to baptise or not to baptise, that is the question

Pete M.

+1 to the above.

Have two kids myself, both unbaptised and no regrets whatsoever.

No problem getting them into the local school, no funny looks, no comments from other parents, no relatives worrying about them going to the first circle of hell (except the maternal grandma, but only half arsedly so).
Have had some great exchanges with my young buck, 5, about god and whether 'he' exists or not. I would describe myself as agnostic and not particularly anxious about my comprehension of spirituality btw.
But if he or my daughter ended up wanting to be imams, nuns whatever, so long as I thought it was genuine and made them happy, off they go with my blessing, so to speak.

Deliverance

Sizzler wrote: »

Was listening to Newstalk on the way into work this morning and they were talking about baptising children just for the sake of getting the child into the best school in years to come, not because of the religious aspect.

Mods, before I go any further I posted this here and not religion forums as I thought this might be more balanced and relevant, hope thats OK

Anyway,sort of got me thinking, not sure if we would get our kids christened as we arent practising catholics, dont know many people of my generation who are tbh so theres no real reason why we would unless it was a barrier to getting into the local school.

Any other parents or parents to be out there with this quandry? There was people texting in newstalk this morning saying they had no issues getting their kids in to the local school even thought they werent baptised but on the other hand there was people saying they had to do it to ensure their place, one guy said they were refused a place so he just went and got his 4 yr old baptised and all was OK then ! People were making valid points about letting the kids decide when they are older what they want to do, if they are interested in religion (any kind!) then they can make their own call instead of the decision being made for them, Im tending to lean towards this plus the fact Im not really that bothered with religion myself and probably wouldnt set a great example in the years ahead!

Thoiughts? Anybody any experience of the above?

My child was accepted into our school of choice, we chose the school via experience of previous related students that did well enough acedemically. Religion did not come into it.

When it comes to the spiritual stuff then she comes to us / parents with questions about life not the damned priest;)

Nevyn

Sizzler wrote: »

Was listening to Newstalk on the way into work this morning and they were talking about baptising children just for the sake of getting the child into the best school in years to come, not because of the religious aspect.

Mods, before I go any further I posted this here and not religion forums as I thought this might be more balanced and relevant, hope thats OK

Anyway,sort of got me thinking, not sure if we would get our kids christened as we arent practising catholics, dont know many people of my generation who are tbh so theres no real reason why we would unless it was a barrier to getting into the local school.

Any other parents or parents to be out there with this quandry? There was people texting in newstalk this morning saying they had no issues getting their kids in to the local school even thought they werent baptised but on the other hand there was people saying they had to do it to ensure their place, one guy said they were refused a place so he just went and got his 4 yr old baptised and all was OK then ! People were making valid points about letting the kids decide when they are older what they want to do, if they are interested in religion (any kind!) then they can make their own call instead of the decision being made for them, Im tending to lean towards this plus the fact Im not really that bothered with religion myself and probably wouldnt set a great example in the years ahead!

Thoiughts? Anybody any experience of the above?

This topic comes up a fair bit on here.


Previous threads
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055057491
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055000841
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055465146
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055851467&highlight=baptism+schools


I have two who are now 10 and 12 and neither are baptised, we are just not hypocrites enough and if the children wish to become part of a religion when they are older they have been told we will support them.

Sizzler

Thaedydal wrote: »

This topic comes up a fair bit on here.


Previous threads
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055057491
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055000841
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055465146
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055851467&highlight=baptism+schools


I have two who are now 10 and 12 and neither are baptised, we are just not hypocrites enough and if the children wish to become part of a religion when they are older they have been told we will support them.

Thanks

Chuchoter

I'm an atheist, so I would like to not baptize my kids (if/when I have them). Living in Ireland though they have to get into schools, and I don't like the ET ones. You don't want to end up in a position where they can only start when they are 7 or something

Nevyn

Children have to start school by the age of 6 unless the are being home schooled.

mohawk

I have a one year old and we have not baptised him I know in some places in doesn't matter they can still get into school but in other areas getting into the good schools is very competitive.
I don't agree with baptising children for the sake of it. Over 90% of primary schools are catholic in this country and if people keep baptising children for the sake of it this will never change.

Splendour

Hey Sizzler, why not ask simply your local Catholic school what their stance is on this (when the need arises ).
In case you're interested, there's a discussion going on at the mo in the Christianity forum on this same topic...

Nevyn

While the inputs of grandparents can be a wonderful thing the decision rests with the parents.

dr ro

i'm atheist, gf's agnostic, we had our 2 kids baptised together despite 2 year gap purely so that we could keep our options open as to schools. There's nothing hypocritical about it.some schools decide they don't want pagans prods catholics jews or whatever else. They do offer preferential treatment to the kids with the right tag. Religion is nonsense to me so if by giving my kids the appropriate tags i can ensure a better education for them, i'm giving them a massive boost. They're kids ffs not catholics or prods. They will be informed by us about religions so that they can decide for themselves when they are old enough.

lynski

we didn't and we won't. we are atheist and i would not be able to look my children in the eye in the future if i had been a hypocrite and baptised them. they will not go to a catholic primary school, we are one of the lucky few families, but there does not seem to be an option re secondary, yet.
I could not seriously tell my children that we do not believe there is a god but we allowed some 'holy' man pour some 'holy' water on you wash away some uncommitted sin you were born with and to ask some god to welcome you and watch over you, while we smiled and nodded our agreement to abide by the laws of this god and reject his enemy the devil.

How could they believe anything we have to say?

dr ro

where do your priorities lie. Your feeling like a hypocrite or your kids' education? You come across as a bit over sensitive in relation to the holy man holy water stuff. Most people will admit it's all makey upy rubbish, some won't admit it. Could you not smile and nod for the sake of a better education for them. They'd probably appreciate it in the long run.

Nevyn

Nothing to do with the being sensative about religion I would not stand up infront of people and lie and take oaths which I had no intention of ever keeping it's a matter of personal honour.

lynski

dr ro wrote: »

where do your priorities lie. Your feeling like a hypocrite or your kids' education? You come across as a bit over sensitive in relation to the holy man holy water stuff. Most people will admit it's all makey upy rubbish, some won't admit it. Could you not smile and nod for the sake of a better education for them. They'd probably appreciate it in the long run.

my priorities lie in teaching my children values that i hold as important. I believe you are what you do and if you are a hypocrite about this then what else will you compromise your values on?
I would not join a far right party to ensure that my children got into a 'good' school (and the definition is up for grabs too), i would not join or or register my children with an organisation that denigrates women or gay people, that has protected criminals and been party to hypocrisy for centuries.
If more people in this country had the courage of their convictions this would not be an issue - the church would not have the numbers to justify their position of power in schools.

dr ro

yeah i totally agree with you. It's all of the above that caused me to start thinking about the church and religion. I used to be practising and my parents were all of their lives. I've read the bible a couple of times I'm well aware of it's contents and relish seeing witnesses come to my door. They usually make some weak excuse after about an hour then leave frustrated. It's this feeling toward the church that make it easier for me to pay the lip service required to get them baptised despite my beliefs. Also they don't have to be baptised catholic.

Sleepy

smelltheglove wrote: »

I had my kids christened, people may say I am not a practising catholic as I dont attend church but I dont believe that is true. I believe being a catholic does not mean you need to go to church, I believe in God, I believe in a holier power and I believe in a lot of the values the church teaches, like respect thy neighbour etc. When I do go to church it is usually when I am photographing a wedding to be honest, I dont think that just because I believe I should have to listen to someone preach once a week or more, I dont think that is what religion is about, in my view and I do know a fair few others with the same opinion as me.

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the fact that because of your beliefs the Catholic Church don't recognise you as a member other than when they want to quote numbers to support their interference in the School system here?

It genuinely amuses me that so many people (who would be closer in their beliefs to the various Protestant religions) profess themselves to be Catholic out of a blind belief that to be anything other than Catholic is a bad thing when it's a refusal to blindly accept Catholic dogma that rules them out of being one!

Splendour

Thaedydal wrote: »

Nothing to do with the being sensative about religion I would not stand up infront of people and lie and take oaths which I had no intention of ever keeping it's a matter of personal honour.

Absolutely right Thaedydal! I hate going to Christenings and listening to parents lie about how they promise to bring their kids up in the Catholic faith. If you're willing to join the army ya gotta be willing to wear the boots!

Deliverance

The catholic schools will take on young ones despite the parents attitudes or beliefs in a manipulative way because the young ones are malleable. The peer pressure is there for sure with the symbolic communions and confirmations. It is a tactic pure and simple to indoctrinate people on mass into a power filled organisation.

The Nazi youth were a good example of this. Hitler used the same tactic to wage war continuosly by indoctrinating the youth in our society.

My own little one is talking to me about Jesus and making her own holy water to bless herself with, when I disagree with her on this she fights me on it. She is also swayed by tv ads as well when she watches them.

I would prefer my child to not be involved in an education system that is partly an 'advert' for the corrupt catholic church. But it is endemic in our society via the aforementioned peer pressure.

I will teach her about this when she is old enough in the meantime I have to put up with it. Religion should not be involved in education. Education is about real learning, it should not be about fantastical stories that are metaphors that should be taken as metaphors and not facts.

I won't get her 'baptised' and she will not be attending communion or confirmation due to this. I do not believe in the Catholic Church by their corruption and denial of current issues which should not be forgotten to not let the abuse happen again.

Deliverance

Just came across this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nx7eb82n_o

rccaulfield

Fair play to yis- have one and was very much a forced baptism from the inlaws, difficult to sit through the 16th century rubbish tbh!

Deliverance

rccaulfield wrote: »

Fair play to yis- have one and was very much a forced baptism from the inlaws, difficult to sit through the 16th century rubbish tbh!

Pretty much have the same pressure from one side of the family as well. They are old school though so I can only but try to understand their 'innocent' indoctrinated views despite their years.

To me they seem to have a disability in a way, disability of being able to make a choice via the pressure of the 'masses'. Huge irony to me on the 'masses' point, plus an indicator about how the whole process works. I guess that is an ecumenical matter as Father Ted pointed out;)

I don't attend church and neither does my partner. We both have been in a bit of a dilemma for awhile about what to do i.e. bow to the pressure for the sake of it etc or stick to our guns.

This thread has given me an extra resolve to stick to my guns and not do the 'deed'. I'm glad to see others have the same view as myself.

Parents and parenting forum... Score 1 Church 0;)

Nevyn

Deliverance wrote: »

I don't attend church and neither does my partner. We both have been in a bit of a dilemma for awhile about what to do i.e. bow to the pressure for the sake of it etc or stick to our guns.

This thread has given me an extra resolve to stick to my guns and not do the 'deed'. I'm glad to see others have the same view as myself.

Parents and parenting forum... Score 1 Church 0;)

In fairness I have family members who have a very strong faith and I respect their views on raising their child as they wish to pass their faith along and I did attend the baptism of their children and was happy to be invited.

I guess I believe in for a penny in for a pound, don't do it unless you are active in that faith.

How Strange

I've already had the conversation with my mam. She was horrified not because she's a devout catholic (although she us a church going practicing one) but for her it's like the ultimate catholic superstition.

Anyway we told her it was an absolute no which we both were in 100% agreement on. She said my dad who is quite devout would be very upset and I said we weren't doing it to offend or antagonise anyone. It would be our child and we would raise it our way and we'd expect people to respect that in the same way as I repect other peoples parenting choices.

So far so good although I'm sure they will ramp the pressure up once the baby is born. I fully expect my side to douse it with holy water at the first opportunity.

metrovelvet

Deliverance wrote: »

The catholic schools will take on young ones despite the parents attitudes or beliefs in a manipulative way because the young ones are malleable. The peer pressure is there for sure with the symbolic communions and confirmations. It is a tactic pure and simple to indoctrinate people on mass into a power filled organisation.

The Nazi youth were a good example of this. Hitler used the same tactic to wage war continuosly by indoctrinating the youth in our society.

My own little one is talking to me about Jesus and making her own holy water to bless herself with, when I disagree with her on this she fights me on it. She is also swayed by tv ads as well when she watches them.

I would prefer my child to not be involved in an education system that is partly an 'advert' for the corrupt catholic church. But it is endemic in our society via the aforementioned peer pressure.

I will teach her about this when she is old enough in the meantime I have to put up with it. Religion should not be involved in education. Education is about real learning, it should not be about fantastical stories that are metaphors that should be taken as metaphors and not facts.

I won't get her 'baptised' and she will not be attending communion or confirmation due to this. I do not believe in the Catholic Church by their corruption and denial of current issues which should not be forgotten to not let the abuse happen again.

Hmnnn.... I dont have a problem with christenings for the sake of them. I see it as obliging a formality, much like how we make two year olds say sorry when they don't really mean it.

And while I am not anti religion, or vehimently religious either, and my son will grow up Catholic or secular-Catholic, I really do not want the state teaching him theology. It is not their place.

However, how far do you take the secularity? How much myth busting do you want?

The daughter of a woman I know, at 7 was told by her teacher there was no Santa, no fairies, etc, that they were fictions. This is in a country that takes its secularity very seriously. The girl went home in tears, was devastated.

Sleepy

A secular society doesn't have to actively dismiss superstitions, just ensure they're not part of any state institution.

metrovelvet

Sleepy wrote: »

A secular society doesn't have to actively dismiss superstitions, just ensure they're not part of any state institution.

They had a writing assignment. It was a non fiction, factual assignment. She wrote about fairies because she believes in them, being Irish and a little girl -of course she does. The teacher reprimanded her for writing about fairies when the assignment was for a factual essay. The girl insisted she wrote a factual essay and that fairies are real and the teacher then blew it off and told the whole class, there are no fairies, no Santa, no leprachauns, no tooth fairy, believing she was doing her job preserving the secularity of state education.

rccaulfield

Deliverance wrote: »

Pretty much have the same pressure from one side of the family as well. They are old school though so I can only but try to understand their 'innocent' indoctrinated views despite their years.

To me they seem to have a disability in a way, disability of being able to make a choice via the pressure of the 'masses'. Huge irony to me on the 'masses' point, plus an indicator about how the whole process works. I guess that is an ecumenical matter as Father Ted pointed out;)

I don't attend church and neither does my partner. We both have been in a bit of a dilemma for awhile about what to do i.e. bow to the pressure for the sake of it etc or stick to our guns.

This thread has given me an extra resolve to stick to my guns and not do the 'deed'. I'm glad to see others have the same view as myself.

Parents and parenting forum... Score 1 Church 0;)

Gud stuff! A word of warning-things may change after the babys born and the decision must be made! The difference in your situation seems to be your partner is inline with your way of thinking. Mine while not a practicing catholic believed we were denying our son of his big day aswell as communion and confo. I gave in the end and said we'll go ahead to keep the piece plus my wife would have been way more upset if it didn't go ahead versus me bein upset at it going ahead. I actually had a great day but id say a baby naming ceremony without the mumbo jumbo wud have been just as good if not better!

Ickle Magoo

metrovelvet wrote: »

They had a writing assignment. It was a non fiction, factual assignment. She wrote about fairies because she believes in them, being Irish and a little girl -of course she does. The teacher reprimanded her for writing about fairies when the assignment was for a factual essay. The girl insisted she wrote a factual essay and that fairies are real and the teacher then blew it off and told the whole class, there are no fairies, no Santa, no leprachauns, no tooth fairy, believing she was doing her job preserving the secularity of state education.

She clearly has no clue what secularity is then and was just being a complete kill-joy...I don't know why some people bother becoming teachers, they seem to hate kids.

Nevyn

How Strange wrote: »

So far so good although I'm sure they will ramp the pressure up once the baby is born. I fully expect my side to douse it with holy water at the first opportunity.

I know my parents had at mine with holywater and strictly under the dogma of the catholic church if you have been confirmed you can baptise, but it didn't bother me.

mohawk

metrovelvet wrote: »

However, how far do you take the secularity? How much myth busting do you want?

The daughter of a woman I know, at 7 was told by her teacher there was no Santa, no fairies, etc, that they were fictions. This is in a country that takes its secularity very seriously. The girl went home in tears, was devastated.

There is a difference between telling children that santa exists and god. Telling children that santa doesn't exist is going too far. As someone who has been an atheist for years I love christmas and intend telling my son all about santa when he is old enough. Then again I don't get offended by nativity scenes in hospitals either.

You do need to thread carefully with secularity as i think if you push it too far it you could face a backlash from religious people.