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Government withdraws transgender appeal

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    #62
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    28064212 wrote: »
    So why take a half-measure of allowing birth-certs to be changed?

    Because it's not a half measure?
    I don't care what my birth cert says, I have never been "male" despite what's between my legs. It defines me as something that I have never been, so why should I not want to get that changed, and why is that only a half measure?


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    #63
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    28064212 wrote: »
    Which definition? The definition of male? Did you ignore the part I said about "physically"? How about where I've repeatedly said that gender is made up of 2 very distinct parts? You also ignored the point that I made, regardless of any posted definitions.

    Because I already answered it and I'm not one for repeating myself. Gender is not made up of 2 parts, there are just several indicators.


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    #64
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,627 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Links234 wrote: »
    Because it's not a half measure?
    I don't care what my birth cert says, I have never been "male" despite what's between my legs. It defines me as something that I have never been, so why should I not want to get that changed, and why is that only a half measure?
    If your birth cert was changed in the morning, but you still weren't allowed marry, or any other right was denied to you, would that be ok? No, of course not. The physical gender at birth was male, and that's what is recorded on the birth cert. Your gender identity is what it's always been, and you should be entitled to change ongoing documentation to reflect that
    wonderfulname wrote: »
    Because I already answered it and I'm not one for repeating myself. Gender is not made up of 2 parts, there are just several indicators.
    Where have you answered that point? That a birth cert is a representation of what a person is at the time of birth, not what they are at some time in the future?

    Gender identity is made up of several indicators. Physical gender is not (except for rare medical conditions).

    This question hasn't been answered yet btw: "To the people who fall on the side of changeable birth-certs, do you think the name of the mother should be changed in the case of a child who was adopted? If that child feels that her adopted mother is her real mother? I don't think it should be changed, because it's an historical record"

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    #65
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Where a child has been adopted there is a certifcate of adoption which states the adoptive parent's names and the birth records are usually sealed until the child is 18 anyway and adoption certs are used in stead of birth certs.

    Thus far the government have to find away to take inconsideration when a person under goes a transition in physical gender and to take steps to allow for the legal documentation to reflect that. Thus far we have no indication as how that will be managed it may mean an altered birthcert, or a new cert all together which will get them a pass port and other legal documents which they need which will reflect thier current gender.

    We won't know until the paper on this is drawn up and it could be some while before that happens if they drag thier heels in the same way after being told by the EU courts that homosexuality was to be decriminalised.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_for_Homosexual_Law_Reform

    The EU court ruling was in 1988 but it wasn't until 1993 the law was reformed.
    So it's not over yet.


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    #66
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    28064212 wrote: »
    Where have you answered that point? That a birth cert is a representation of what a person is at the time of birth, not what they are at some time in the future?
    Nobody believes we should sit and wait to see what the kid says, just that the most likely gender be put on the birth cert as normal, but be recognized as just that, most likely, with anyone given the option to amend at a future date given reasonable evidence to the contrary.
    28064212 wrote: »
    Gender identity is made up of several indicators. Physical gender is not (except for rare medical conditions).

    This again
    28064212 wrote: »
    This question hasn't been answered yet btw: "To the people who fall on the side of changeable birth-certs, do you think the name of the mother should be changed in the case of a child who was adopted? If that child feels that her adopted mother is her real mother? I don't think it should be changed, because it's an historical record"

    That is not at all what we are taking about, it is, as someone has already put it, a straw man.


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    #67
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    wonderfulname wrote: »
    That is not at all what we are taking about, it is, as someone has already put it, a straw man.
    Actually its exactly what is being discussed here.
    The sole point of disagreement is the issue of whether a birth cert is an record of a historical event and should remain unchanged. Or is it something which can be arbitrarily changed to suit a individuals current circumstances.


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    #68
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Actually its exactly what is being discussed here.
    The sole point of disagreement is the issue of whether a birth cert is an record of a historical event and should remain unchanged. Or is it something which can be arbitrarily changed to suit a individuals current circumstances.

    But the cert IS used to reflect show someone's current circumstances. You know, they don't look at a birth cert to see what you were when you were born, they look at it to see what you're defined as now. This "Historical document" thing is a load of old nonsense.


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    #69
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Links234 wrote: »
    But the cert IS used to reflect show someone's current circumstances. You know, they don't look at a birth cert to see what you were when you were born, they look at it to see what you're defined as now. This "Historical document" thing is a load of old nonsense.

    I totally agree with you, at present the birth cert defines the individual gender, the court case referenced at the beginning was to ensure the state recognised the 'change' in gender for transgendered individuals.
    The assumption (and this is my assumption :) ) is that those arguing against a change on the birth-cert assume a mechanism will be provided to record the change in circumstances. For example on your death your birth-cert isn't amended or destroyed, but rather another piece of documentation the death-cert is provided to record your change in state.

    I would imagine that a facility to alter your passport, driver license and other state documentation would be provided.


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    #70
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    I think it should be pointed out how this works in the UK, They don't actually amend the original document. So in effect the original document does still exist.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004
    A Birth Certificate drawn from the Gender Recognition Register is indistinguishable from any other birth certificate, and will indicate the new legal sex and name. It can be used wherever a birth certificate is used, such as for issue of a passport. The birth certificate showing the previous legal gender continues to exist, and will carry no indication that there is an associated Gender Recognition Certificate or alternative birth certificate. Certain authorised agencies, with court permission, may have access to the Gender Recognition Register showing the links between these certificates, but the link will be invisible to the general public. This is the same way that birth certificates drawn from the Adoption Register work.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #71
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    I would imagine that a facility to alter your passport, driver license and other state documentation would be provided.

    This is already happening - passports are issued in the acquired gender already

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #72
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    28064212 wrote: »
    The physical gender and the identity gender are inextricably linked for the first few years
    Where on Earth are you getting your information!? When a child is born, it is born only with its natural instincts - it knows precisely nothing about the social construct called "gender", and it will be a few years before an understanding of that construct forms in the child's mind. It is at that point that the problems start for many trans people.
    Gender isn't important for lots of things you need a birth cert for
    So you acknowledge that, at least some of the time, it is important. It is those times that cause trans people such grief / embarrassment / potential danger.
    That depends on what definition of "man" you are using when you talk of a man's body. Are you using the genetic definition? But then what about those whose genetic gender is neither XX nor XY? Or are you using the definition "whatever was the first thing to come into the doctor's mind"? If so, then what about intersexed people?
    There are exceptions to everything. In those cases, I would suggest it be up to the parents to decide.
    Erm, shouldn't the child have a say in this? OK - it's going to take a few years (see above), but still, the principle remains...
    Indeed, it isn't possible for a transgender person to change their birth cert at all.
    Or any other person. As I believe it should be
    So you are opposed to the way that the birth cert of an adopted person can be changed?

    I know someone whose date of birth is wrong on their birth cert. Should that not be allowed to change?

    Or is it only those of us who have certain medical conditions that should be left stuck with a birth cert that is wrong?
    Why shouldn't the birth cert of a trans person be changed? Because you love people for their genes? Because you believe that whatever a strange doctor says about a baby that they have only known for a few minutes should follow that person with them for the rest of their lives?
    No, but I don't care who their biological mother was or where they were born. I still think it should be recorded though
    Again - why? Why should this piece of occasionally random information be recorded? (As you say, there are exceptions to everything - and in those exceptions the gender recorded at birth ends up being a choice that someone has picked out of the air. Why should that be recorded?).


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    #73
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    As 28064212 stated, few if any are arguing against state documentation getting changed to reflect their revised gender. It simply revolves around historical documentation being immutable.
    Any document containing your current identity cannot be considered to be either historical or immutable. Which means that the birth cert cannot be such a document.

    There is a mechanism in place which deals with identity changes and the need to keep a historical record - namely the deed poll. I imagine that the legislation will say that a trans person cannot change their birth cert until they have done a deed poll. So it is the deed poll, not the birth cert, that will deal with the history.


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    #74
    deirdre_dub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    28064212 wrote: »
    Your gender identity is what it's always been, and you should be entitled to change ongoing documentation to reflect that
    The fact of the matter is that the birth cert is, itself, an "ongoing document". As others have said, it is used in situations where people need to know your current identity. So if aspects of your identity as recorded on your birth cert are, in certain circumstances, unknowable at the time of your birth, and if those aspects of your identity are subsequently required by people who need to know your current understanding of those aspects, then there needs to be a mechanism by which the birth cert can change.

    Yes there is also a need for a historical record - a child born to a trans parent who has the trans parent's birth name on their birth cert will need to be able to show that this person is one of their parents. It is the deed poll mechanism that provides this historical record.


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    #75
    Katherine Jane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭Katherine Jane


    It's nice to see Ireland shaking off it's ancient beliefs!


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    #76
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Katherine Jane wrote: »
    It's nice to see Ireland shaking off it's ancient beliefs!
    Except that it's different when it's being forced to rather than getting up and doing it of its own volition.


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    #77
    wonderfulname
    Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    ixoy wrote: »
    Except that it's different when it's being forced to rather than getting up and doing it of its own volition.

    I have to say Ireland and the Irish Government are to completely different things at times, and this is one of them. The manner in which this story was handled by the media and the manner in which most people in general seem to be approaching the issue is a pleasure to see.


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    #78
    Katherine Jane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭Katherine Jane


    ixoy wrote: »
    Except that it's different when it's being forced to rather than getting up and doing it of its own volition.

    YES, but any change is a positive one! The US just changed Passport requirements, which means that I will be applying not just for a name change, but gender as well. Sometimes, it takes an outside interest (like the EU) to effect those changes that are neccessary.

    Kate


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    #79
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    ixoy wrote: »
    Except that it's different when it's being forced to rather than getting up and doing it of its own volition.
    Much as I hate to acknowledge and Green Party influence it looks to me like FF would have gone on with the appeal but the Greens demanded it be dropped

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #80
    Katherine Jane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭Katherine Jane


    So, now that it has happened, it is time to celebrate it. We have our outdated beliefs in the States too. There are a lot of politicians of both of our major parties that fall in step with the more conservative Churches. It is a way of gaining votes, I suppose. "Let's prevent people who are different from gaining access to ANYTHING that might allow them to live a normal life."


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    #81
    LittleSam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭LittleSam


    DubArk wrote: »
    You’re not really been controversial, you're just going along with the a mind set that has on many occasions reflected your outdated opinion.

    As been a fly on the wall, you’ll probably find it more useful to do some research on the subject and inform yourself.


    Well true i could research all i want about being a woman ...but i perhpas because I am a woman and was born a woman I have some insight into what it the difference is and under no circumstances, could i provide sperm to aide another woman have kids..... but if i was born a man and changed my sex then of couse, id have sperm......


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    #82
    LittleSam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭LittleSam


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    Lydia Foy is a woman, who happens to have been born male. The birth certificate is the document required to have a lot of other documents adjusted to reflect transition, so adjustment of the gender marker should be allowed.


    "...been born male."
    Eh doesn't your statement just prove the fact that the birthcert should state she was born male?!!?


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    #83
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    LittleSam wrote: »
    Well true i could research all i want about being a woman ...but i perhpas because I am a woman and was born a woman I have some insight into what it the difference is and under no circumstances, could i provide sperm to aide another woman have kids..... but if i was born a man and changed my sex then of couse, id have sperm......

    And?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #84
    DubArk
    Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭DubArk


    LittleSam wrote: »
    Well true i could research all i want about being a woman ...but i perhpas because I am a woman and was born a woman I have some insight into what it the difference is and under no circumstances, could i provide sperm to aide another woman have kids..... but if i was born a man and changed my sex then of couse, id have sperm......

    Completely gone over your head I see… Not the sperm I hasten to add.

    My advise was not to research, on been a women, a major congratulations there, on been one and doing it all on your own btw, it was on transgender issues I felt that you needed to do research on! Because as you really have no comprehension of the complexities involved in such issues and the more you write the more blatant it is that you really don’t have a clue what you’re talking about.

    Your choice is to inform yourself or wallow. My bet is on Wallowing :D


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