Pairc Ui Chaoimh re-development

j8wk2feszrnpao

snotboogie wrote: »

Páirc Uí Chaoimh budget soars: A hard lesson and a missed opportunity

Another good article on the mess. Good to see more of the media talking sense:



hear, hear.....

It's a poor article. It just states the mess, and then says it should be municipal stadium.
No details on what other sports would be hosted, nothing on how much it may cost, who would own it, run it, maintain it? Nothing covered to ask if either soccer or rugby had any interest in such a venture.
It questions the location, but then doesn't offer an alternative (and the cost of building on new land).
The first two paragraphs (of seven paragraphs in total) are about budget overruns; and add little to nothing to the discussion.
A good in dept article on how a municipal stadium could have been agreed would be a great read. This is definitively not that article.

snotboogie

munstermagic11 wrote: »

It's a poor article. It just states the mess, and then says it should be municipal stadium.
No details on what other sports would be hosted, nothing on how much it may cost, who would own it, run it, maintain it? Nothing covered to ask if either soccer or rugby had any interest in such a venture.
It questions the location, but then doesn't offer an alternative (and the cost of building on new land).
The first two paragraphs (of seven paragraphs in total) are about budget overruns; and add little to nothing to the discussion.
A good in dept article on how a municipal stadium could have been agreed would be a great read. This is definitively not that article.

It's pretty obvious though, you answer your own first question one sentence later. There is a vocal subset who just don't want to hear it. I've gone to great lengths here to show how Munster Rugby has disenfranchised Cork; I've listed player pools, attendances, populations, listed home games.... I've done this many times and mostly I'm just told there's no problem and I'm happy with the current situation. What do you say to that like?

The facts remain, the new PUC is farcically underused and is a financial mess as a strictly GAA stadium. Munster Rugby have moved all but four home games a year to Limerick, despite the player pool and population base primarily coming from Cork. The clear inference is that these two parties should have worked together 15 years ago when both needed stadium upgrades, it's not too late to find some common ground to make the best of the current sub optimal situation and to learn from these mistakes in the future.

j8wk2feszrnpao

snotboogie wrote: »

It's pretty obvious though, you answer your own first question one sentence later. There is a vocal subset who just don't want to hear it. I've gone to great lengths here to show how Munster Rugby has disenfranchised Cork; I've listed player pools, attendances, populations, listed home games.... I've done this many times and mostly I'm just told there's no problem and I'm happy with the current situation. What do you say to that like?

The facts remain, the new PUC is farcically underused and is a financial mess as a strictly GAA stadium. Munster Rugby have moved all but four home games a year to Limerick, despite the player pool and population base primarily coming from Cork. The clear inference is that these two parties should have worked together 15 years ago when both needed stadium upgrades, it's not too late to find some common ground to make the best of the current sub optimal situation and to learn from these mistakes in the future.

The article is rubbish. You have covered more here than the article, I'll give you that. But the article adds no value whatsoever, which is what you posted.

There are some people that are disenfranchised; but they don't speak for all of Cork, just themselves. There are still plenty travelling to Limerick for games; that's a fact.

I'd like if more Munster games were down here, and it should be examined. But Thomand Park was always the most likely location for Munster Rugby; to think otherwise is just the inferiority/superiority complex that a number of Cork people have. Bitch and moan about Dublin getting everything, then pull out Cork has the population...etc when someone else gets something. Munster needed a proper home and base; Limerick won.

If the GAA can't get together to decide on a central location for a proper "Munster Cork Park", then reaching agreement between a multiple number of bodies across various sports is far more difficult; and nobody (yourself or the article) addresses any of those questions.

snotboogie

munstermagic11 wrote: »

The article is rubbish. You have covered more here than the article, I'll give you that. But the article adds no value whatsoever, which is what you posted.

There are some people that are disenfranchised; but they don't speak for all of Cork, just themselves. There are still plenty travelling to Limerick for games; that's a fact.

I'd like if more Munster games were down here, and it should be examined. But Thomand Park was always the most likely location for Munster Rugby; to think otherwise is just the inferiority/superiority complex that a number of Cork people have. Bitch and moan about Dublin getting everything, then pull out Cork has the population...etc when someone else gets something. Munster needed a proper home and base; Limerick won.

If the GAA can't get together to decide on a central location for a proper "Munster Cork Park", then reaching agreement between a multiple number of bodies across various sports is far more difficult; and nobody (yourself or the article) addresses any of those questions.

The article is calling out something that was almost never mentioned prior to this mess, at least in the mainstream. I think the reasons for a municipal stadium are absolutely obvious, especially in the light of recent developments. Fair enough they didn't extrapolate much but anything that breaks from the idealistic, ideological one stadium of every sport party line is extremely welcome, at least in my view.

I think it's very harsh to say that I am bitching and moaning about the state of Cork rugby. We are pumping out players at a rate second only to Dublin yet in terms of home games we are in the wilderness, a home game against a second string Edinburgh is the highlight of this years rugby calendar in Cork. I think that is a legitimate concern rather than the ranting inferiority complex that you are painting it as. You are right that this hasn't ever really bubbled over and as of now Munster are doing relatively ok with what they have. That's not to say that this won't ever come to the surface though. Splitting the province, Premiership Rugby poaching a team or even worse a slowly growing sense of apathy and a slowdown of Rugby in Cork, these sound incredibly unrealistic now but all it takes is a couple of events lining up and things making financial sense, crazier things have happened in sports...

On your last point, the main reason this was never discussed was because of the closed wall GAA and specifically Cork GAA. It's absolutely fair to ask why would Munster Rugby even bother to approach such an organization when they were looking for a bigger stadium.

AugustusMinimus

munstermagic11 wrote: »

The article is rubbish. You have covered more here than the article, I'll give you that. But the article adds no value whatsoever, which is what you posted.

There are some people that are disenfranchised; but they don't speak for all of Cork, just themselves. There are still plenty travelling to Limerick for games; that's a fact.

I'd like if more Munster games were down here, and it should be examined. But Thomand Park was always the most likely location for Munster Rugby; to think otherwise is just the inferiority/superiority complex that a number of Cork people have. Bitch and moan about Dublin getting everything, then pull out Cork has the population...etc when someone else gets something. Munster needed a proper home and base; Limerick won.

If the GAA can't get together to decide on a central location for a proper "Munster Cork Park", then reaching agreement between a multiple number of bodies across various sports is far more difficult; and nobody (yourself or the article) addresses any of those questions.

Why should Thomond always have been the obvious choice?

For years it was every second game Thomond v Musgrave. I remember Munster bearing Australia at Musgrave Park in 1992. Thomand hosted the All Blacks in 78 as it was Limericks turn.

History has been wholly rewritten when it comes to Munster and Limerick with Cork largely sidelined. And the Cork people who agree with this are the new fNs of the last 15 years who know no better.

j8wk2feszrnpao

snotboogie wrote: »

The article is calling out something that was almost never mentioned prior to this mess, at least in the mainstream. I think the reasons for a municipal stadium are absolutely obvious, especially in the light of recent developments. Fair enough they didn't extrapolate much but anything that breaks from the idealistic, ideological one stadium of every sport party line is extremely welcome, at least in my view.

I don't think the article extrapolated at all. Building a municipal stadium has far more complexity than for just one sport/organisation.
I went to Croker for some of the rugby games, and the extra distance away from the action wasn't enjoyable (from my point of view). Atmosphere helps sporting occasions; would it suits all sports?

What size would it be? I always thought that Thomand only needed to be ~20k, but Cork City only needs 8k max, and major GAA games probably need to be closer to 40k to complete with Thurles/Limerick. Half empty, or even less, stadiums kinda suck.

As I already said, where would it be located? If you and AugustusMinimus have issues with Thomand as the location, then the Limerick crowd may feel alienated. And you have the other counties to consider as well. Great to say it should be Cork in the Cork Forum; but Thomand, which became more and more synonymous with Munster, (rightly or wrongly) ticked a lot of boxes from the organizations viewpoint. They had to settle on a base of operations than continue the pull of war between the two locations.

And there's the cost. What would the final figure be (not an 80m guess like we've had)? Could it be roofed? Opportunity as a major Events Center?
Who pays, and how much do they pay? Costs of maintenance (GAA may say they play less games, so want to pay less maintenance....). How would the pitch hold up to all the GAA, soccer, rugby games..... who pays when the surface needs to be replaced? Would the scheduling of games (Munster Rugby and their club finals, Cork GAA county and major club games, Cork City games) be an issue?

I'm open to the option of a municipal stadium, but there's a lot of questions to be answered before it's a viable option. And the article does nothing to address any of them.

snotboogie

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I don't think the article extrapolated at all. Building a municipal stadium has far more complexity than for just one sport/organisation.
I went to Croker for some of the rugby games, and the extra distance away from the action wasn't enjoyable (from my point of view). Atmosphere helps sporting occasions; would it suits all sports?

What size would it be? I always thought that Thomand only needed to be ~20k, but Cork City only needs 8k max, and major GAA games probably need to be closer to 40k to complete with Thurles/Limerick. Half empty, or even less, stadiums kinda suck.

As I already said, where would it be located? If you and AugustusMinimus have issues with Thomand as the location, then the Limerick crowd may feel alienated. And you have the other counties to consider as well. Great to say it should be Cork in the Cork Forum; but Thomand, which became more and more synonymous with Munster, (rightly or wrongly) ticked a lot of boxes from the organizations viewpoint. They had to settle on a base of operations than continue the pull of war between the two locations.

And there's the cost. What would the final figure be (not an 80m guess like we've had)? Could it be roofed? Opportunity as a major Events Center?
Who pays, and how much do they pay? Costs of maintenance (GAA may say they play less games, so want to pay less maintenance....). How would the pitch hold up to all the GAA, soccer, rugby games..... who pays when the surface needs to be replaced? Would the scheduling of games (Munster Rugby and their club finals, Cork GAA county and major club games, Cork City games) be an issue?

I'm open to the option of a municipal stadium, but there's a lot of questions to be answered before it's a viable option. And the article does nothing to address any of them.

I've addressed nearly all of your questions over the course of this thread. I'm not saying my solutions are perfect or even viable but the point is that this was never discussed in the media or among the actual decision makers in Irish sports. They all ploughed ahead without any joined up thinking or negotiations and the media let them off with it while fans who brought up complaints were told to shut up and suck it.

I have never proposed taking all Munster games from Limerick by the way, I would be looking for a fairer split between the two cities.

j8wk2feszrnpao

snotboogie wrote: »

I've addressed nearly all of your questions over the course of this thread. I'm not saying my solutions are perfect or even viable

I wouldn't say you've addressed the issues I've raised. I know some have been discussed, but not addressed. To criticize others for not going down the route of a municipal stadium, then you (not you directly, but definitely the author of a published article) do need to address all those questions. It's not a simple solution, not even close to simple.

snotboogie wrote: »

this was never discussed in the media or among the actual decision makers in Irish sports. They all ploughed ahead without any joined up thinking or negotiations and the media let them off with it while fans who brought up complaints were told to shut up and suck it.

I don't think it's been widely discussed cause I don't know if it's viable. I listed just a few issues off the top of my head; and I'm sure that scheduling, ownership and costs are a huge factor for a shared venue. It may be a non runner entirely. And that's before you get the pigheadedness as a factor, when the soccer/rugby/GAA bigwigs play political games in getting their way when it comes to the management of the venue.

We have a Cork GAA supporter who could not deal with travelling to Thurles/Limerick/Killarney to watch Cork play home games. No way for him. If the GAA minds are that fractured, then getting another 2 (at least) sporting bodies involved, how do you make it all work? Maybe it's possible, but the article does nothing to further the discussion (which to be fair, may be too wide in scope for one person to research and publish for the Examiner).

sheff the ref

The one question I have is where the cost overrun came from

I am assuming that the tendering process was detailed enough and would factor in a possible +/- margin for regular overruns

When the project started, (and before it started also) it was clear that the terraces would need to be knocked. Did the two new terraces cost 30 million? When ground was broken, was there a change to the piling under the stands that cost extra money?

Where did the extra cost come from?

Mardyke

Does anyone know who the main contractors were for the build?

Water John

Frank and Bob Unlimited.

TheChizler

Mardyke wrote: »

Does anyone know who the main contractors were for the build?

SISK, but the board managed the electrics themselves, a big source of overrun if rumour is to be believed.

Water John

I'm right so.

Reputable Rog

TheChizler wrote: »

SISK, but the board managed the electrics themselves, a big source of overrun if rumour is to be believed.

Would anyone on the board have experience of electrics?

TheChizler

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Would anyone on the board have experience of electrics?

No idea, but by that I mean hired contracters themselves rather than having Sisk manage it.

Water John

Lads I think I have spelled it out for you in my previous posts.

D'Agger

Between the debacle with the stadium and the controversy in Galway where well over €1 million was spent preparing mens teams there's a call in todays Indo (saw it in passing), for professional services to be employed by county boards regarding accounting/fund management.

It should be done at that level, given volume of funds available and being spent, it's fairly imperative to ensure that practices are fully regulated and the easiest way to do that is outsource. The GAA has grown massively in recent years, gotten more and more professional - yet the underlying services provided appear to be handled by Joe Soap who has a good history with the GAA, it's causing problems that will only get worse in time unless it's nipped in the bud now.

Water John

Any significant build project needs a professional Project Manager (PM) answerable to an oversight board. Any deviantion esp financial is immediately flagged and needs approval, not difficult.

Mardyke

Is Bob Ryan on the board?

Water John

Stadium Operations Manager A bit of reading to enlighten you.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/cork-pays-tribute-to-departing-pairc-ui-chaoimh-boss-bob-ryan-853631.html

http://bob-ryan-electrical-and-network-cabling-systems.electrical-contractors.cork.tel/

http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5979969

EnzoScifo

TheChizler wrote: »

SISK, but the board managed the electrics themselves, a big source of overrun if rumour is to be believed.

A similar story with the Spurs stadium delay apparently. Spurs took the contracting for electrics and safety systems in house rather than through the main project and it caused untold hassle.

Reputable Rog

Water John wrote: »

Lads I think I have spelled it out for you in my previous posts.

I know, I was being sarcastic.

j8wk2feszrnpao

It gets worse and worse, potentially not playing a game in PUC for a year and to fix it "You're talking serious, serious money, however."
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0205/1027636-expert-says-pairc-ui-chaoimh-work-may-take-12-months/

blue note

As farcical as it is, at least it means counties won't be dragged down to cork for games that should be played elsewhere. Other than Waterford vs tipp (although I think a huge proportion of those fans would rather croke Park anyway), can anyone think of a single neutral pairing that pairc ui caoimh would be the most suitable venue for? Don't try too hard, because there isn't one.

Water John

Kerry V Waterford.

yabadabado

munstermagic11 wrote: »

It gets worse and worse, potentially not playing a game in PUC for a year and to fix it "You're talking serious, serious money, however."
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0205/1027636-expert-says-pairc-ui-chaoimh-work-may-take-12-months/

Dr. Hyde park pitch was in a awful mess but they dug it up and relaid a new sand based pitch along with drainage and it didn't take a year.
iirc it was dug up around July and was back being played on for the start of the league in February. About 7 months .

blue note

Water John wrote: »

Kerry V Waterford.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or serious, but pairc ui rinn would be far too big for Kerry vs Waterford in hurling and foodball. Pairc ui caoimh would be beyond a joke.

j8wk2feszrnpao

yabadabado wrote: »

Dr. Hyde park pitch was in a awful mess but they dug it up and relaid a new sand based pitch along with drainage and it didn't take a year.
iirc it was dug up around July and was back being played on for the start of the league in February. About 7 months .

I'm only quoting an expert on the matter. Even at 7 months (if they started this month), it's the end of the season more or less when it might be completed, so might as well be a year.

Unfortunately the Cork County Board failed miserably to do proper testing, and they are not going to get it fixed this year cause they are going ahead with Championship games there.

yabadabado

I'd have thought they would have stuck with it for this season once Munster championship is over start the work.
I doubt Cork County board will start work straight away get over these next few weeks and hope the pitch holds up for now.

Cape Clear

yabadabado wrote: »

I'd have thought they would have stuck with it for this season once Munster championship is over start the work.
I doubt Cork County board will start work straight away get over these next few weeks and hope the pitch holds up for now.

Doubt a new pitch will be laid before Rod Stewart