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Pairc Ui Chaoimh re-development
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snotboogie wrote: »GAA isn't played outside of Ireland, finding a stadium with those exact dimensions is impossible. A football pitch is more comparable that an athletics track. You can have a championship standard GAA pitch that is only 45% larger in total area than your standard UEFA stadium. We obviously can't do a direct comparison but to say a football or rugby stadium can't be broadly compared to a GAA stadium is pedantic beyond belief. Find me website with the dimensions of the playing area in all stadiums built in the last 10 years and we can go deeper, otherwise neither of us have time to trawl the web for the inner dimensions of Tianhe Stadium and the like.
Besides, the Allianz Stadion was built for 30 million euro less than PUC, that's before even accounting for the numerous ways that Cork GAA could have raised extra funds if they didn't have Byzantine rules about who can use their stadiums and what stadiums they could play in. Basic joined up thinking, like working with Munster rugby as a winter client for their otherwise derelict stadium while they themselves were renovating another stadium in the same city.
You can't compare a smaller stadium on a smaller footprint with much less capacity to PuC.
Munster have a stadium. No idea why you think they would become a "winter client" of Cork GAA.0 -
ScrubsfanChris wrote: »Thats very mature of you there.
I'll stand by my assertion that its more comparable in size to the athletics layout and you're obviously not going to agree so I'm going to leave it at that, without the need for childish remarks.
It's not, athletics stadium are built as an oval, usually for major events like the Olympic games or World Championships. You are not going to find many 30k-40k athletics stadiums as they are either used for global events or small track meets. Besides, athletics stadiums have a much bigger surface area between the stands than GAA stadiums
Football stadiums with a running track are obsolete. I'm making the most reasonable comparisons possible. You are asking for a comparison that doesn't exist.namloc1980 wrote: »You can't compare a smaller stadium on a smaller footprint with much less capacity to PuC.
Munster have a stadium. No idea why you think they would become a "winter client" of Cork GAA.
Munster were renovating Musgrave park around the same time. I don't know why you have put comas around winter client, it means they play there in the winter, when the stadium is unused.0 -
Munster don't need the use of another 20,000+ stadium. Musgrave park is more than adequate for the time being.snotboogie wrote: »Munster were renovating Musgrave park around the same time. I don't know why you have put comas around winter client, it means they play there in the winter, when the stadium is unused.
Olympic stadium London = 17,300m2snotboogie wrote: »Besides, athletics stadiums have a much bigger surface area between the stands than GAA stadiums
Croke park = 15,000m2
Yeah, much bigger0 -
ScrubsfanChris wrote: »Munster don't need the use of another 20,000+ stadium. Musgrave park is more than adequate for the time being.
Olympic stadium London = 17,300m2
Croke park = 15,000m2
Yeah, much bigger
What I am saying is that there were other options to raise money available if PUC was to be a municipal stadium, Munster could have sold the land in Musgrave instead of redevoping it and come into PUC as a secondary client, with the RWC bid this could have all been packaged. It's just one idea. Who knows what else could have been done with the likes of the IRFU if Cork Gaa were willing to talk.
Link for the Olympic stadium size?0 -
snotboogie wrote: »
Munster were renovating Musgrave park around the same time. I don't know why you have put comas around winter client, it means they play there in the winter, when the stadium is unused.
They have a stadium in Limerick. You know, Thomond Park. Zero need to become a winter client in a stadium they don't need.0 -
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namloc1980 wrote: »They have a stadium in Limerick. You know, Thomond Park. Zero need to become a winter client in a stadium they don't need.
They play 5-6 games a year in Cork and spent about 5 million doing up Musgrave Park. If they were to avail of PUC that money could have been put in there and they could have sold some of the ground in Musgrave Park. Maybe that would have got the IRFU more involved with the RWC bid coming up. Or maybe Munster and the IRFU would have balked, who knows since this conversation never happened and they never had the option. Maybe the FAI would have put something in if Cork City were allowed to use it once or twice a year, maybe they could have played the FAI cup finals there, maybe not but what we do know is that the conversation never happened.0 -
snotboogie wrote: »They play 5-6 games a year in Cork and spent about 5 million doing up Musgrave Park. If they were to avail of PUC that money could have been put in there and they could have sold some of the ground in Musgrave Park. Maybe that would have got the IRFU more involved with the RWC bid coming up. Or maybe Munster and the IRFU would have balked, who knows since this conversation never happened and they never had the option. Maybe the FAI would have put something in if Cork City were allowed to use it once or twice a year, maybe they could have played the FAI cup finals there, maybe not but what we do know is that the conversation never happened.
Munster already have a stadium. The games played in Cork attract 5/6k. Utter waste of everyone's time playing in a much larger stadium and forking out rent when they already have a perfectly useful stadium in Limerick. Cork rugby fans don't like it, but Munster are predominantly a Limerick based team.
And Cork City have an ideal stadium in Turner's Cross with a minimal rental arrangement with the MFA. FAI cup finals must be played in the Aviva per the 10 year ticket deals so zero chance they would be played in Cork. Municipal stadiums went out of fashion years ago because they end up suiting nobody as too many compromises have to be made.0 -
namloc1980 wrote: »Munster already have a stadium. The games played in Cork attract 5/6k. Utter waste of everyone's time playing in a much larger stadium and forking out rent when they already have a perfectly useful stadium in Limerick. Cork rugby fans don't like it, but Munster are predominantly a Limerick based team.
And Cork City have an ideal stadium in Turner's Cross with a minimal rental arrangement with the MFA. FAI cup finals must be played in the Aviva per the 10 year ticket deals so zero chance they would be played in Cork. Municipal stadiums went out of fashion years ago because they end up suiting nobody as too many compromises have to be made.
Munster could have saved 5 million and earned much more by selling the ground in Musgrave and bunking in on PUC. That could easily offset any rental payments and besides all of that could be renegotiated, from any logical perspective it's better than PUC sitting empty gathering dust 9 months of the year while Munster are spending millions on another stadium down the road that they will play in during the months PUC remains deralict. Every league game bar one played in Musgrave last year was at absolute capacity, the appetite is there in Cork
Im not saying that Cork City should move into PUC, I said max 2 games a year. The 10 year FAI ticket sales were a resounding failure and are unlikely to be continued, maybe it's something 7 years down the line, just a thought.0 -
snotboogie wrote: »Munster could have saved 5 million and earned much more by selling the ground in Musgrave and bunking in on PUC. That could easily offset any rental payments and besides all of that could be renegotiated, from any logical perspective it's better than PUC sitting empty gathering dust 9 months of the year while Munster are spending millions on another stadium down the road that they will play in during the months PUC remains deralict. Every league game bar one player in Musgrave last year was at absolute capacity, the appetite is there in Cork
Im not saying that Cork City should move into PUC, I said max 2 games a year. The 10 year FAI ticket sales were a resounding failure and are unlikely to be continued, maybe it's something 7 years down the line, just a thought.
Unless they get to Champions League groups Cork City don't need a 45k stadium for any game let alone 2 a season.
Also to even allow Munster or anyone play in PuC it would require a rule change at GAA Congress. I don't think that is anywhere on the cards. Political pressure opened up Croker while Lansdowne Rd was being redeveloped, and other venues for the RWC 2023 bid. I don't think there's an appetite in the GAA to the wholesale opening up of venues to all sports.0 -
Yes the 8000 Musgrave park average will look real good in PUC :rolleyes:
Munster playing in a gound they don't own is illogical considering the Thomond Park dept repayments.0 -
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namloc1980 wrote: »Unless they get to Champions League groups Cork City don't need a 45k stadium for any game let alone 2 a season.
Also to even allow Munster or anyone play in PuC it would require a rule change at GAA Congress. I don't think that is anywhere on the cards. Political pressure opened up Croker while Lansdowne Rd was being redeveloped, and other venues for the RWC 2023 bid. I don't think there's an appetite in the GAA to the wholesale opening up of venues to all sports.
As I have been saying since my first post 45k is too big. It should be at least 10k smaller. Cork City are not make or break, it's an idea that could have been used to capitalize on on the excitement if we built an actually impressive stadium. The national team were down for a friendly last year, why couldn't they do that again. A few ideas like that and you have doubled the usage of PUC.
Then don't give them any public money. Cork needed a municipal stadium, not an ugly €80 million 45k seater that will be used four times a year. If they GAA want to build their own private stadium, have at it but don't give them a penny of public money. Set a precedent, we wouldn't have missed out on much.....0 -
ScrubsfanChris wrote: »Yes the 8000 Musgrave park average will look real good in PUC :rolleyes:
Munster playing in a gound they don't own is illogical considering the Thomond Park dept repayments.
How many people should they be fitting into an 8k seater then? I'm not saying they should rent PUC, Munster should have been brought in as secondary clients before musgrave was developed and contributed something to the building of PUC. If they could have sold the land in Musgrave, it would have been an attractive proposal.0 -
Musgrave Park is owned by the Munster Branch and leased indefinitely to Dolphin and Sundays Well rugby clubs, so cannot be sold.snotboogie wrote: »How many people should they be fitting into an 8k seater then? I'm not saying they should rent PUC, Munster should have been brought in as secondary clients before musgrave was developed and contributed something to the building of PUC. If they could have sold the land in Musgrave, it would have been an attractive proposal.
Munster have no need to play in another stadium that big even it it was around 30,000, and when they do it will always be Aviva.0 -
It's the spending of our money is what annoys people. And ending up with a 1970's USSR monstrosity that will rarely be filled.
A 25,000 arena is what was needed. With a roof. And corporate facilities all around.
It would suit the odd Munster or Cork City game. Be filled for plenty of GAA games. And be suitable for Ireland friendlies.
Basically a stadium belonging to the people of Cork.0 -
It's the spending of our money is what annoys people. And ending up with a 1970's USSR monstrosity that will rarely be filled.
A 25,000 arena is what was needed. With a roof. And corporate facilities all around.
It would suit the odd Munster or Cork City game. Be filled for plenty of GAA games. And be suitable for Ireland friendlies.
Basically a stadium belonging to the people of Cork.
It would also mean hardly any home championship games for Cork and no Munster finals which defeats the whole purpose. Ironically with all the giving out about a 45k stadium, it's likely that a 25k stadium would be filled and used even less than a 45k stadium.0 -
Last year the Hurling final attracted 26,500 and the football final 23,000.0
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snotboogie wrote: »As I have been saying since my first post 45k is too big. It should be at least 10k smaller. Cork City are not make or break, it's an idea that could have been used to capitalize on on the excitement if we built an actually impressive stadium. The national team were down for a friendly last year, why couldn't they do that again. A few ideas like that and you have doubled the usage of PUC.
Then don't give them any public money. Cork needed a municipal stadium, not an ugly €80 million 45k seater that will be used four times a year. If they GAA want to build their own private stadium, have at it but don't give them a penny of public money. Set a precedent, we wouldn't have missed out on much.....
This makes absolutely no sense, Cork is the second biggest city in the Republic with a metro population of around 350 thousand, never mind the rest of the county and surrounding counties and your saying a 45k capacity stadium is too big, complete nonsense. Alot of the big GAA championship games would need atleast that capacity if not more tbh, never mind for concerts, rugby world cups games, a smaller capacity stadium just completely limit your options going forward.
The GAA are paying the majority of the cash for this stadium, without their cash we would have ended up with one of those ugly low capacity cardboard box stadiums you were blowing about earlier. If a game of hurling was played in one of those the ball would never get a chance to land on the pitch, completely unsuitable.
Take a look at the video on the PUC website, its now a proper stadium and looks really good (all for 70 - 80 million), those stadiums you showed earlier were horrific.0 -
Last year the Hurling final attracted 26,500 and the football final 23,000.
Yes let's build the capacity based on last year. In 2015 Hurling final attracted 43k and the football final 36k and 32k for the replay. So at a capacity of 25k just one of those 5 Munster finals could be played in Cork.0 -
namloc1980 wrote: »Yes let's build the capacity based on last year. In 2015 Hurling final attracted 43k and the football final 36k and 32k for the replay. So at a capacity of 25k just one of those 5 Munster finals could be played in Cork.
It sounds like a 25,000 seat arena isn't far off the mark so. Make it 30,000 and we're sorted. There will always be the odd game demand exceeds capacity.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The GAA have build the perfect legacy for Frank. Stuck in the dark ages.0 -
It sounds like a 25,000 seat arena isn't far off the mark so. Make it 30,000 and we're sorted. There will always be the odd game demand exceeds capacity.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The GAA have build the perfect legacy for Frank. Stuck in the dark ages.
30k and 3 of the 5 games couldn't be played there. And bare in mind last year were unusually low attendances. Tipp in the football final Vs Kerry would be unlikely to bring the same crowd as Cork and Kerry. And the hurling final in Limerick was a complete washout - lashed rain all day and many people stayed away.0 -
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You do realize that Musgrave is more than just one pitch? Dolphin and Sundays Well don't need to play their 2nd and 4th division AIL games in an 8,000 seater stadium. Who exactly do you think the "Munster branch" are? What do you think their main focus is? It can be sold and parts of the grounds there were looked at being sold before. I have no idea where you get the idea that it can't be sold???ScrubsfanChris wrote: »
Musgrave Park is owned by the Munster Branch and leased indefinitely to Dolphin and Sundays Well rugby clubs, so cannot be sold.snotboogie wrote: »How many people should they be fitting into an 8k seater then? I'm not saying they should rent PUC, Munster should have been brought in as secondary clients before musgrave was developed and contributed something to the building of PUC. If they could have sold the land in Musgrave, it would have been an attractive proposal.
Munster have no need to play in another stadium that big even it it was around 30,000, and when they do it will always be Aviva.
I never said that Munster needed another 30k seater. I said that it made more sense for them to bunk in with PUC, since at the time there were two outdated stadiums in Cork, both which were only used about 5 times a year, both that were going to be upgraded at the same time and it would have made far more sense for Cork GAA and Munster to work together rather than renovating separate stadiums.0 -
You are building an extra 15k seats to accommodate a few thousand people 3 times a year? How many games are there in the Aviva where they could sell double the tickets? I'd say at least 3 games a year. That isn't how you determine the size of a stadium.namloc1980 wrote: »It sounds like a 25,000 seat arena isn't far off the mark so. Make it 30,000 and we're sorted. There will always be the odd game demand exceeds capacity.
Anyway, it doesn't matter. The GAA have build the perfect legacy for Frank. Stuck in the dark ages.
30k and 3 of the 5 games couldn't be played there. And bare in mind last year were unusually low attendances. Tipp in the football final Vs Kerry would be unlikely to bring the same crowd as Cork and Kerry. And the hurling final in Limerick was a complete washout - lashed rain all day and many people stayed away.0 -
I've been going there for 20+ years so I think I know a bit.snotboogie wrote: »You do realize that Musgrave is more than just one pitch? Dolphin and Sundays Well don't need to play their 2nd and 4th division AIL games in an 8,000 seater stadium. Who exactly do you think the "Munster branch" are? What do you think their main focus is? It can be sold and parts of the grounds there were looked at being sold before. I have no idea where you get the idea that it can't be sold???
I never said that Munster needed another 30k seater. I said that it made more sense for them to bunk in with PUC, since at the time there were two outdated stadiums in Cork, both which were only used about 5 times a year, both that were going to be upgraded at the same time and it would have made far more sense for Cork GAA and Munster to work together rather than renovating separate stadiums.
Some parts of the ground were already sold actually.
Sundays Well and Dolphin play their senior games on the main pitch, schools finals take place there, cup finals and so on. The main pitch is in use more or less every second week if not more, where are these clubs going to play now? Their own pitches are on the limit of size regarding dimensions and mostly used for the vast underage sections.
The two clubs have a very extensive contract with the Munster branch to use Musgrave park, breaking this would work out great for no one.
I don't see why you're obsessed with this idea of Munster branch and Cork GAA consulting on a shared stadium. A design that suited both would be too small for Cork championship games and way too big for Munster Pro12 games. And yes there can only be pro12 games played in Cork as the 10 year premium ticket deal for Thomond Park dictates this. Also don't start talking about potential european home semi final as the last one Munster had before this year was 2009. Not very common. Do you also think Munster would get to play there and consult for pennies? There is still huge debt to pay off for Thomond Park, the Musgrave park redevelopment was somewhat paid for by selling some of the land over there.
You seem to have a very strong anti GAA agenda and every couple of hours come up with another thing you disagree about the project.0 -
namloc1980 wrote: »It would also mean hardly any home championship games for Cork and no Munster finals which defeats the whole purpose. Ironically with all the giving out about a 45k stadium, it's likely that a 25k stadium would be filled and used even less than a 45k stadium.
A covered municipal stadium with a capacity 25k - 30k with extensive corporate and conference facilities is what should have happened.
30k would be sufficient for most munster championship matches. And would be more than suitable for Cork City, Munster and the occasional Ireland games.
Everyone would benefit.
This PUC 'redevelopment' is just a slightly revamped version of the ancient useless bowl that was there.0 -
Theres no point arguing semantics at this stage, we're weeks away from the stadium being ready and signed off.
Theres a few things that will never happen down in PUC and they are, Munster rugby matches, Cork City matches and Irish Rugby/Soccer matches.
I'm one of those that think the main stand, while mightly impressive, is a total overkill and makes the rest of the ground look cheap and under developed because of the difference between the stands.
Again, a moot point, the stadium is done and I'm sure they'll sell it out a handful of times but if you take the Aviva for example, its a capacity just shy of 52k and it only sells out probably 4 times a year between Rugby and Soccer, I think 45k is a bit ambitious but every now and again they will fill it.
It wont matter much to me anyway, I dont support GAA games at any level so I wont be down there so I hope those that do go enjoy, its certainly a major upgrade over what was there before.0 -
Far from it, as I've mentioned before the South Stand is on par with anything you'll find at the Aviva. The north stand is also very similar to the upper levels in Thomond park and might actually have more amenities. These continue around underneath the City and Blackroock terraces.This PUC 'redevelopment' is just a slightly revamped version of the ancient useless bowl that was there.0 -
You are talking about division 2 and division 4 AIL teams and schools cup matches. There are literally hundreds of possible solutions to this issue, which could have been worked out if both sides were willing to cooperate. The bottom line is that we have a 45k capacity stadium, that may or may not get filled once a year, will get more than 20k people maybe 3-5 times a year and for 9 months of the calendar it will go unused.ScrubsfanChris wrote: »
I've been going there for 20+ years so I think I know a bit.snotboogie wrote: »You do realize that Musgrave is more than just one pitch? Dolphin and Sundays Well don't need to play their 2nd and 4th division AIL games in an 8,000 seater stadium. Who exactly do you think the "Munster branch" are? What do you think their main focus is? It can be sold and parts of the grounds there were looked at being sold before. I have no idea where you get the idea that it can't be sold???
I never said that Munster needed another 30k seater. I said that it made more sense for them to bunk in with PUC, since at the time there were two outdated stadiums in Cork, both which were only used about 5 times a year, both that were going to be upgraded at the same time and it would have made far more sense for Cork GAA and Munster to work together rather than renovating separate stadiums.
Some parts of the ground were already sold actually.
Sundays Well and Dolphin play their senior games on the main pitch, schools finals take place there, cup finals and so on. The main pitch is in use more or less every second week if not more, where are these clubs going to play now? Their own pitches are on the limit of size regarding dimensions and mostly used for the vast underage sections.
The two clubs have a very extensive contract with the Munster branch to use Musgrave park, breaking this would work out great for no one.
I don't see why you're obsessed with this idea of Munster branch and Cork GAA consulting on a shared stadium. A design that suited both would be too small for Cork championship games and way too big for Munster Pro12 games. And yes there can only be pro12 games played in Cork as the 10 year premium ticket deal for Thomond Park dictates this. Also don't start talking about potential european home semi final as the last one Munster had before this year was 2009. Not very common. Do you also think Munster would get to play there and consult for pennies? There is still huge debt to pay off for Thomond Park, the Musgrave park redevelopment was somewhat paid for by selling some of the land over there.
You seem to have a very strong anti GAA agenda and every couple of hours come up with another thing you disagree about the project.
As the attendances show, 30k would have been enough for Cork Championship games, maybe once or twice a year there would be a greater demand but that is the case in every practically built stadium in the world, sometimes demand outstrips supply, you don't build for the absolute maximum demand. Munster probably wouldn't sell out 5 games a year in Cork at 30k capacity, of course there would have been ways around it like moving some home derby games there but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Munster would be secondary clients using PUC as their secondary stadium. PUC should be a stadium for the people of Cork, the more it is used, the better, keeping it as a private GAA playground is criminal when public money is being used to build it. Who knows what happens in the future with the FAI and IRFU if you open it up, this should have been built to last for 30-50 years, 10 year tickets last for 10 years....0 -
You've just answer you're own question as to why Munster wouldn't play there.snotboogie wrote: »As the attendances show, 30k would have been enough for Cork Championship games, maybe once or twice a year there would be a greater demand but that is the case in every practically built stadium in the world, sometimes demand outstrips supply, you don't build for the absolute maximum demand. Munster probably wouldn't sell out 5 games a year in Cork at 30k capacity, of course there would have been ways around it like moving some home derby games there but at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Munster would be secondary clients using PUC as their secondary stadium. PUC should be a stadium for the people of Cork, the more it is used, the better, keeping it as a private GAA playground is criminal when public money is being used to build it. Who knows what happens in the future with the FAI and IRFU if you open it up, this should have been built to last for 30-50 years, 10 year tickets last for 10 years....
And again, 10 year ticket deal, all inter-pros are to be played in Thomond. Also until last season numbers for munster games were falling year on year so the thought of playing somewhere like PUC even if it was 30k, for any match was inconceivable.
We can make out a huge list of all the pros and cons for days.
You've got some valid points for the con section and I'm just trying to defend the project for the people that are happy with it.
I'll leave it here as this discussion could just go on and on.0 -
This makes absolutely no sense, Cork is the second biggest city in the Republic with a metro population of around 350 thousand, never mind the rest of the county and surrounding counties and your saying a 45k capacity stadium is too big, complete nonsense. Alot of the big GAA championship games would need atleast that capacity if not more tbh, never mind for concerts, rugby world cups games, a smaller capacity stadium just completely limit your options going forward.
The GAA are paying the majority of the cash for this stadium, without their cash we would have ended up with one of those ugly low capacity cardboard box stadiums you were blowing about earlier. If a game of hurling was played in one of those the ball would never get a chance to land on the pitch, completely unsuitable.
Take a look at the video on the PUC website, its now a proper stadium and looks really good (all for 70 - 80 million), those stadiums you showed earlier were horrific.
There just aren't enough GAA matches per year that require that size of a stadium and that Cork will be the most suitable venue for. As I say, the only Munster match not involving Cork that it will be the most suitable venue for is Waterford vs Tipp. Other than that, every second Cork hurling match against Tipp or Limerick and every second football match against Kerry will warrant the stadium. That's a game or two per year that the stadium will be suitable for and there are already other grounds available in other counties that would be fine to hold these matches anyway.
It will also get the hurling quarter finals this year at every other counties inconvenience.
It will host a few concerts probably which will help to cover it's cost and we might get the rugby world cup and if we do it'll host a couple of them. But these aren't enough to justify it's existence.
The fact that Cork has a big population and is the 3rd biggest city in Ireland is irrelevant. What is relevant is what advantage to the organisation this stadium will be for the cost of it. And all I can see is 1 Munster pairing that it will always be the most suitable venue for and 3 which it will be the most suitable pairing for every second meeting. And incredibly there's going to be a disadvantage of this in that hurling quarter finals are going to be played here at the inconvenience of most of the 8 out of the 9 potential counties involved.0 -
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ScrubsfanChris wrote: »Far from it, as I've mentioned before the South Stand is on par with anything you'll find at the Aviva. The north stand is also very similar to the upper levels in Thomond park and might actually have more amenities. These continue around underneath the City and Blackroock terraces.
Totally agree, South Stand is class, was surprised how big the north stand was when I visited, looks a lot smaller in some images.
Thomond park is a nice stadium with its two curved stands but that's about it, PUC is a big step up imo.
It seems fairly obvious at this stage a lot of the negativity about PUC from a very few vocal posters is just an anti GAA, County Board mentality imo. probably can't bare the fact that Frank & CB did a great job on this with fairly limited resources, sad if that's the case.0
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