to baptise or not to baptise, that is the question

Deliverance

Thought people on this thread may be interested in this.

Starting on More4 now: 'Faith schools menace'. First part of a documentary series fronted by evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins. In this episode he argues for reconsideration of the consequences of faith education.

Nevyn

i have very little time for him but then again I have very little time for anyone who is an evangelical one true wayism pusher.

unkel

The mass hypocrisy of christening your children when you don't believe and have no intention in raising your child as a Catholic in this country has sickened me since I moved over here

That said, I am getting the feeling in the last year or two that things are changing rapidly. The posters on this thread are confirming this. People won't have it - they will not fit themselves into a religious system just to please family or schools any more. A bit like what happened in some other European countries about 50 years ago

DublinWriter

Thaedydal wrote: »

Nothing to do with the being sensative about religion I would not stand up infront of people and lie and take oaths which I had no intention of ever keeping it's a matter of personal honour.

There is a deep need in the human psyche to mark the events of hatching, matching and dispatching.

Long before the advent of Christianity there were various Pagan rites that celebrated such events.

The missus is a Protestant and we baptised our own son as Catholic a few weeks ago.

Being a Buddhist (ergo Atheist), I kept my mouth shut for the vows.

That said the occasion was a good excuse to crack open a few bottles of Moet and spend the night before making the obligatory hang-sangwiches and generally having a good family get together on the day.

I think the key to such events is not to let the Christian-rites userp you, but for you to userp the Christian-rites.

Ickle Magoo

Marking occasions is one thing; our babies had a big family party to welcome them, we intend on giving our kids a kind of "coming of age" dinner/party when they hit their mid-teens - but there is little reason to be making false oath and deliberately opting for a church-led celebration for those who are not religious or have no intention of carrying out the promises made during said celebrations as if no alternative was available. :cool:

Nevyn

DublinWriter wrote: »

There is a deep need in the human psyche to mark the events of hatching, matching and dispatching.

Long before the advent of Christianity there were various Pagan rites that celebrated such events.

There are many ways to mark such things and there are secular celebrations organise by the humanist association for those who want a place to have a gathering.

DublinWriter wrote: »

The missus is a Protestant and we baptised our own son as Catholic a few weeks ago.

Being a Buddhist (ergo Atheist), I kept my mouth shut for the vows.

But you turned up and you brougth you son so you complied.

DublinWriter wrote: »

That said the occasion was a good excuse to crack open a few bottles of Moet and spend the night before making the obligatory hang-sangwiches and generally having a good family get together on the day.

All of which can be done with out the religious indoctrination.

DublinWriter wrote: »

I think the key to such events is not to let the Christian-rites userp you, but for you to userp the Christian-rites.

Sorry but I completely disagree with that, why bother with it, why not have a secular gathering or one at home?

metrovelvet

I think if I grew up in Ireland with the legacy of theocracy and gross brainwashing I would run a mile. But growing up in the US we are all a bit Catholic lite, because it's a protestant nation and because there are so many other religions and competing village wisdoms no one ideology dominates.

I do like the rituals and I like Christmas and Easter and I wouldnt want to give those up.

I would also like my son to grow up within a religion so as to avoid an identity void or any vulnerabilities to joining a cult. It is very rare for a Catholic to convert. We have the lowest conversion rates even if we lapse. I dont go to mass every Sunday by any means, but belonging and community are very important for kids and I try to build it where I can as my son doesn't have that much family and we are living in culture that is not ours. So it made sense to christen him even if I'm only a secularised Catholic.

Ickle Magoo

Do you think joining a cult is a big concern, metro? I have to say that reason for christening never even crossed my mind.

Neither my sibling nor I are christened so I guess I know first hand how little it actually matters - no identity void or lack of community here, anyway. :pac:

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Do you think joining a cult is a big concern, metro? I have to say that reason for christening never even crossed my mind.

Neither my sibling nor I are christened so I guess I know first hand how little it actually matters - no identity void or lack of community here, anyway. :pac:

Well, it wouldnt be a gigantic concern, but there are so many cults and crackpot religions in the US that its better to be safe than sorry. I dont anticipate he'll catch polio either but I'll still vaccinate.

Im glad for you and your sister but my son has a totally different set of circumstances to contend with.

Ickle Magoo

Yeah, I guess when, like me, you consider all religions to be cult-esque and crack-pot, signing up to one to avoid the others makes no sense.

metrovelvet

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Yeah, I guess when, like me, you consider all religions to be cult-esque and crack-pot, signing up to one to avoid the others makes no sense.

Yeah I know but I don't like arch secularity either.

DublinWriter

Thaedydal wrote: »

All of which can be done with out the religious indoctrination.

Sorry but I completely disagree with that, why bother with it, why not have a secular gathering or one at home?

I really couldn't be bothered explaining to 20+ invited family and friends what a secular humanist baptism is, never mind trying to arrange one.

I would have gladly forgone the baptism were it not the case that the Roman Catholic Church still has a big hand in the running of primary education in this country.

Kids can be very cruel and pick on those who are different, plus I didn't fancy having to explain to a seven year old why he's not having a big day out like the rest of his classmates.

Non-belief is also a belief and I don't really want to impose my particular beliefs on my children. I think it's best to just go with the flow and let them make up their own minds when they are ready to do so.

I think when you take something so seriously you automatically confer it with a measure of power and influence over you. I don't take the Roman Catholic Church or it's rituals seriously so, meh...basically.

LegacyUser

Hi All,

I was just wondering if anyone else out there is thinking about or is definitely not christening their baby?

I am agnostic myself and really don't have any faith in the catholic church. I do believe in something but the whole concept of organised religion just doesn't seem right to me. I had fleetingly thought about not christening any future children in the past but now that I am expecting I need to make a decision.

The recent refusal of the Pope to accept the resignation of the two bishops has concreted my views. The Church's lack of respect & basic human decency for their followers makes me more convinced that I don't want my children to be a part of it.

However I don't want my children to be disadvantaged because of it. I have been told that I will not be able to get them into most schools which will also limit them in extra-curricular activites etc. I know that this isn't the correct reason to be christening my child but I do have to think of them first.

Any advice or opinions from someone who would know better would very much be appreciated.

shortstuff

I was born and raised Catholic and while I now dont believe in the catholic church or any prescribed religion I did have my daughter christened a while ago. The reason for this is mainly because both of my sons are being brought up in the catholic church( i still believed in it when my first son was born). The way i see it is this...I was raised catholic and then when i was old enough I made up my own mind itI didnt do me any harm to have faith in the church when i was growing up. the same will apply for my children, if they dont want to be apart of the catholic church when they are older then thats fair enough(if my eldest son tells me he doesnt want to be confirmed next year then i won't force him to go through with it). The reason I had my daughter christened was because I dont want any of my kids to grow up thinking that I differiante between them when it comes to raising them, I will give them all the same opportunities and structure as each other in so far as is possible. If however you decide not to have to baby christened, as one of my friends did recently there are alternative ways in which you can mark the special occasion of welcoming your child into this world. My friend had what she called a baby naming ceremony. It was very close family only at the ceremony and they planted a tree in a conservation park in honor of their child and this tree is now "hers" for lack of a better word. After that they had the usual type of celbration, food &drink type thing for extended family and close friends. All in all it was a very intimate thing for the immediate family but didn't cut out the rest of us who wanted to celbrate their daughthers birth with them. Hope this was of some help.

Nevyn

Why would it impact on extra-curricular activites?

Have a look at the schools in the area and get copies of thier enrollment policy and then you can compare them. Mine are in a Catholic ethos school, there wasn't a choice in the area but they got a place, only if there is a more children then places for the school year that religion becomes a factor.

Orion

My two aren't christened either. Luckily we've an Educate Together school nearby but even if you don't they can still be accepted into faith based schools. And you have the right to exclude them from religious instruction. This should not impact on any extra-curricular activities.

bugler

I won't be having our fella near a church, or church influenced school. Obviously that cuts down some options for us, and we're hoping that he'll get a place in the local ET school.

I expect some mild surprise from relatives, but I really am not bothered by what anyone else says or thinks on this. I have to do what I believe is right by my child. Doing what's right can often be more difficult than following the herd ad doing what is conventional, but having beliefs comes at a price.

If you find yourself going along with Christening or baptism for convenience you are condoning and cementing this practice in place. You are making it even harder for other secular parents. It is only by living by what we believe that things will change.

lynski

have 2 who have never been inside a church and the next one wont either. luckily we have ET places for both locally.
As an atheist i could not have them baptised.
There was a good thread on this recently here.

iMax

Although for years I've had "issues" with religion (not just catholics, all of them), was very VERY confused about it all for decades (I'm 41). I got married in a church because my wife wanted to have her walk down the aisle, (she's not very religious either).

We had our daughter baptised because we felt it would be best for her, but it was on the basis that we undertook to teach her about ALL religions when it became appropiate. She's five now & hasn't been to church yet.

She had her first day in school today & it's an RC one, ET one is too far away. I was covering her books & flicked through the religious one & while not a training manual, it is pretty biased, but I reckon it's up to me to fill in the blanks for her.

She will partake in her Communion & Confirmation as her friends do, but by that time I will have begun to tell her about all the other choices out there.

When she's old enough (13/14/15) she can make her own decisions, with my full backing.

Having her baptised & attending an RC school will give her a lot more opportunities than I could by not having her partake in them.

It's about four months now since I "came out" as an atheist & I've never felt the better about it (my mother keeps saying a prayer for me, but that's her prerogative, I wouldn't take a comforter from a baby either). My godfather is a Franciscan monk, my father in law is a JW, I was a catholic & have read a lot about the various religions (& their similarities). Chances are I can give her a better religious education than any of them. But I wouldn't force her to take on my choices any more than I'd allow anyone to force on theirs.

RIRI

We didn't have our son christened & he goes to the local national (read "catholic") school. He joins in religion class but will not be taking part the the farce that is communion & confirmation.
There was no problem gaining admission to the to the school despite the lack of a baptisim cert.
If there had been an appropiate alternative school we would have sent him there.
I certainly do not believe that christening your child or not has absolutely any bearing on their educational or extra curricular oportunities.

This has been discussed a million times before but it is appaling to think that this situation still exists. Of course, it will never improve so long as some people insist on christening/communioning/confirming their kids when they have no intention of setting foot in a church - just my two cents

Ickle Magoo

I wasn't christened or baptised and my kids haven't been christened or baptised, either. We're not religious so signing them up and making promises we can't keep would be hypocritical and we'd be embarrassed to stand up in front of a church-full of people and conduct some sham ceremony for completely irreligious ulterior motives - regardless of the consequences not being christened/baptised brings us. :cool:

allthedoyles

Ireland is mainly Christian , especially the schools ,

I believe that if you were born a Roman Catholic , that you should continue your children in the same vein .

In my opinion , they would progress through school in an easier way than if you decide to leave your child outside of the Irish Catholicism.

When your child reaches an age , they can certainly make up their own minds .

Look at the bigger picture and see beyond the Church and its Pope

Nevyn

No one is born a christian never mind a roman catholic :rolleyes:
if that was the case there would be no need for baptism.

So beacause there is a shítty patronage system in the country we should just given in
and sign our kids up to a religion we have no intrest in so they can fit in with a wrong system?

The bigger picture is that religious indoctrination should not happen in normal school hours in a republic.
Let catholic lessons be after school or as sunday school and let parishes teach those who are catholic that way.

Whats wrong with giving children real choice instead of forcing them to be christian esp when the parents are not?

metrovelvet

allthedoyles wrote: »

Ireland is mainly Christian , especially the schools ,

I believe that if you were born a Roman Catholic , that you should continue your children in the same vein .

In my opinion , they would progress through school in an easier way than if you decide to leave your child outside of the Irish Catholicism.

When your child reaches an age , they can certainly make up their own minds .

Look at the bigger picture and see beyond the Church and its Pope

Thats all very nice. But I don't like the Irish church's theology and I dont want the department of ed/the government teaching him his faith. I don't want its version of Christianity brainwashing my kid. And I am a Catholic and my son was baptised and I will teach him the way I was taught which was in the vein of, "you dont have to like it, you don't have to believe it, but you do have to know it." And stay away from the priests.

How Strange

+1
moreover, religious indoctrination should not take place in schools funded by the state. If religious organisations want to indoctrinate children in their belief systems them let them fund them out of their own coffers.

LordSutch

Should you baptise your baby into a particular religion?

http://www.educatetogether.ie/reference_articles/Ref_Art_003.html

Ickle Magoo

allthedoyles wrote: »

Ireland is mainly Christian , especially the schools ,

I believe that if you were born a Roman Catholic , that you should continue your children in the same vein .

In my opinion , they would progress through school in an easier way than if you decide to leave your child outside of the Irish Catholicism.

When your child reaches an age , they can certainly make up their own minds .

Look at the bigger picture and see beyond the Church and its Pope

That certainly doesn't hold true for everyone. Look at my kids; Educate together primary followed by protestant secondary = not being catholic is completely irrelevant and actually, the norm. :eek:

ebmma

no christening for my little boy.
we're having a naming day for him though (any excuse for a party:D)

fi1979

we're not christening our little one either. However I am from a catholic background and all my nieces and nephews have been christened. I would like to have some kind of part, but not sure how to go about it without rubbing my family's nose up the wrong way about no baptism.
She is nearly 5 months now and I wonder if its too late to mark it somehow?

ebmma

fi1979 wrote: »

we're not christening our little one either. However I am from a catholic background and all my nieces and nephews have been christened. I would like to have some kind of part, but not sure how to go about it without rubbing my family's nose up the wrong way about no baptism.
She is nearly 5 months now and I wonder if its too late to mark it somehow?

had a naming day for my 6 month old yesterday so not too late imo