Pairc Ui Chaoimh re-development

namloc1980

snotboogie wrote: »

I understand the pitch sizes are different and I went to pains to point out that I did but GAA isn't played in front of big crowds outside of Ireland so your endless quest to find an exact example is fruitless.

I did list a stadium which was renovated with retractable stands for a fraction of the cost of PUC. It's an ugly stadium but it can be done. I've addressed all of the costs in my last post. Most new stadiums cost a lot of money, if you are asking for examples, they are going to be expensive. However it's not retractable stands that are driving the cost, Spurs' new ground is going to cost nearly a billion and has no retractable stands

So are you saying that retractable stands can be done cheaply? You acknowledge GAA has unique requirements but are confident it could work but can't show any real examples. Fair enough. The evidence would suggest that you would need a significantly bigger budget than €80m to do as you suggest otherwise retractable stands would be a more common feature in stadiums.

Anyway you didn't answer, who would use a municipal stadium in Cork and what would each users needs be?

snotboogie

namloc1980 wrote: »

So are you saying that retractable stands can be done cheaply? You acknowledge GAA has unique requirements but are confident it could work but can't show any real examples. Fair enough. The evidence would suggest that you would need a significantly bigger budget than €80m to do as you suggest otherwise retractable stands would be a more common feature in stadiums.

Anyway you didn't answer, who would use a municipal stadium in Cork and what would each users needs be?

I've given you an example where they were done for cheap already

There is nothing especially difficult about the GAA requirements, converting an oval or baseball field or a running track to a rectangle is far more difficult. The only thing unique about the GAA requirements is that they would be much easier to meet than most other arenas in the world.

I don't understand what your concern is at this point, do you think this can't be done in a way that would keep fans close to the pitch? This discussion came about after you complained about public money being spent on the aviva, I jumped in because a joint stadium between the three organizations in Dublin makes perfect sense (both stadiums are chronically underused) and the GAA are the main reason this can't happen. Combined the renovation of Croke Park and the Aviva cost over $900 million, so comparisons to Atlanta and Perth are not ridiculous, especially since both of these stadiums were built a decade ago. Both of these stadiums will undergo significant upgrades again in our lifetime, it makes sense to plan ahead now, no public money should go to anymore major stadium projects in Ireland if any of our major sports are banned from them.

namloc1980

snotboogie wrote: »

I've given you an example where they were done for cheap already

There is nothing especially difficult about the GAA requirements, converting an oval or baseball field or a running track to a rectangle is far more difficult. The only thing unique about the GAA requirements is that they would be much easier to meet than most other arenas in the world.

I don't understand what your concern is at this point, do you think this can't be done in a way that would keep fans close to the pitch? This discussion came about after you complained about public money being spent on the aviva, I jumped in because a joint stadium between the three organizations in Dublin makes perfect sense (both stadiums are chronically underused) and the GAA are the main reason this can't happen. Combined the renovation of Croke Park and the Aviva cost over $900 million, so comparisons to Atlanta and Perth are not ridiculous, especially since both of these stadiums were built a decade ago. Both of these stadiums will undergo significant upgrades again in our lifetime, it makes sense to plan ahead now, no public money should go to anymore major stadium projects in Ireland if any of our major sports are banned from them.

You'll have to point out where I complained about the €200m for the Aviva, because I think you'll find I never did.

A single stadium in Dublin won't work. FAI/IRFU built a 50k capacity stadium because that's as much as they need. The GAA have a much bigger requirement with All-Ireland finals etc. FAI in particular rarely get full houses. Obsession with one size fits all is weird. Different sports have different needs, not just pitch size but capacity etc.

snotboogie

namloc1980 wrote: »

The Aviva got nearly €200m in state funding which is a IRFU/FAI venture. State assistance in large stadium projects is not unusual by any means. The Allianz Arena in Munich got massive investment from the Bavarian government. Most new stadiums built in the USA are state or tax funded to some degree.

namloc1980 wrote: »

You'll have to point out where I complained about the €200m for the Aviva, because I think you'll find I never did.

A single stadium in Dublin won't work. FAI/IRFU built a 50k capacity stadium because that's as much as they need. The GAA have a much bigger requirement with All-Ireland finals etc. FAI in particular rarely get full houses. Obsession with one size fits all is weird. Different sports have different needs, not just pitch size but capacity etc.

Ok brought up rather than complained my bad.

Croke Park sold out how many times last year? 5? And that's with the most successful Dublin team in memory, which is the best situation possible for crowds. 70-75k would be enough for the GAA and would make the quarter and semi final games not featuring Dublin have a much better atmosphere. 75k is selling out for every 6 nations game, bar maybe Italy. The big home qualifiers in football would sell out too. The FAI could do a ground share with Leinster for the smaller games, plenty of work arounds.

The "obsession" with one size fits all is a want from my end for better stadiums in this country for less public money. The main point is that both the Aviva and Croke Park lie empty for the vast majority of the year, it makes sense to get one great stadium. Building a $600 million stadium because Croke park would miss out on a few thousand fans four or five times a year is crazy. It's easy to dismiss this as done because they have both been built but this will come up again in our lifetimes

Shedite27

Lot of comparing apples with oranges here. Stadum is what it is. It's not changing. If people had concerns or thoughts they should have been raised at the planning stage, not on an anoymous forum after it's been built

j8wk2feszrnpao

Shedite27 wrote: »

If people had concerns or thoughts they should have been raised at the planning stage, not on an anoymous forum after it's been built

Eh? That’s the purpose of boards. It’s a forum for discussion and debate. Nobody is looking to make a change, just leave a comment with their view.

Shedite27

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Eh? That’s the purpose of boards. It’s a forum for discussion and debate. Nobody is looking to make a change, just leave a comment with their view.

Realistic comments are fine. This idea that we should have an Olympic standard stadium for €70m is just wasting everyone's time.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Shedite27 wrote: »

Realistic comments are fine. This idea that we should have an Olympic standard stadium for €70m is just wasting everyone's time.

I haven't seen that comment.
Personally, just a lick of red paint/seats would look so much better.

run_Forrest_run

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I haven't seen that comment.
Personally, just a lick of red paint/seats would look so much better.

the red seats point was covered, over time those seats would turn a faded red/pink colour.

munchkin_utd

Theres complaints that this isnt a multi use stadium, but can someone outline a plausible row of events or set of circumstances that might have led to this happening.
To have a multi use stadium you'd need it to be used by Soccer and Rugby too. Is that actually even something that was ever on the cards?

As I see it, Munster Rugby aka IRFU have a medium sized home stadium in Limerick that they are still paying off which suits the European cup and bigger Pro 12s games, and a smaller Musgrave Park in Cork for other games. IRFU have already a 50,000 seater stadium they are busily paying off debt on in Dublin which gets all national games, and is the big stadium for the odd provincial game where Thomond isnt big enough. I cant see where being involved in building a new 45000 seater in Cork works for the IRFU when they have stadia of all sizes already in place and debt being repaid.

The FAI are mired in debt with the Aviva and have little to no interest in bringing national games outside of Dublin anywhere in the short to medium term. They have no other large games apart from internationals, and even the domestic cup final only got 20,000 of an attendance last week. A 45000 seater stadium in Cork just makes no sense for them to be involved in co-developing a large stadium in Cork as they cannot supply games for it.
If anything, they should be having some of their smaller international games in a more suitable sized venue like Thomond park, but they dont! They stick to the stadium which they are trying to pay off.

Of course a municipal stadium is often built by a city and rented. But again, assuming that Cork city council took out a loan of 70million and built a municipal stadium, why would IRFU or FAI bring a game to Cork, and pay 500,000 to a million in rent, when they have the Aviva in Dublin that they can use for no extra charge and are still trying to repay the debt on.

So, if the only people in Cork who want and need a stadium in Cork are the GAA and the chances of any large Soccer or Rugby game being played outside the Aviva is slim to none, should Cork be denied money because the stadium is built to GAA spec ?

BTW, if I amn't mistaken even the GAA is contractually committed to hosting All Ireland semi finals in Croke Park which shows how difficult if not impossible it is to rob big games from an existing stadium arrangement.

j8wk2feszrnpao

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

the red seats point was covered, over time those seats would turn a faded red/pink colour.

Not all the seats, just replace the black/grey ones (which will probably fade as well and not look as distinctive) with red.
Yes over time they will fade (not an immediate/medium concern) but wear and tear would require maintenance anyway (which isn't exactly unusual for any stadium).
Given the long periods that the stadium won't be in use, restoration work would cause no disruption whatsoever.

If fading is a concern, then there's the option of using seat covers. You may have seen them at some sporting events when the stadium doesn't get full use, and can have advertising on them for income purposes.

It just seems a small thing that would make the stadium look a lot better and more distinctive as 'Cork'.

snotboogie

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Theres complaints that this isnt a multi use stadium, but can someone outline a plausible row of events or set of circumstances that might have led to this happening.
To have a multi use stadium you'd need it to be used by Soccer and Rugby too. Is that actually even something that was ever on the cards?

As I see it, Munster Rugby aka IRFU have a medium sized home stadium in Limerick that they are still paying off which suits the European cup and bigger Pro 12s games, and a smaller Musgrave Park in Cork for other games. IRFU have already a 50,000 seater stadium they are busily paying off debt on in Dublin which gets all national games, and is the big stadium for the odd provincial game where Thomond isnt big enough. I cant see where being involved in building a new 45000 seater in Cork works for the IRFU when they have stadia of all sizes already in place and debt being repaid.

The FAI are mired in debt with the Aviva and have little to no interest in bringing national games outside of Dublin anywhere in the short to medium term. They have no other large games apart from internationals, and even the domestic cup final only got 20,000 of an attendance last week. A 45000 seater stadium in Cork just makes no sense for them to be involved in co-developing a large stadium in Cork as they cannot supply games for it.
If anything, they should be having some of their smaller international games in a more suitable sized venue like Thomond park, but they dont! They stick to the stadium which they are trying to pay off.

Of course a municipal stadium is often built by a city and rented. But again, assuming that Cork city council took out a loan of 70million and built a municipal stadium, why would IRFU or FAI bring a game to Cork, and pay 500,000 to a million in rent, when they have the Aviva in Dublin that they can use for no extra charge and are still trying to repay the debt on.

So, if the only people in Cork who want and need a stadium in Cork are the GAA and the chances of any large Soccer or Rugby game being played outside the Aviva is slim to none, should Cork be denied money because the stadium is built to GAA spec ?

BTW, if I amn't mistaken even the GAA is contractually committed to hosting All Ireland semi finals in Croke Park which shows how difficult if not impossible it is to rob big games from an existing stadium arrangement.

This discussion was had in the context of public money going towards stadiums which then exclude sports which are in the public interest. The Irish sporting bodies and Irish government have wasted hundreds of millions of euro on stadiums because of Rule 42. Munster would not have needed to spend so much money if they had coordinated stadium shares with the GAA in Cork and Limerick. The obvious solution in 2005, when PUC, Thomond and Musgrave all needed upgrading, was for Munster and Cork GAA to work together on a ground share and redevelopment of PUC, where Munster could use it 4-5 times a year for the bigger games and for Munster themselves to do a much more modest upgrade of Thomond Park. They could then scale down Musgrave and possibly sell all or part of it off. Instead Munster have a stadium in Limerick that is too big for all but 4 or 5 of their games every season (25k) and a stadium in Cork that is too small for all of their games (8k). This season Munster's only sell outs have been in Musgrave Park. Similarly Pairc Ui Caoimh is also yet to sell out and would be lucky to sell out more than 3 times a year. So instead of one major and one minor stadium upgrade in Cork and Limerick we had two major and one minor stadium upgrades. Money thrown away over Rule 42. All of these stadiums will need to be upgraded again in our lifetime, maybe it's 20 or 30 years down the line but the government should put their foot down now and give no more funding to stadiums that outright ban sports in the public interest.

ScrubsfanChris

Should note, the attendance increased by atleast 40% for the Hurling, I wouldn't blame them :pac:

Ludo

Was watching a bit of this over the weekend and noticed that the terraces look ****E. They appear to be all covered in dark splotches or something. It makes it look really crap. There is a video earlier in the thread here ( https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104104974&postcount=1188 ) where they are all a nice uniform light concrete grey. It looks like a 20 year old stadium already.

Cape Clear

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Should note, the attendance increased by atleast 40% for the Hurling, I wouldn't blame them :pac:

Pitch doesn't look in great shape!

j8wk2feszrnpao

Cape Clear wrote: »

Pitch doesn't look in great shape!

Probably not a great winter for pitches in general.
From watching the game on TV, both ends of the stadium looked unfinished grey concrete eye sores.

Rooy

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Probably not a great winter for pitches in general.
From watching the game on TV, both ends of the stadium looked unfinished grey concrete eye sores.

Was down there for both matches Sunday evening , things of note for me :

Quite dark leaving once away from immediate stadium.

Grey seats really dull , red would have looked great under lights and given a better sense of being in Cork stadium.

Pitch did cut up badly , given that the pitch itself seem to be intact for most of development ,im not sure was there any improvements made to drainage at all.

Wouldnt mind seeing Hawkeye there at some stage.

Roger Hassenforder

Rooy wrote: »

Was down there for both matches Sunday evening , things of note for me :

Quite dark leaving once away from immediate stadium.
.

Bit of a dispute with the council over development contributions


https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/ed-sheeran-concert-risk-over-lighting-row-at-pairc-ui-chaoimh-466422.html

namloc1980

Rooy wrote: »

Was down there for both matches Sunday evening , things of note for me :

Quite dark leaving once away from immediate stadium.

Grey seats really dull , red would have looked great under lights and given a better sense of being in Cork stadium.

Pitch did cut up badly , given that the pitch itself seem to be intact for most of development ,im not sure was there any improvements made to drainage at all.

Wouldnt mind seeing Hawkeye there at some stage.

There was drainage installed and pumps but the pitch down there has always been crap. Perhaps being lower than the river next door is a fundamental issue that can't really be resolved.

The scoreboard was hard to see once it got dark. Could have done with being lit.

Lack of public lighting around the stadium and on the approaches is ludicrous.

Rooy

namloc1980 wrote: »

There was drainage installed and pumps but the pitch down there has always been crap. Perhaps being lower than the river next door is a fundamental issue that can't really be resolved.

The scoreboard was hard to see once it got dark. Could have done with being lit.

Lack of public lighting around the stadium and on the approaches is ludicrous.

Ya agree the scoreboard was very hard to read , thought it was just my eyesight first but everyone around me was struggling too , we were mid way.
Understand there is a giant screen going in at some stage.

Rooy

Not sure if true , but someone down there told me that they cant turn on the main pitch and training pitch floodlights seperately , but due to get resolved.

ScrubsfanChris

I could see both scoreboards fairly easily from the north stand.
The dark patches on the terracing was from powerwashing Friday/Saturday morning. Would be nice to stretch some Cork banners or something across the terracing when not in use though like they do in Thomond Park occasionally.

Rooy

The buggy for the stretcher also gave a good indication of how soft the ground was with the tyre marks it was leaving , not sure why they went right around the pitch though rather than straight on when the game was stopped anyway , maybe standard practice , was fearful they would get stuck in muck on way back when there was 3 on it.

clerk

Rooy wrote: »

Not sure if true , but someone down there told me that they cant turn on the main pitch and training pitch floodlights seperately , but due to get resolved.

Ah yes, Mr. Bean was on site for the light switches. It's sorted now l believe.

Was told that ex-All-Ireland Cork winners passes were not accepted at the turnstiles as the passes they had been given have no bar codes.

I'm waiting for the press release about "complainers" to be updated by the CCB. :eek:

clerk

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Bit of a dispute with the council over development contributions

The Cork County Board versus the Cork City Council, €60k versus €700k, this is going to be epic.

clerk

Rooy wrote: »

Pitch did cut up badly , given that the pitch itself seem to be intact for most of development

It seemed to me there was a lot of sand on the pitch. Their was little or no bounce on the ball and the players struggled badly in the first half to get used to it. Second half they adjusted as fellows like them will.

To be fair there will be a lot of matches there in the summer, 2 Cork hurling Championship games guaranteed etc. so the groundsman needs to make sure it's in peak condition for the Summer. Presumably the sand it with an aim for that goal. The hurlers have only 2 home league games as well.

clerk

On a positive note the burgers were nice enough and very handy to be able to get food there. The seats are great and the view is super. There was a massive crowd there for a league game and we beat Kilkenny.

511

Does Pairc Ui Chaoimh fit the criteria for a UEFA category 4 stadium?

namloc1980

511 wrote: »

Does Pairc Ui Chaoimh fit the criteria for a UEFA category 4 stadium?

Probably except for the terracing.

ScrubsfanChris

namloc1980 wrote: »

Probably except for the terracing.

Yes
Lighting, media, team facilities and everything else is fine.