Pairc Ui Chaoimh re-development

johnnyryan89

namloc1980 wrote: »

What you're forgetting is that it would require a rule change at GAA Congress to allow stadiums to be used for competing sports. Croke Park was opened to the FAI and IRFU during the Lansdowne Road redevelopment but once the Aviva was complete that arrangement ended and the stadium was closed again. The GAA stadiums​ opening for the World Cup 2023 bid is specifically for that tournament only. I can see quite a few counties objecting to Cork using PUC for other competing sports. Doubt it would ever pass Congress

What they are also forgetting is it's the EPCR who decide where the semi finals are played and not Munster. The EPCR also keep all money made from ticket sales from the semi final I think and they're not gonna choose a stadium with a smaller capacity and poorer facilities compared to the Aviva just because it's easier for some Munster fans to get to Cork.

namloc1980

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

What they are also forgetting is it's the EPCR who decide where the semi finals are played and not Munster. The EPCR also keep all money made from ticket sales from the semi final I think and they're not gonna choose a stadium with a smaller capacity and poorer facilities compared to the Aviva just because it's easier for some Munster fans to get to Cork.

Thanks for the info. In that case it's definitely a non-runner.

clerk

namloc1980 wrote: »

What you're forgetting is that it would require a rule change at GAA Congress to allow stadiums to be used for competing sports. Croke Park was opened to the FAI and IRFU during the Lansdowne Road redevelopment but once the Aviva was complete that arrangement ended and the stadium was closed again. The GAA stadiums​ opening for the World Cup 2023 bid is specifically for that tournament only. I can see quite a few counties objecting to Cork using PUC for other competing sports. Doubt it would ever pass Congress

Good point, do you think Cork GAA would support the motion.

mart 23

Hi what is the seating capacity of the new PUC. Afaik Aviva has 51k seating GG Limk has 24k and Thurles 26k

Joey Jo-Jo Junior

mart 23 wrote: »

Hi what is the seating capacity of the new PUC. Afaik Aviva has 51k seating GG Limk has 24k and Thurles 26k

21k seated between both stands. 24k standing in the terraces.

Vinnie222

Covered seating for 21,000 spectators
Terrace capacity for 24,00 spectators

cork_south

Pics from the Quarry today.

cork_south

2nd pic

Mumha

namloc1980 wrote: »

What you're forgetting is that it would require a rule change at GAA Congress to allow stadiums to be used for competing sports.

No one is arguing otherwise.

namloc1980 wrote: »

Croke Park was opened to the FAI and IRFU during the Lansdowne Road redevelopment but once the Aviva was complete that arrangement ended and the stadium was closed again.

You are completely wrong on that. 17 April 2010 the GAA voted to keep Croke Park open after the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road.

This is from the GAA Rule Book

67
5.1 U ses of Property
(a) All property including grounds, Club Houses, Halls,
Dressing Rooms and Handball Alleys owned or
controlled by units of the Association shall be used
only for the purpose of or in connection with the
playing of the Games controlled by the Association,
and for such other purposes not in conflict with
the Aims and Objects of the Association, that may
be sanctioned from time to time by the Central
Council.
(b) Grounds controlled by Association units shall not
be used or permitted to be used, for Horse Racing,
Greyhound Racing, or for Field Games others than
those sanctioned by Central Council.

(Notes:

(1) Central Council shall have the power to authorise the use of Croke Park for games other than those controlled by the Association.

namloc1980 wrote: »

The GAA stadiums​ opening for the World Cup 2023 bid is specifically for that tournament only. I can see quite a few counties objecting to Cork using PUC for other competing sports. Doubt it would ever pass Congress

(2) Central Council shall have the power to authorise the use of Croke Park and other Stadia for games in the Rugby World Cup 2023 or 2027, if this Tournament is staged in Ireland.)

Who would have thought they'd have passed the 2005 motion, or again in 2010 (after Lansdowne was completed & CP closed) ? It won't be just PUC, I could see the exclusion rule just being simply deleted. My kid's GAA club rent out their all weather pitch to the local soccer club, and anecdotally I'm hearing that many other GAA clubs do the same. People are a lot more open than you give them credit for.

Mumha

cork_south wrote: »

2nd pic

Looks great.

lbj666

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

What they are also forgetting is it's the EPCR who decide where the semi finals are played and not Munster. The EPCR also keep all money made from ticket sales from the semi final I think and they're not gonna choose a stadium with a smaller capacity and poorer facilities compared to the Aviva just because it's easier for some Munster fans to get to Cork.

I posted up a few months back , shooting down the idea of munster ever playing a Semi final in PuiC over the Aviva for those very reasons.

But EPRC are thinking outside the box a bit lately with announcing Newcastle and Bilbao as final venues in the next few years, they were also looking into Parkhead instead of Murrayfield for a semi final this year should Edinburgh have gotten there. So they have been doing a few, make your best offer approaches to non traditional rugby grounds.

That said the Aviva would provide significantly more match day revenue over PUiC, so PUiC would have to make a bargain bin offer to host the game.

The other thing is would EPRC want a 2/3 uncovered , half seated stadium to showcase one of their biggest games of the year ???

kcb

lbj666 wrote: »

The other thing is would EPRC want a 2/3 uncovered , half seated stadium to showcase one of their biggest games of the year ???

This!

And we're coming back around to the unfortunate reality of this 'new' stadium.

It might look shiny compared to that Soviet monstrocity that was there before, but it's miles behind hundreds of other stadiums in Europe in terms of seating, cover, facilities and general esthetics for TV (all around the ground).

Shedite27

Don't worry lads, there's 100 more reasons why EPRC would never happen in PUC

mire

cork_south wrote: »

2nd pic

Great photos. Imagine the impact of an attractive, well designed landmark stadium in that urban landscape; it would have been something iconic for Cork. What I see instead looks like a cheap office building from a business park. Shame.

marvin80

kcb wrote: »

This!

And we're coming back around to the unfortunate reality of this 'new' stadium.

It might look shiny compared to that Soviet monstrocity that was there before, but it's miles behind hundreds of other stadiums in Europe in terms of seating, cover, facilities and general esthetics for TV (all around the ground).

Disappointed with the stadium as well - looks like more of a modern upgarde from the old PUC but nothing spectacular.

namloc1980

Mumha wrote: »

No one is arguing otherwise.



You are completely wrong on that. 17 April 2010 the GAA voted to keep Croke Park open after the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road.

This is from the GAA Rule Book

67
5.1 U ses of Property
(a) All property including grounds, Club Houses, Halls,
Dressing Rooms and Handball Alleys owned or
controlled by units of the Association shall be used
only for the purpose of or in connection with the
playing of the Games controlled by the Association,
and for such other purposes not in conflict with
the Aims and Objects of the Association, that may
be sanctioned from time to time by the Central
Council.
(b) Grounds controlled by Association units shall not
be used or permitted to be used, for Horse Racing,
Greyhound Racing, or for Field Games others than
those sanctioned by Central Council.

(Notes:

(1) Central Council shall have the power to authorise the use of Croke Park for games other than those controlled by the Association.




(2) Central Council shall have the power to authorise the use of Croke Park and other Stadia for games in the Rugby World Cup 2023 or 2027, if this Tournament is staged in Ireland.)

Who would have thought they'd have passed the 2005 motion, or again in 2010 (after Lansdowne was completed & CP closed) ? It won't be just PUC, I could see the exclusion rule just being simply deleted. My kid's GAA club rent out their all weather pitch to the local soccer club, and anecdotally I'm hearing that many other GAA clubs do the same. People are a lot more open than you give them credit for.

Question: How many times since 2010 has Croke Park been used for rugby/soccer?

Why would Waterford or Clare for instance vote in favour of opening stadiums when they themselves wouldn't benefit but the likes of Cork could make money? Would make no sense.

In any case there is no reason for Munster to use PUC. They have their own stadium. And a speculated Champions Cup game is just fantasy. PUC is not a decent stadium. It'll be alright by Irish standards, but compared to literally hundreds of stadiums in Europe it just won't compare.

Mumha

namloc1980 wrote: »

Question: How many times since 2010 has Croke Park been used for rugby/soccer?

Zero, but not because the GAA haven't made it available. In the IRFU's case (probably the FAI as well but I can't stand over that), they made a commitment to play all senior internationals in the Aviva for the 10 year life of the sponsorship.

namloc1980 wrote: »

Why would Waterford or Clare for instance vote in favour of opening stadiums when they themselves wouldn't benefit but the likes of Cork could make money? Would make no sense.

I believe the next move could well be to just delete the rule, allowing clubs to rent out their facilities, so all would benefit. I was surprised to find out recently that the no facilities rule only came in as a result of the Ban going in 1971, as a sop to those who were wavering on the Ban. This is something that would benefit all counties. BTW, Noel Roche in Clare was a long time advocate of opening up.

namloc1980 wrote: »

In any case there is no reason for Munster to use PUC. They have their own stadium. And a speculated Champions Cup game is just fantasy. PUC is not a decent stadium. It'll be alright by Irish standards, but compared to literally hundreds of stadiums in Europe it just won't compare.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I can see huge benefits for Cork GAA, Munster Rugby and Cork City. Getting 45,000 into a ground rather than 26,000 including a premium level of 2,000 makes sense too. If the numbers work for all parties, it will happen. The GAA made 37 million out of opening Croke Park, and the GAA world didn't fall apart.

namloc1980

Mumha wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree. I can see huge benefits for Cork GAA, Munster Rugby and Cork City. Getting 45,000 into a ground rather than 26,000 including a premium level of 2,000 makes sense too. If the numbers work for all parties, it will happen. The GAA made 37 million out of opening Croke Park, and the GAA world didn't fall apart.

But Munster have their own stadium. Makes no sense that they would use one that they'd have to rent out when they have season ticket holders in Limerick. Also for most games Munster simply wouldn't attract 45k people.

As for Cork City, they certainly don't need it. Turner's Cross is brilliant for them and has a great atmosphere. Imagine that versus going to a massive three quarters empty souless PUC. Would make zero sense - unless they got a massive European game but that'd be once in a blue moon stuff.

Mumha

namloc1980 wrote: »

But Munster have their own stadium. Makes no sense that they would use one that they'd have to rent out when they have season ticket holders in Limerick. Also for most games Munster simply wouldn't attract 45k people.

As for Cork City, they certainly don't need it. Turner's Cross is brilliant for them and has a great atmosphere. Imagine that versus going to a massive three quarters empty souless PUC. Would make zero sense - unless they got a massive European game but that'd be once in a blue moon stuff.

Actually, Munster have two stadiums. There are games that they would attract 45k, QFs, an NZ/Australia tour match, or if they were drawn against one of the big teams in their Euro group. You wouldn't be doing it every week, obv.

It's surprising that you once again say "it makes no sense", when TP has a 26,000 capacity, while PUC will have a 45,000 capacity, with a large Premium level of 2,000 capacity that can be used for corporate events. There's extra money to be made for all parties, in a city that has a proud tradition of Munster rugby, for an organisation that could do with extra funds.

PS : The Cork City I was talking about wasn't the soccer team but the City of Cork.

kcb

I think the whole Munster debate going on here is pointless. Munster get about 8-10,000 for regular Celtic League matches. They rarely need a 45,000 local stadium.

I think the lost opportunity here is that this new stadium is not up to spec for matches like Europa League finals, an Ireland football qualifier, an Ireland rugby test match.

Mumha

kcb wrote: »

I think the whole Munster debate going on here is pointless. Munster get about 8-10,000 for regular Celtic League matches. They rarely need a 45,000 local stadium.

I think the lost opportunity here is that this new stadium is not up to spec for matches like Europa League finals, an Ireland football qualifier, an Ireland rugby test match.

:rolleyes: It hasn't been the "Celtic League" for a long time. I'd bet you could have a Pro12 game against Leinster, as a Christmas or Easter fixture, which would be worth playing there.

kcb

You're missing the point completely. Munster are irrelevant in this discussion.

There's bigger events that are being missed out on than an ol Munstet game.

johnnyryan89

kcb wrote: »

I think the whole Munster debate going on here is pointless. Munster get about 8-10,000 for regular Celtic League matches. They rarely need a 45,000 local stadium.

I think the lost opportunity here is that this new stadium is not up to spec for matches like Europa League finals, an Ireland football qualifier, an Ireland rugby test match.

But why would the FAI or IRFU want to play a game in Cork when they own a shiny new stadium up in Dublin in the Aviva and would have costed way too much money to get it up to spec to host a Europa League final which Ireland might host once every 20 years.

PUC will serve the purpose of what it is always used for and that's hosting hurling and football games along with being selected for Rugby World Cup.

GavRedKing

kcb wrote: »

I think the whole Munster debate going on here is pointless. Munster get about 8-10,000 for regular Celtic League matches. They rarely need a 45,000 local stadium.

I think the lost opportunity here is that this new stadium is not up to spec for matches like Europa League finals, an Ireland football qualifier, an Ireland rugby test match.

Very rarely do the FAI allow senior mens internationals outside of the Aviva, apart from the Belarus game at Turners Cross last summer, which was a pre-Euros training camp in Cork, the FAI wont sanction a game outside of the Aviva for the foreseeable future.

It makes no sense in designing a stadium to be fit for all those pruposes because the market isnt there for it and the other organisations wouldnt use it anyway, what they should have done was complete it to be the best GAA stadium it could be and in that regard, for a new build, its failed, IMO.

Cape Clear

GavRedKing wrote: »

Very rarely do the FAI allow senior mens internationals outside of the Aviva, apart from the Belarus game at Turners Cross last summer, which was a pre-Euros training camp in Cork, the FAI wont sanction a game outside of the Aviva for the foreseeable future.

It makes no sense in designing a stadium to be fit for all those pruposes because the market isnt there for it and the other organisations wouldnt use it anyway, what they should have done was complete it to be the best GAA stadium it could be and in that regard, for a new build, its failed, IMO.

Despite the amount of public money and CCB getting prime land from City council for a song this will never be a municipal stadium.

kcb

How much is Stade De Frank costing again? Was it €70m?

There's a match on TV at the moment - new stadium in Instabul that looks very neat and tidy. cost $80m.

http://www.football-stadiums.co.uk/grounds/turkey/vodafone-arena/

AugustusMinimus

kcb wrote: »

How much is Stade De Frank costing again? Was it €70m?

There's a match on TV at the moment - new stadium in Instabul that looks very neat and tidy. cost $80m.

http://www.football-stadiums.co.uk/grounds/turkey/vodafone-arena/

It cost €80m because it's in Turkey.

kcb

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It cost €80m because it's in Turkey.

Ok!

How about these examples:

Leicester's King Power stadium (£53.8m)
Southampton's St Mary's Stadium (£48.1m).

All covered seating and fully enclosed.

johnnyryan89

kcb wrote: »

Ok!

How about these examples:

Leicester's King Power stadium (£53.8m)
Southampton's St Mary's Stadium (£48.1m).

All covered seating and fully enclosed.

King Power stadium was built in 2002 and St Mary's 2001.

CHealy

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

King Power stadium was built in 2002 and St Mary's 2001.

Also both are souless generic all seated bowls with absolutely no defining character. At the start of this PUiC process I was dissapointed they werent going to try build an entire new stadium but now that I see it, Im so glad they kept the terraces, not much better than being on the Blackrock End on Munster Final day in the sun.