Pairc Ui Chaoimh re-development

GavRedKing

If in 10 years time theyve taken even a fraction of the money back from conference facilities that it cost to build the main stand I'll be shocked.

Conference facilities is a very out of date way of clawing back money, especially for a place thats hard enough to access and when youve got similar facilities in the city and suburbs, coupled with most companies now have the ability to address large crwods in house, I cant see it being a money maker for the county board.

Now, I reckon they'll eventually make money from the STs and the premium seating in the main stand alright.

tototoe

GavRedKing wrote: »

Now, I reckon they'll eventually make money from the STs and the premium seating in the main stand alright.

I still.dont get this at all. Croke park maybe, Leinster and Munster rugby have loads of home games a year so a season ticket kind of makes sense, but how many top flight guaranteed games a year are you getting in puc for your money? County finals and club games are not going to sell too many season tickets..are they? Can't see it myself

Shedite27

GavRedKing wrote: »

If in 10 years time theyve taken even a fraction of the money back from conference facilities that it cost to build the main stand I'll be shocked.

Conference facilities is a very out of date way of clawing back money, especially for a place thats hard enough to access and when youve got similar facilities in the city and suburbs, coupled with most companies now have the ability to address large crwods in house, I cant see it being a money maker for the county board.

Every company in Dublin has had away days or conferences in Croke Park/Aviva, from a business perspective Cork needed something to compete.

ShamoBuc

Conference facilities are a great way of making money outside the gaa. They have been fairly busy with conferences since they opened and I've been told all was positive from 2 fellas that were at different conferences there, about 300 at both. The páirc is very easy to get to and from on a normal day, add 20,000 or more for a match and problems arise. It will make money each and every year and is a fantastic addition to the city.

Bacchus

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Conference facilities are a great way of making money outside the gaa. They have been fairly busy with conferences since they opened and I've been told all was positive from 2 fellas that were at different conferences there, about 300 at both. The páirc is very easy to get to and from on a normal day, add 20,000 or more for a match and problems arise. It will make money each and every year and is a fantastic addition to the city.

I was at a conference there last week and I thought it was a great setup. The same conference (hosted by a Cork institute) was held in Croke Park last year so it was great to have the facilities in Cork to have it locally this year. There was 300+ at it and it easily coped with those numbers.

Corcaigh84

I've been upstairs and downstairs in the South Stand so far and the views are great (county semi and final). My only gripe along with others is the noise the generators make for the lights, which can hopefully be sorted out.

To the posters whinging about terraces... I don't know where to start. Are ye actual GAA fans or what like? The new terraces are bigger, more comfortable, and safer. They are a huge addition to the atmosphere on match day. Be thankful we didn't go the way of our neighbors across the water due to their hooligans.

Speaking of atmosphere, cannot wait for the first packed house for a Cork match next year

namloc1980

Apparently next year's Munster SFC Final will take place on a Saturday night. Cork (assuming they get there) v Kerry on a Saturday night down the Pairc. Interesting.

yabadabado

thefloss wrote: »

I've been upstairs and downstairs in the South Stand so far and the views are great (county semi and final). My only gripe along with others is the noise the generators make for the lights, which can hopefully be sorted out.

To the posters whinging about terraces... I don't know where to start. Are ye actual GAA fans or what like? The new terraces are bigger, more comfortable, and safer. They are a huge addition to the atmosphere on match day. Be thankful we didn't go the way of our neighbors across the water due to their hooligans.

Speaking of atmosphere, cannot wait for the first packed house for a Cork match next year

Will that happen ?How likely is any game to be a sell out.

namloc1980

yabadabado wrote: »

Will that happen ?How likely is any game to be a sell out.

Pretty likely. Cork have two home games in the hurling next year and the Munster Football final. They'll get close to full houses.

Fabio

namloc1980 wrote: »

Honestly what do people expect from a €70m stadium. Genuinely curious what would you expect?

I don't care really but I'd have rathered they paid for it themselves rather than have, an essentially, private venture publicly funded.

namloc1980

Fabio wrote: »

I don't care really but I'd have rathered they paid for it themselves rather than have, an essentially, private venture publicly funded.

The Aviva got nearly €200m in state funding which is a IRFU/FAI venture. State assistance in large stadium projects is not unusual by any means. The Allianz Arena in Munich got massive investment from the Bavarian government. Most new stadiums built in the USA are state or tax funded to some degree.

snotboogie

namloc1980 wrote: »

The Aviva got nearly €200m in state funding which is a IRFU/FAI venture. State assistance in large stadium projects is not unusual by any means. The Allianz Arena in Munich got massive investment from the Bavarian government. Most new stadiums built in the USA are state or tax funded to some degree.

Do the IRFU, FAI or German FA have rules preventing "foreign games" from being played in their stadiums? There is a good chance the Aviva would never have been redeveloped had the FAI, GAA and IRFU got together, redoveloped Croke Park and shared it.....

namloc1980

snotboogie wrote: »

Do the IRFU, FAI or German FA have rules preventing "foreign games" from playing in their stadiums? There is a good chance the Aviva would never have been redeveloped had the FAI, GAA and IRFU got together and redoveloped Croke Park and shared it.....

I was responding to the suggestion that there shouldn't have been public funding. A one size fits all Croker would've been horrendous. Municipal stadiums are being phased out the world over because they compromise too much. However there is a borderline fetish on this thread for municipal stadiums for some strange reason.

Look at this. Looks ludicrous:

snotboogie

namloc1980 wrote: »

I was responding to the suggestion that there shouldn't have been public funding. A one size fits all Croker would've been horrendous. Municipal stadiums are being phased out the world over because they compromise too much. However there is a borderline fetish on this thread for municipal stadiums for some strange reason.

Where are they being phased out? Running tracks are being taken out of football stadiums because athletics doesn't get the crowds on a regular basis but where there is more than one popular field sport or indoor sport cities continue to share stadiums. It's economical.

The current Croke Park looks horrendous for rugby and football but if it was designed to share sports, with retractable stands (like the Rogers Centre in Toronto) it could have saved the state 200 million which it spent on a second stadium. Neither of the two stadiums have a home team who have regular season games there, both are filled less than 10 times a year.

namloc1980

snotboogie wrote: »

Where are they being phased out? Running tracks are being taken out of football stadiums because athletics doesn't get the crowds on a regular basis but where there is more than one popular field sport or indoor sport cities continue to share stadiums. It's economical.

The current Croke Park looks horrendous for rugby and football but if it was designed to share sports, with retractable stands (like the Rogers Centre in Toronto) it could have saved the state 200 million which it spent on a second stadium. Neither of the two stadiums have a home team who have regular season games there, both are filled less than 10 times a year.

Turin municipal stadium. Juventus built a soccer specific stadium. Munich Olympic Stadium - Bayern built a soccer specific stadium. Most municipal stadiums in the US have been torn down in favour of new separate NFL and baseball stadiums. Give me examples of where municipal stadiums are being built?

snotboogie

namloc1980 wrote: »

Turin municipal stadium. Juventus built a soccer specific stadium. Munich Olympic Stadium - Bayern built a soccer specific stadium. Most municipal stadiums in the US have been torn down in favour of new separate NFL and baseball stadiums. Give me examples of where municipal stadiums are being built?

Nobody is suggesting that a running track be built. I specifically mentioned these and we don't plan on holding an Olympics ever

The new national stadium in Tokyo, the Jakarta BMW stadium, the Perth stadium, the PI arena in Dhaka and the SK International Stadium are all under construction and are all explicitly called municipal stadiums. Most of the other major stadiums under construction, while not calling themselves municipal stadiums, will be used for more than one sport like the New LA Stadium which will have soccer games and Olympic events, the New LA soccer stadium will also be a home for US 7's and West Coast rugby. Other stadiums are being built that don't fall into either category either don't have another field sport with the attendance to justify sharing; like in Holland, Qatar, Russia and Belgium or are in markets where there is absolutely no need for further sharing with popular field sports like the new spurs stadium.

namloc1980

snotboogie wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting that a running track be built. I specifically mentioned these and we don't plan on holding an Olympics ever

The new national stadium in Tokyo, the Jakarta BMW stadium, the Perth stadium, the PI arena in Dhaka and the SK International Stadium are all under construction and are all explicitly called municipal stadiums. Most of the other major stadiums under construction, while not calling themselves municipal stadiums, will be used for more than one sport like the New LA Stadium which will have soccer games and Olympic events, the New LA soccer stadium will also be a home for US 7's and West Coast rugby. Other stadiums are being built that don't fall into either category either don't have another field sport with the attendance to justify sharing; like in Holland, Qatar, Russia and Belgium or are in markets where there is absolutely no need for further sharing with popular field sports like the new spurs stadium.

The Perth Stadium will be used for Cricket and Aussie rules. Both sports have the same field dimensions. The new stadium in Tokyo is going to be the Olympic stadium. Of course it will have a running track. Watching a football game in the new Jakarta Stadium would be great fun..... bring the binoculars. The point is having GAA, soccer and rugby all shoe horned into a single stadium would be farcical.

yabadabado

If they got a workable set up to add and remove rows of seating depending on the sport it would be OK.
Not sure there is a workable set up developed yet for the 4 sports needed for municipal stadium in Ireland .

snotboogie

namloc1980 wrote: »

snotboogie wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting that a running track be built. I specifically mentioned these and we don't plan on holding an Olympics ever

The new national stadium in Tokyo, the Jakarta BMW stadium, the Perth stadium, the PI arena in Dhaka and the SK International Stadium are all under construction and are all explicitly called municipal stadiums. Most of the other major stadiums under construction, while not calling themselves municipal stadiums, will be used for more than one sport like the New LA Stadium which will have soccer games and Olympic events, the New LA soccer stadium will also be a home for US 7's and West Coast rugby. Other stadiums are being built that don't fall into either category either don't have another field sport with the attendance to justify sharing; like in Holland, Qatar, Russia and Belgium or are in markets where there is absolutely no need for further sharing with popular field sports like the new spurs stadium.

The Perth Stadium will be used for Cricket and Aussie rules. Both  sports have the same field dimensions. The new stadium in Tokyo is going to be the Olympic stadium. Of course it will have a running track. Watching a football game in the new Jakarta Stadium would be great fun..... bring the binoculars. The point is having GAA, soccer and rugby all shoe horned into a single stadium would be farcical.

The Perth stadium is built to accommodate oval and rectangular pitches with the people constructing it stating; "one of the many features of the Stadium’s design is its ability to increase the seating capacity from 60,000 to 70,000 within the existing structure if required. This can be achieved by adding seats across all levels of the stadium. The front row of seating (in oval mode) is raised approximately 1.5m from ground level, which allows the drop in seats to be added and positioned on all four sides of the playing surface, providing an exceptional viewing experience for fans in rectangular mode. The drop in seats replicate the quality and viewing angles of the permanent seats. A 12 hour turnaround time is all that is required to install and/or remove the drop in seats"
Perth Stadium expandable to 70k

Going from Oval to rectangle is obviously far more challenging than going from a bigger rectangle to a smaller rectangle. This sort of accommodation could easily be built into municipal stadiums in Ireland and would save the Irish taxpayer and the Irish sporting bodies hundreds of millions. I don't see how it's farcical at all, in fact you haven't given one valid reason why it couldn't be done. The only reason it isn't done is because of the dated protectionist mentality of the Irish sporting organizations, particularly the GAA.

Cape Clear

thefloss wrote: »

I've been upstairs and downstairs in the South Stand so far and the views are great (county semi and final). My only gripe along with others is the noise the generators make for the lights, which can hopefully be sorted out.

To the posters whinging about terraces... I don't know where to start. Are ye actual GAA fans or what like? The new terraces are bigger, more comfortable, and safer. They are a huge addition to the atmosphere on match day. Be thankful we didn't go the way of our neighbors across the water due to their hooligans.

Speaking of atmosphere, cannot wait for the first packed house for a Cork match next year

Good to hear that they are safer. Unfortunately most terraces in the UK were unsafe and crumbling years before the Taylor report irrespective of hooligan elements.

namloc1980

snotboogie wrote: »

The Perth stadium is built to accommodate oval and rectangular pitches with the people constructing it stating; "one of the many features of the Stadium’s design is its ability to increase the seating capacity from 60,000 to 70,000 within the existing structure if required. This can be achieved by adding seats across all levels of the stadium. The front row of seating (in oval mode) is raised approximately 1.5m from ground level, which allows the drop in seats to be added and positioned on all four sides of the playing surface, providing an exceptional viewing experience for fans in rectangular mode. The drop in seats replicate the quality and viewing angles of the permanent seats. A 12 hour turnaround time is all that is required to install and/or remove the drop in seats"
Perth Stadium expandable to 70k

Going from Oval to rectangle is obviously far more challenging than going from a bigger rectangle to a smaller rectangle. This sort of accommodation could easily be built into municipal stadiums in Ireland and would save the Irish taxpayer and the Irish sporting bodies hundreds of millions. I don't see how it's farcical at all, in fact you haven't given one valid reason why it couldn't be done. The only reason it isn't done is because of the dated protectionist mentality of the Irish sporting organizations, particularly the GAA.

Because in rectangular mode it looks stupid. Look how far away the pitch is!



Municipal stadiums that try to accommodate everyone's needs end up being rubbish as it's simply not possible. The front rows are easily 30m from the edge of the pitch. Nice stadium for Cricket or Aussie Rules, crap for soccer and rugby.

ShamoBuc

namloc1980 wrote: »

Because in rectangular mode it looks stupid. Look how far away the pitch is.

Well it is in Perth!:pac:

namloc1980

ShamoBuc wrote: »

Well it is in Perth!:pac:

It also cost in the region of €1bn, almost entirely taxpayer funded. I don't know why PUC is being compared to these mega stadiums around the world with vast budgets. Or even Croker for that matter. Like for like comparisons would be more helpful. With only €30m in state aid PUC is pretty decent.

DEFTLEFTHAND

No offence or anything but the rebuild looks like something out of the 1970s.

namloc1980

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

No offence or anything but the rebuild looks like something out of the 1970s.

With a relatively small budget you get what you pay for. I'm sure stadium architects could have come come up with a fantastic design which would have been pointless as there was no budget for it. People are comparing it to stadiums around the world with massive budgets - the new Olympic Stadium in Tokyo was mentioned earlier which will cost in excess of €1.1bn once complete.

tototoe

namloc1980 wrote: »

With a relatively small budget you get what you pay for. I'm sure stadium architects could have come come up with a fantastic design which would have been pointless as there was no budget for it. People are comparing it to stadiums around the world with massive budgets - the new Olympic Stadium in Tokyo was mentioned earlier which will cost in excess of €1.1bn once complete.

They could have done a lot better with the budget they had. Does anyone actually know the final spend?

namloc1980

tototoe wrote: »

They could have done a lot better with the budget they had. Does anyone actually know the final spend?

What could they have done a lot better with €80m?

snotboogie

namloc1980 wrote: »

With a relatively small budget you get what you pay for. I'm sure stadium architects could have come come up with a fantastic design which would have been pointless as there was no budget for it. People are comparing it to stadiums around the world with massive budgets - the new Olympic Stadium in Tokyo was mentioned earlier which will cost in excess of €1.1bn once complete.

You specifically asked for municipal stadiums under construction in the context of a discussion that the entire concept of stadium sharing between different sports was out of date. It had nothing to do with a direct comparison of PUC to the Tokyo Olympic Stadium.

namloc1980 wrote: »

Because in rectangular mode it looks stupid. Look how far away the pitch is!



Municipal stadiums that try to accommodate everyone's needs end up being rubbish as it's simply not possible. The front rows are easily 30m from the edge of the pitch. Nice stadium for Cricket or Aussie Rules, crap for soccer and rugby.

I'm not sure what your point is? As I've said above this was being discussed in the context of municipal stadiums being outdated, I was pointing out that they are still being built after you specifically asked for municipal stadiums under construction.

If you are back to the point of it being impossible to create a municipal stadium with a good fan experience for GAA, rugby and soccer, I'm sure you are aware that in Perth they are going from a 180x150 oval to a 110x70 rectangle, this is obviously a much more difficult task than going from a 145x88 rectangle to a 106x68 rectangle. There are plenty examples of stadium shares between different sports working:

The Mercedes Benz Stadium in Atlanta, that was just finished in 2017, retracts seats by 20 metres for soccer games and then pulls the removable seating back out for American Football games:

https://www.google.ie/search?q=mercedes+benz+stadium+atlanta&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiSiJn4oaXXAhXICcAKHb7gCsEQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=662#imgrc=9KKavG5A81_yAM:



While there would need to be more retractable seating when converting from a GAA stadium to a soccer stadium, this is a much more comparable example than the giant oval to a soccer pitch.

Another example is the US Bank Stadium in Minneapolis, finished in 2016, this converts from a baseball stadium to a football stadium and provides a great fan experience for both sports:





There are countless examples of this working: the Rodgers Centre in Toronto, The Stade de France in Paris, the Saitama Arena in Tokyo, the Sapporo Dome in Japan, the Olympic Stadium in London...

I know your next point will be the expense of these stadiums but the costs for these is coming from the retractable roofs (which most modern stadiums have now) and other factors, not from their retractable stands. You can look at Saracens who installed removable stands in Barnet Copthall and the entire renovation was done on a far smaller budget than PUC (and included an Olympic swimming pool). I'm not saying that is greatest example of stadium architecture in the world but it doesn't need to cost hundreds of millions.

Ireland is probably the most ideal candidate in the world for municipal stadiums with retractable stands, our pitches sizes are the same shape and you would only need to bring in the stands by 10-15 metres on each side. We also don't have any sports team in the country who draw 30k+ ten times or more a year. Stadium sharing is an absolute no brainier here and I have no idea why people are so vehemently against it?

namloc1980

Because it costs a fortune. The examples being thrown around here are multi billion euro stadiums. Again these are completely incomparable to PUC with a budget of €80m - a fraction of these stadiums being touted as examples. A GAA pitch is significantly bigger than a soccer, rugby or NFL pitch. NFL and soccer are closer, with the soccer pitch being somewhat wider. What would a municipal stadium in Cork even try to cater for? Who would use it and what requirements would they all have?

The soccer pitch in the Perth Stadium looks lost in the big pitch and this €1bn stadium has moveable seating (and no retractable roof!). Show me a stadium for c.€80m that has these moveable stands and a pitch area that caters for vastly different requirements. That's the test. Not the BMW stadium in Atlanta that cost nearly $2bn.

Edit: The stadium in Minnesota looks rubbish for baseball. The Major League Minnesota Twins built their own baseball stadium and don't use this. It's used by a college team occasionally who attract c. 2,000 fans to their games. I bet the atmosphere with 2,000 people at those games in a vast empty arena is great!

snotboogie

namloc1980 wrote: »

Because it costs a fortune. The examples being thrown around here are multi billion euro stadiums. Again these are completely incomparable to PUC with a budget of €80m - a fraction of these stadiums being touted as examples. A GAA pitch is significantly bigger than a soccer, rugby or NFL pitch. NFL and soccer are closer, with the soccer pitch being somewhat wider. What would a municipal stadium in Cork even try to cater for? Who would use it and what requirements would they all have?

The soccer pitch in the Perth Stadium looks lost in the big pitch and this €1bn stadium has moveable seating (and no retractable roof!). Show me a stadium for c.€80m that has these moveable stands and a pitch area that caters for vastly different requirements. That's the test. Not the BMW stadium in Atlanta that cost nearly $2bn.

I understand the pitch sizes are different and I went to pains to point out that I did but GAA isn't played in front of big crowds outside of Ireland so your endless quest to find an exact example is fruitless.

I did list a stadium which was renovated with retractable stands for a fraction of the cost of PUC. It's an ugly stadium but it can be done. I've addressed all of the costs in my last post. Most new stadiums cost a lot of money, if you are asking for examples, they are going to be expensive. However it's not retractable stands that are driving the cost, Spurs' new ground is going to cost nearly a billion and has no retractable stands