If Cork had a population of over a million then your point might be valid. But for a city of Cork's size it's insane to have three stadia all competing for resources.

No you're the one comparing. The point is municipal stadiums are lovely in theory but rubbish in practice. They make to many compromises and in the end suit nobody. GAA, soccer and rugby have different needs in Cork and a one size fits all approach is crazy tbh.

BTW taking the population of the cities proper as you have done with Cork, St Louis is 300k, so is Pittsburgh and Cincinnati and Cleveland 400k.Hardly in the "millions".

SpaceTime

The choices are :

3 or 4 rubbishy stadia
Or one decent one.

Both are compromises by the nature that it's a metropolitan area of about 300,000 with a catchment of at most a million.

I'd still think a decent mulitpurpose facility with maybe a couple of smaller playing fields next to it and other sports stuff is FAR better than.

You could easily have a really nice sports complex on the edge of the city that would be a major economic asset bringing in major events and gigs without annoying anyone. It would have big benefits for the city in terms of bringing in tourists from other parts of Ireland and even British tourists if the gigs are good enough.

You're talking a 10 min drive from the city not vast distances it on the edge of the M25 in London.

Lots and lots of French cities of similar size to Cork have this setup and it works extremely well.

You've also usually got suburban / town municipal sports facilities which are typically shared with the local highschool. It means small local stadia, tennis, swimming pools etc etc etc. maybe on the scale of say UCCs mardyke arena in each suburb.

Parochialism is why ireland and in fighting between vested interests and no ability to see the big picture is why Ireland will never have anything like this.

KCAccidental

When was the last time anyone here was out at Turners' Cross? Nothing rubbish about it. Probably the best stadium in the City going by the facilities.

namloc1980

SpaceTime wrote: »

The choices are :

3 or 4 rubbishy stadia
Or one decent one.

Both are compromises by the nature that it's a metropolitan area of about 300,000 with a catchment of at most a million.

I'd still think a decent mulitpurpose facility with maybe a couple of smaller playing fields next to it and other sports stuff is FAR better than.

You could easily have a really nice sports complex on the edge of the city that would be a major economic asset bringing in major events and gigs without annoying anyone. It would have big benefits for the city in terms of bringing in tourists from other parts of Ireland and even British tourists if the gigs are good enough.

You're talking a 10 min drive from the city not vast distances it on the edge of the M25 in London.

Lots and lots of French cities of similar size to Cork have this setup and it works extremely well.

You've also usually got suburban / town municipal sports facilities which are typically shared with the local highschool. It means small local stadia, tennis, swimming pools etc etc etc. maybe on the scale of say UCCs mardyke arena in each suburb.

Parochialism is why ireland and in fighting between vested interests and no ability to see the big picture is why Ireland will never have anything like this.

I'd prefer to go to Turner's Cross to see CCFC play every day of the week than to a soulless 40k stadium with the soccer pitch lost in the enormous GAA field. No question.

Ren2k7

namloc1980 wrote: »

Cork City wouldn't use aa large 40k seater stadium in their wildest dreams.

And yet the Munster GAA are building one anyway. Funny that. Do I need to remind you of attendances for Munster draws? Over 30,000 squeezed into Fitzgerald Stadium yesterday in the lashing rain to watch Cork play Kerry in the Munster final.

namloc1980 wrote: »

A crowd of 3,000 would be utterly lost in such a place.

Large GAA facilities also play host to small fixtures and yet no one suggests moving such games to smaller grounds.

namloc1980 wrote: »

Not to mention the vast difference in pitch sizes and it would be a complete farce. I don't understand the obsession with trying to do a one size fits all approach when quite clearly soccer, GAA and rugby have very different requirements in Cork.

It's never a problem in many other countries who share grounds with different codes. On the continent it's common for soccer to be played in stadia with athletic tracks:


Olympiastadion, Berlin


Stadio Olimpico, Rome

Again multi-use sports stadia are quite common across the world and make sense financially.

Ren2k7

namloc1980 wrote: »

I'd prefer to go to Turner's Cross to see CCFC play every day of the week than to a soulless 40k stadium with the soccer pitch lost in the enormous GAA field. No question.

It's backwards attitudes like that which results in three half arsed grounds being developed instead of one superb, high class venue.