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backstop
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21-06-2010 12:35am#1
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As Tackleberrywho says, the majority of rifle rounds appear to be brought to a halt at a depth of 6-18 inches or so in sand or soil, as a bit of digging in the bullet trap at a range will attest.
That's not the point of a 'backstop' though; the backstops at approved ranges are the size and shape they are so that they'll catch the rounds that aren't perfectly on target and to reduce the statistical chances of a round escaping the range to as close to zero as practically possible.
If you're thinking of knocking something 'informal' together somewhere, be very careful you don't do something that sees you coming to the attention of the Range Inspector and/or the subject of the test case that decides 'What is a Range?'
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ivanthehunter wrote: »The side of a mountain blanketed in bog! might be alright for a one or two shot zero check, a sand quarry would be better..
And as far as things go it seems fairly well excepted that your allowed a few shots to check and adjust your zero..
Make sure that any soil bank you pick is safe and stable and try to avoid big rocks....
The High bank in a bog is ideal. as sand in a quarry can get into tight spots and cause irritation
Nobody can stop you zeroing, but if you decide to empty 100's of rounds you will get unwanted attention.
Midlands has the best back stops in Ireland
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tommyboy26 wrote: »the reason i asked is because i wondered that if i toke a few practice shots in the field what would i shoot at that would stop the round? this leads me to my next question if unstopped by anythin how far would a .308 round travel before it hit the ground?
tommy
A lot of physics here, I won't give you BS but in around the region of 2.5 miles.
The old .22lr extreme range is 1.5km on most HV rounds.
.308n has a longer range exactly I am unsure, but a good few people have been killed around the world with eejits firing rifles into the air etc.
Most important, when in doubt DON'T SHOOT 0 -
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According to the "experts" a .22 will travel for about 1.2 miles, a .223 for 2.2 miles and a .308 for roughly 3.4 miles. All these vary and depend on bullet type, grainage, make up etc. It is also understood that the bullet would "land/strike" at a 66 degree angle.
Also the rifle would have to be shot at between a 35-40 degree angle to achieve this distance and any TOOL doing this needs a slap. Worth keeping in mind when judging whether to take a shot or not.
.....................KNOW YOUR BACKSTOP......................
Good Man Ezridax, good to see you back on Boards.
I could not think of the exact distance. I knew it was quite a bit.
You may know more than most on backstops having built one quite sucessfully with a little help from a few good men 0 -
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Opinions like that should be kept to yourself. The last thing we need in this country is the powers that be deciding on a "field-by-field" basis what calibres of firearm, if any, can be used. Greater Government control should not be a substitute for common sense.
Easy there tiger.
it was only an opinion.
And common sense is not that common.
A bog high bang or a sandy, or earthy hill is a great back stop.
I have some deer hunting on extremely flat land, so I think a tree hid will be my best course of action.(or maybe the bucket of a teleporter) 0 -
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To answer the original question, the depth of the backstop is not as important as its height. Providing the backstop is suitably high, it will also be suitably thick.
For ranges, the height of a backstop is usually based on a safety angle which eliminates the effect of distance. In other words, if you use the same angle at all times, your backstop will get higher at longer ranges. This aspect of range design is highly technical and involves calculations of ricochet angles and misaimed shots.
According to the UK MOD range guidelines, an appropriate safety angle for firing at a fixed target from a fixed firing point is approximately one and a half degrees. This equates to a 3m high backstop at 100 metres or 5.7m at 200 yards (assuming a prone firing position).
This also assumes that the area beyond the backstop is not populated. The size of this area is defined by the type of ammunition used.
I helped build the biggest backstop in the country recently, and it was quite big.
(photo's later )
The most important [parts of a back stop are absorbsion of the round.
The reason they have to make so big on ranges is they have to make them idiot proof.
ie worst case scenario and all that.
I do have to say I fire a shotty in a much different way than a rifle for that reason.
the round trajectory effective range et al.
I am always consious that the .308 can go further and fawster than a .22lr.
I equally have fired air rifle indoors, Match quality rifles with the DF.
Our backstop was hard plastic sheets.
i have also switnessed people hitting the ground on a military range and not the backstop.
If you build a house you design it with a risk assessment, if you build a public building that risk assessment is much different.(speaking from my experiences)
so for hunting, a safe back stop should be several metres high and several meters deep, of a material capable of absorbing the round.
a .308 will go through a deer so you want a safe backstop as the deer is not.
A range has to be extreme as people on a range may have never shot before and they require a super safe place to fire as a result before they go into a field.
That is why I would encourage a young lad to do a bit of range work on paper before he goes into the field.
So they would understand what they are doing before they start doing it.
My final point is for Mr Foley, Tac Sorry if your points were taken up wrong, it's just sometimes lads get very passionate about the sport they love. Take it with a good pinch of salt.
I still maintain you would be made welcome in Ireland.0 -
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Idiots aren't confined to rangesTackleberrywho wrote: »I helped build the biggest backstop in the country recently, and it was quite big.
(photo's later )
The most important [parts of a back stop are absorbsion of the round.
The reason they have to make so big on ranges is they have to make them idiot proof.
ie worst case scenario and all that.
Before the backstop is capable of absorbing the round's energy, it has to be in its path. Hence it must be the correct height for the distance to the shooter.
That's not ideal. The backsplash distance for air rifle is 10m and hard plastic is a very good deflector. Plywood or softboard is much more effective.I equally have fired air rifle indoors, Match quality rifles with the DF.
Our backstop was hard plastic sheets.
As I said earlier, it's all relative to the distance. A one and a half degree increase in elevation (and lets face it 1½ degrees is a tiny deviation) will have the round clearing 13.5m at 500m and a whopping 27m at 1000m. That's almost 90 feet :eek:so for hunting, a safe back stop should be several metres high and several meters deep, of a material capable of absorbing the round.
No, a range is designed to be safe for all shots because there are a lot more shots fired on a range than 'in the field' and the chances of misaimed shots become statistical certainty very quickly indeed. It has nothing to do with the level of competence of the users, in fact if anything, the competence of the user should already be negated on a range due to the presence of ROs and RCOs as well as strict induction training and safety procedures.A range has to be extreme as people on a range may have never shot before and they require a super safe place to fire as a result before they go into a field.0 -
The backsplash distance is actually a lot more than 10m, as I've found myself on more than one occasionThat's not ideal. The backsplash distance for air rifle is 10m and hard plastic is a very good deflector. Plywood or softboard is much more effective.
But angled hard plastic is actually pretty useful, so long as it's deflecting into a containment vessel of some kind (there are similar systems for smallbore too, using spiral conduits - though not using plastic ).
Though isn't there a part of the range standards that covers accidental shots (from a dropped loaded rifle or a standing shooter passing out or whatever)?No, a range is designed to be safe for all shots because there are a lot more shots fired on a range than 'in the field' and the chances of misaimed shots become statistical certainty very quickly indeed. It has nothing to do with the level of competence of the users, in fact if anything, the competence of the user should already be negated on a range due to the presence of ROs and RCOs as well as strict induction training and safety procedures.0 -
Idiots aren't confined to ranges I never said that!
Before the backstop is capable of absorbing the round's energy, it has to be in its path. Hence it must be the correct height for the distance to the shooter.
That is what I said
That's not ideal. The backsplash distance for air rifle is 10m and hard plastic is a very good deflector. Plywood or softboard is much more effective. Nothing in the DF is best , it is the cheapest!
As I said earlier, it's all relative to the distance. A one and a half degree increase in elevation (and lets face it 1½ degrees is a tiny deviation) will have the round clearing 13.5m at 500m and a whopping 27m at 1000m. That's almost 90 feet :eek:
Most hunting is done at 50-150m your 13.5 @500 is a small hill
No, a range is designed to be safe for all shots because there are a lot more shots fired on a range than 'in the field' and the chances of misaimed shots become statistical certainty very quickly indeed. It has nothing to do with the level of competence of the users, in fact if anything, the competence of the user should already be negated on a range due to the presence of ROs and RCOs as well as strict induction training and safety procedures.
be that as it may a Civie range is a public place and has to be up to ridiculous standards .0 -
OK, 14 feet at 150mTackleberrywho wrote: »Most hunting is done at 50-150m your 13.5 @500 is a small hill
. Remember that it's only an angular deviation of 1½ degrees, change that to 5 degrees and your bullet will clear 13.5m at 150 (or a small hill if you prefer )
Actually the standards we've worked to for very many years were military ones. The current standards are a derivation of original military standards with additional areas that by their nature would be civilian only. I don't agree that they are ridiculous. Their purpose is to make shooting a safe and enjoyable sport and that it continues to be for the forseeable future. Even with all these standards, the strangest and most bizarre things can happen. I remember shooting on Century Range in Bisley when an immediate cease fire was called; the reason being that some idiot decided to take his dog for a walk along the top of the butts (with over 200 rifles pointing at him :eek:).be that as it may a Civie range is a public place and has to be up to ridiculous standards .
All ranges are engineered to factor out the effect of misaimed, accidental or other discharges. They are either designed as Danger Area, Limited Danger Area or No Danger Area ranges and also combinations of the above. The idea being that either no shot can leave the range area, or shots that leave the range area can do no damage.Sparks wrote:Though isn't there a part of the range standards that covers accidental shots (from a dropped loaded rifle or a standing shooter passing out or whatever)?0 -
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So we are broadly in agreement, thank god for that!
The midlands of Ireland are fully of sandy hills and bogs so it is actually a great place to find a safe backstop.
I still have the quandary of some deer permissions in an Glacial outwash plain with slugs not permitted, yet in my opinion they would be best suited for the job.
But hey, them's are the rules!0
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