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Pairc Ui Chaoimh re-development
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But cork GAA wanted a 45,000 capacity stadium, none of your examples come close to that.
Also all the dates you mentioned are project completion dates. When looking a costs online they're nearly all projected costs before the projects begin.
Cardiff City - 2007
MMArena - 2008
Stade du Hainaut - 2008
Also for arguments sake if you did build a 25,000 seater stadium, it has a much larger pitch to enclose, much more similar to a stadium that encloses an athletics track.
For a proper comparison you would need to find an example of this.0 -
snotboogie wrote: »Well a lot of that list are stadiums built in areas where money is no object, mostly for the Russian World Cup bid. In my opinion Cork needed a Municipal stadium of about 25,000 to 30,000, with Cork GAA as the main clients and Munster (should have been brought on board when they were redeveloping Musgrave Park and offered a Cork Municipal stadium as an alternative) and Cork City (you would be looking at a max of two games a year but if you look at the FAI Cup final attendance getting 15k+ in for a big event twice a year isn't unrealistic, especially for the first few years of the new stadium novelty) as secondary clients, used for the RWC and maybe even a decade or so down the line the FAI and IRFU could have got on board for a few games a year. Not to mention it would be a lot more compact and suitably sized for the largest music acts who would come to Cork. Now we have a white elephant that is too big for anything other than the handful of GAA championship games every year and is too big for 99% of concerts that will come to Cork.
For instance the Stade Océane in Le Harve, which was built in the last 5 years cost 100 million and looks in a completely different league to PUC. Same for the MMArena in Le Mans, cost 100 million and is in a different world to PUC. Stade du Hainaut only cost 75 million. These examples of far more impressive stadiums, built for a similar cost, with 10k-20k less attendance, (which is suitable for Cork) are found all over Europe; Ghelamco Arena in Gent built in 2013 cost 50 million and holds 20k, Allianz Stadion in Wein, built in 2016 holds 30k cost 53 million, Cardiff City Stadium built in 2009, cost £48 million and holds 35k. Brighton AMEX Stadium built 2011, holds 30k cost £100 million. The list goes on and on and on...
Wow all those stadiums look boring as fcuk, exact same template in each one - they're like the cookie cutters in the US from the 70s. You're also forgetting that a GAA stadium has a much larger physical footprint than a soccer stadium - much larger.
And bringing up the municipal bit again. That ship has sailed. Cork GAA, whether you like it or not, need a bigger stadium than 25k - otherwise no Munster finals or big home championship games again in Cork. Not really a runner.0 -
Your comment on the aesthetics are clearly biased, I don't know what to say if you think the new PUC is a more attractive stadium than the Allianz Stadion, which incidentally looks nothing like any US stadium from the 70's. A GAA pitch can be as little as 20 meters longer and 5 meters wider than a football pitch, it's not a "much larger physical footprint - much larger" and is hardly an insurmountable issue.namloc1980 wrote: »snotboogie wrote: »Well a lot of that list are stadiums built in areas where money is no object, mostly for the Russian World Cup bid. In my opinion Cork needed a Municipal stadium of about 25,000 to 30,000, with Cork GAA as the main clients and Munster (should have been brought on board when they were redeveloping Musgrave Park and offered a Cork Municipal stadium as an alternative) and Cork City (you would be looking at a max of two games a year but if you look at the FAI Cup final attendance getting 15k+ in for a big event twice a year isn't unrealistic, especially for the first few years of the new stadium novelty) as secondary clients, used for the RWC and maybe even a decade or so down the line the FAI and IRFU could have got on board for a few games a year. Not to mention it would be a lot more compact and suitably sized for the largest music acts who would come to Cork. Now we have a white elephant that is too big for anything other than the handful of GAA championship games every year and is too big for 99% of concerts that will come to Cork.
For instance the Stade Océane in Le Harve, which was built in the last 5 years cost 100 million and looks in a completely different league to PUC. Same for the MMArena in Le Mans, cost 100 million and is in a different world to PUC. Stade du Hainaut only cost 75 million. These examples of far more impressive stadiums, built for a similar cost, with 10k-20k less attendance, (which is suitable for Cork) are found all over Europe; Ghelamco Arena in Gent built in 2013 cost 50 million and holds 20k, Allianz Stadion in Wein, built in 2016 holds 30k cost 53 million, Cardiff City Stadium built in 2009, cost £48 million and holds 35k. Brighton AMEX Stadium built 2011, holds 30k cost £100 million. The list goes on and on and on...
Wow all those stadiums look boring as fcuk, exact same template in each one - they're like the cookie cutters in the US from the 70s. You're also forgetting that a GAA stadium has a much larger physical footprint than a soccer stadium - much larger.
And bringing up the municipal bit again. That ship has sailed. Cork GAA, whether you like it or not, need a bigger stadium than 25k - otherwise no Munster finals or big home championship games again in Cork. Not really a runner.
Of course that ship has sailed, the stadium is built! I'm just saying that it's an ugly white elephant, a barely upgraded design on your typical grim 80's GAA stadium. 30k would have worked for home championship games and would have probably allowed for big league games too.0 -
Neither Cork City nor Cork GAA needed a 45k capacity stadium. You don't spend 80 million on a stadium that will be at capacity somewhere between two and five times a year. If you can find more accurate final costs I'm happy to be corrected.ScrubsfanChris wrote: »But cork GAA wanted a 45,000 capacity stadium, none of your examples come close to that.
Also all the dates you mentioned are project completion dates. When looking a costs online they're nearly all projected costs before the projects begin.
Cardiff City - 2007
MMArena - 2008
Stade du Hainaut - 2008
Also for arguments sake if you did build a 25,000 seater stadium, it has a much larger pitch to enclose, much more similar to a stadium that encloses an athletics track.
For a proper comparison you would need to find an example of this.0 -
UEFA Category 4 stadium standard pitch dimension = 105m x 68m (7140 m2)snotboogie wrote: »Your comment on the aesthetics are clearly biased, I don't know what to say if you think the new PUC is a more attractive stadium than the?Allianz Stadion, which incidentally looks nothing like any US stadium from the 70's. A GAA pitch can be as little as 20 meters longer and 5 meters wider than a football pitch, it's not a "much larger physical footprint - much larger" and is hardly an insurmountable issue.
Of course that ship has sailed, the stadium is built! I'm just saying that it's an ugly white elephant, a barely upgraded design on your typical grim 80's GAA stadium. 30k would have worked for home championship games and would have probably allowed for big league games too.
Croke Park pitch dimensions = 144.5m x 88m (12716m2)
Increase in pitch area of 78%0 -
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I'd take PUC aesthetics over that cookie cutter stadium.snotboogie wrote: »Your comment on the aesthetics are clearly biased, I don't know what to say if you think the new PUC is a more attractive stadium than the Allianz Stadion,
PUC will be full in summer, have you ever been at a Munster Football or Hurling final? Roof all around is not what it's about!
I think the brief that the designers were given is quite different to what you are looking for.0 -
Also, I think you misunderstand what a "White Elephant" is. Nobody can predict if it's a White Elephant in advance. You'll have to wait to see what type of income it gets over a few years and what the maintenance costs are before anyone can tell if it's a white elephantsnotboogie wrote: »Of course that ship has sailed, the stadium is built! I'm just saying that it's an ugly white elephant, a barely upgraded design on your typical grim 80's GAA stadium. 30k would have worked for home championship games and would have probably allowed for big league games too.0 -
I'd take PUC aesthetics over that cookie cutter stadium.
PUC will be full in summer, have you ever been at a Munster Football or Hurling final? Roof all around is not what it's about!
I think the brief that the designers were given is quite different to what you are looking for.
Fully agree with the part in bold. I absolutely hate staying dry when i go to watch a match.0 -
A GAA pitch can be 130 metres by 80 metres = 10,400. There is no reason why PUC needs to have the same pitch size as Croke Park.ScrubsfanChris wrote: »
UEFA Category 4 stadium standard pitch dimension = 105m x 68m (7140 m2)snotboogie wrote: »Your comment on the aesthetics are clearly biased, I don't know what to say if you think the new PUC is a more attractive stadium than the?Allianz Stadion, which incidentally looks nothing like any US stadium from the 70's. A GAA pitch can be as little as 20 meters longer and 5 meters wider than a football pitch, it's not a "much larger physical footprint - much larger" and is hardly an insurmountable issue.
Of course that ship has sailed, the stadium is built! I'm just saying that it's an ugly white elephant, a barely upgraded design on your typical grim 80's GAA stadium. 30k would have worked for home championship games and would have probably allowed for big league games too.
Croke Park pitch dimensions = 144.5m x 88m (12716m2)
Increase in pitch area of 78%
Even if we take the minimum measurement of the standard pitch stated by UEFA (many are bigger and up to 120 metres by 90 metres), that is only a difference of 45%.
That is compared to your example with an athletics track which needs to be at least 176 metres by 92 meters, which dwarfs the dimensions of Croke Park, nevermind the lower standard size available to PUC. An extra few metres on the end of the pitch for GAA is not an insurmountable difference.0 -
irelandrover wrote: »Fully agree with the part in bold. I absolutely hate staying dry when i go to watch a match.
The Aviva and Turner's Cross are the only four sided covered stadiums in the country. Presume you only go to these venues for matches?0 -
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snotboogie wrote: »Your comment on the aesthetics are clearly biased, I don't know what to say if you think the new PUC is a more attractive stadium than the Allianz Stadion, which incidentally looks nothing like any US stadium from the 70's. A GAA pitch can be as little as 20 meters longer and 5 meters wider than a football pitch, it's not a "much larger physical footprint - much larger" and is hardly an insurmountable issue.
Of course that ship has sailed, the stadium is built! I'm just saying that it's an ugly white elephant, a barely upgraded design on your typical grim 80's GAA stadium. 30k would have worked for home championship games and would have probably allowed for big league games too.
It's a template stadium is the point. Can you show us stadiums in the range we're actually talking about - 45k. Constantly showing 20/30k stadiums is a waste of time.0 -
Not sure it needs to be fully roofed for it look well. Thomond park looks great and is only roofed on two sides.
The new PUC looks a bit like a greyhound track to me, but sure whatever does it for you. Wouldn't consider it a decent design in any shape or form, but different folks etc...0 -
Not sure it needs to be fully roofed for it look well. Thomond park looks great and is only roofed on two sides.
The new PUC looks a bit like a greyhound track to me, but sure whatever does it for you. Wouldn't consider it a decent design in any shape or form, but different folks etc...
Apparently it does have to be roofed all around and it must look like a generic eurostadium to look well. Actually think Thomond doesn't look that well at all - like a giant clamshell.0 -
Yes, but Croke Park should be the standard held to by all other major GAA ground in the country. I also very much doubt you find a professionally used football pitch that is 120 x 90, never mind "many"snotboogie wrote: »A GAA pitch can be 130 metres by 80 metres = 10,400. There is no reason why PUC needs to have the same pitch size as Croke Park.
Even if we take the minimum measurement of the standard pitch stated by UEFA (many are bigger and up to 120 metres by 90 metres), that is only a difference of 45%.?
That is compared to your example with an athletics track which needs to be at least 176 metres by 92 meters, which dwarfs the dimensions of Croke Park, nevermind the lower standard size available to PUC. An extra few metres on the end of the pitch for GAA is not an insurmountable difference.
An athletics track requires a "working area" of around 14500m2, not that much bigger.0 -
namloc1980 wrote: »Apparently it does have to be roofed all around and it must look like a generic eurostadium to look well. Actually think Thomond doesn't look that well at all - like a giant clamshell.
As I said , different folks etc. I think it looks great, but I think the new PUC looks poor, one half decent stand and then the rest of it..might havbe a different view when I get in there.
I hate the Aviva as another example , both inside and out. Its a really poor stadium imo. It looks like a bedpan from the outside and some of the seats I've had there have had really poor views ( both up high and down low).
you will never please everyone.0 -
What match ups is this stadium going to be more suitable for than existing stadiums? As far as I can see, the only hurling pairing this is more suitable for is waterford vs tipp, otherwise thurles is a more suitable venue. Otherwise it's just useful to facilitate home and away arrangements.
But for the hurling quarter finals, the likely teams in them are cork, waterford, Tipp, limerick, clare, kk, galway, dublin, wexford. Of those 9 counties thurles seems more convenient for 8 of them.
The waste of money on this stadium is shameful. The GAA needs to centralise infrastructure like this and have a national plan, rather than letting counties run off and develop unnecessary stadia.0 -
My entire point is that 45k is too big for Cork, it will be filled only a handful of times a year and only during the summer. 30k is perfectly big enough for Cork, I also included examples of 35k stadiums, which should be the absolute upper limit. I never said it had to be all roofed either, as the other poster said, Thomond is quite a nice stadium, far better looking than the new PUC and is not all roofed.namloc1980 wrote: »snotboogie wrote: »Your comment on the aesthetics are clearly biased, I don't know what to say if you think the new PUC is a more attractive stadium than the Allianz Stadion, which incidentally looks nothing like any US stadium from the 70's. A GAA pitch can be as little as 20 meters longer and 5 meters wider than a football pitch, it's not a "much larger physical footprint - much larger" and is hardly an insurmountable issue.
Of course that ship has sailed, the stadium is built! I'm just saying that it's an ugly white elephant, a barely upgraded design on your typical grim 80's GAA stadium. 30k would have worked for home championship games and would have probably allowed for big league games too.
It's a template stadium is the point. Can you show us stadiums in the range we're actually talking about - 45k. Constantly showing 20/30k stadiums is a waste of time.0 -
Please link to the dimensions of working area that size... Your standard athletics track needs at least 176mx92m http://datagenetics.com/blog/may12015/ScrubsfanChris wrote: »
Yes, but Croke Park should be the standard held to by all other major GAA ground in the country. I also very much doubt you find a professionally used football pitch that is 120 x 90, never mind "many"snotboogie wrote: »A GAA pitch can be 130 metres by 80 metres = 10,400. There is no reason why PUC needs to have the same pitch size as Croke Park.
Even if we take the minimum measurement of the standard pitch stated by UEFA (many are bigger and up to 120 metres by 90 metres), that is only a difference of 45%.?
That is compared to your example with an athletics track which needs to be at least 176 metres by 92 meters, which dwarfs the dimensions of Croke Park, nevermind the lower standard size available to PUC. An extra few metres on the end of the pitch for GAA is not an insurmountable difference.
An athletics track requires a "working area" of around 14500m2, not that much bigger.
Why does the pitch in PUC need to be the same size as Croke Park? Thats ridiculous0 -
Please link to the dimensions of working area that size... Your standard athletics track needs at least 176mx92m http://datagenetics.com/blog/may12015/ScrubsfanChris wrote: »
Yes, but Croke Park should be the standard held to by all other major GAA ground in the country. I also very much doubt you find a professionally used football pitch that is 120 x 90, never mind "many"snotboogie wrote: »A GAA pitch can be 130 metres by 80 metres = 10,400. There is no reason why PUC needs to have the same pitch size as Croke Park.
Even if we take the minimum measurement of the standard pitch stated by UEFA (many are bigger and up to 120 metres by 90 metres), that is only a difference of 45%.?
That is compared to your example with an athletics track which needs to be at least 176 metres by 92 meters, which dwarfs the dimensions of Croke Park, nevermind the lower standard size available to PUC. An extra few metres on the end of the pitch for GAA is not an insurmountable difference.
An athletics track requires a "working area" of around 14500m2, not that much bigger.0 -
The GAA's mantra (and I'm not backing it, just spelling it out), is that these prestige stadiums are for regular joes to aspire to play in. You have little Johnny down in Clonakilty who sees PUC at a Munster Final and either thinks "this is amazing, I want to play GAA" rather than Soccer/Rugby so they increase their player and fan base.The waste of money on this stadium is shameful. The GAA needs to centralise infrastructure like this and have a national plan, rather than letting counties run off and develop unnecessary stadia.
Similarly it's for the local players (the 99% of players that formed the CPA last year), these club or underage player never has a hope of making it to Croke Park or Thurlas, but can hope to play in PUC, be it for their club in county finals or school or whatever. I played in Sciath na Scoil in PUC in primary school, and it was the greatest day of my life back then.
All this leads to a more dedicated player base and fan base, which leads to ticket sales for intercounty, jersey sales etc.
That's the GAA's rationale for having a stadium in every county. Don't think of it in terms of Soccer/Rugby stadiums, and similarly don't think it has to be full 15 times a year for GAA to make their money back0 -
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snotboogie wrote: »My entire point is that 45k is too big for Cork, it will be filled only a handful of times a year and only during the summer. 30k is perfectly big enough for Cork, I also included examples of 35k stadiums, which should be the absolute upper limit. I never said it had to be all roofed either, as the other poster said, Thomond is quite a nice stadium, far better looking than the new PUC and is not all roofed.
The stadium is built. Talking about 25k sized stadiums is redundant at this stage.0 -
The GAA's mantra (and I'm not backing it, just spelling it out), is that these prestige stadiums are for regular joes to aspire to play in. You have little Johnny down in Clonakilty who sees PUC at a Munster Final and either thinks "this is amazing, I want to play GAA" rather than Soccer/Rugby so they increase their player and fan base.
Similarly it's for the local players (the 99% of players that formed the CPA last year), these club or underage player never has a hope of making it to Croke Park or Thurlas, but can hope to play in PUC, be it for their club in county finals or school or whatever. I played in Sciath na Scoil in PUC in primary school, and it was the greatest day of my life back then.
All this leads to a more dedicated player base and fan base, which leads to ticket sales for intercounty, jersey sales etc.
That's the GAA's rationale for having a stadium in every county. Don't think of it in terms of Soccer/Rugby stadiums, and similarly don't think it has to be full 15 times a year for GAA to make their money back
That's an utter nonsense reason to build this. They've spent €80m (that they've admitted) of taxpayer / GAA money and the result is that fans will be inconvenienced by having to travel further to matches to a location with worse parking facilities than Thurles.
As a taxpayer and a GAA member this project infuriates me. And every time I have to drive past Thurles on the way down to Cork to watch a game I'll be annoyed all over again.0 -
You're thinking in terms of a rectangle pitch and not an oval track.snotboogie wrote: »Please link to the dimensions of working area that size... Your standard athletics track needs at least 176mx92m?http://datagenetics.com/blog/may12015/
The working area of an oval 176 x 92 is 12700m2
I was working with 180m x 100m so actually over-estimated.
The same way UEFA want all stadiums to be the same pitch size, consistency and fairness.snotboogie wrote: »Why does the pitch in PUC need to be the same size as Croke Park? Thats ridiculous0 -
It's got nothing to do with Thurlas, it's for people who would have to drive to Cork anyway.That's an utter nonsense reason to build this. They've spent €80m (that they've admitted) of taxpayer / GAA money and the result is that fans will be inconvenienced by having to travel further to matches to a location with worse parking facilities than Thurles.
As a taxpayer and a GAA member this project infuriates me. And every time I have to drive past Thurles on the way down to Cork to watch a game I'll be annoyed all over again.0 -
Shedite27 wrote:It's got nothing to do with Thurlas, it's for people who would have to drive to Cork anyway.
They're talking about moving the quarter finals to cork this year from thurles. They'll look for excuses to put games there to justify it's existence when another stadium (typically thurles) would be more convenient. As I say, the only game this is the most suitable neutral venue for us Waterford vs tipp (better than limerick). Otherwise thurles is a more suitable venue.
What do you mean by people who would be driving to cork anyway? Sure people will dove wherever the match is.0 -
Read the link I included, a perfect oval 400 metre running track has an internal rectangle of 84m x 73m not enough to contain a regulation football pitch. Besides it is inconvenient and unusual to build a stadium around a running track style oval, look at the Olympic stadiums in Rio, London and Beijing.ScrubsfanChris wrote: »
You're thinking in terms of a rectangle pitch and not an oval track.snotboogie wrote: »Please link to the dimensions of working area that size... Your standard athletics track needs at least 176mx92m?http://datagenetics.com/blog/may12015/
The working area of an oval 176 x 92 is 12700m2
I was working with 180m x 100m so actually over-estimated.
Setting a regulation size field is up to the GAA, not Cork.
other, sometimes used format, for tracks is to make them slightly wider (to facilitate wider activities in the middle of the track). These tracks are made by combing end curves as a hybrid of two radii.0 -
Yes and it's terrible. That's all my point is. A stupid project which wasted tens of millions, on a dated stadium which will be filled as little as twice a yearnamloc1980 wrote: »snotboogie wrote: »My entire point is that 45k is too big for Cork, it will be filled only a handful of times a year and only during the summer. 30k is perfectly big enough for Cork, I also included examples of 35k stadiums, which should be the absolute upper limit. I never said it had to be all roofed either, as the other poster said, Thomond is quite a nice stadium, far better looking than the new PUC and is not all roofed.
The stadium is built. Talking about 25k sized stadiums is redundant at this stage.0 -
What are you on about now?snotboogie wrote: »Read the link I included, a perfect oval 400 metre running track has an internal rectangle of 84m x 73m not enough to contain a regulation football pitch. Besides it is inconvenient and unusual to build a stadium around a running track style oval, look at the Olympic stadiums in Rio, London and Beijing.?
Setting a regulation size field is up to the GAA, not Cork.?
other, sometimes used format, for tracks is to make them slightly wider (to facilitate wider activities in the middle of the track). These tracks are made by combing end curves as a hybrid of two radii.
I only used it as an example as to how large the the perimeter of the playing area needs to be for a GAA pitch. Making a seated stand 40m longer and 20m wider on all sides (which is the difference between a normal use GAA pitch and a football pitch) is more than just a few bob.
You can say "ah sure gaa pitches can be smaller and football pitches can be bigger" until the cows come home. The fact is these are the dimensions the organisations are using.
Until you can find a stadium up to your standards that has the space for a GAA playing surface, it will be very hard to do a direct comparison on costs.0 -
GAA isn't played outside of Ireland, finding a stadium with those exact dimensions is impossible. A football pitch is more comparable that an athletics track. You can have a championship standard GAA pitch that is only 45% larger in total area than your standard UEFA stadium. We obviously can't do a direct comparison but to say a football or rugby stadium can't be broadly compared to a GAA stadium is pedantic beyond belief. Find me website with the dimensions of the playing area in all stadiums built in the last 10 years and we can go deeper, otherwise neither of us have time to trawl the web for the inner dimensions of Tianhe Stadium and the like.ScrubsfanChris wrote: »
What are you on about now?snotboogie wrote: »Read the link I included, a perfect oval 400 metre running track has an internal rectangle of 84m x 73m not enough to contain a regulation football pitch. Besides it is inconvenient and unusual to build a stadium around a running track style oval, look at the Olympic stadiums in Rio, London and Beijing.?
Setting a regulation size field is up to the GAA, not Cork.?
other, sometimes used format, for tracks is to make them slightly wider (to facilitate wider activities in the middle of the track). These tracks are made by combing end curves as a hybrid of two radii.
I only used it as an example as to how large the the perimeter of the playing area needs to be for a GAA pitch. Making a seated stand 40m longer and 20m wider on all sides (which is the difference between a normal use GAA pitch and a football pitch) is more than just a few bob.
You can say "ah sure gaa pitches can be smaller and football pitches can be bigger" until the cows come home. The fact is these are the dimensions the organisations are using.
Until you can find a stadium up to your standards that has the space for a GAA playing surface, it will be very hard to do a direct comparison on costs.
Besides, the Allianz Stadion was built for 30 million euro less than PUC, that's before even accounting for the numerous ways that Cork GAA could have raised extra funds if they didn't have Byzantine rules about who can use their stadiums and what stadiums they could play in. Basic joined up thinking, like working with Munster rugby as a winter client for their otherwise derelict stadium while they themselves were renovating another stadium in the same city.0 -
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Thats very mature of you there.snotboogie wrote: »GAA isn't played outside of Ireland, finding a stadium with those exact dimensions is impossible. A football pitch is more comparable that an athletics track. You can have a championship standard GAA pitch that is only 45% larger in total area than your standard UEFA stadium. We obviously can't do a direct comparison but to say a football or rugby stadium can't be broadly compared to a GAA stadium is pedantic beyond belief. Find me website with the dimensions of the playing area in all stadiums built in the last 10 years and we can go deeper, otherwise neither of us have time to trawl the web for the inner dimensions of Tianhe Stadium and the like.
.
I'll stand by my assertion that its more comparable in size to the athletics layout and you're obviously not going to agree so I'm going to leave it at that, without the need for childish remarks.0
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