Berlin 2016: Back to Basics

brownian

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Thursday: 14 miles @ 7.03 pace. This was very tough. This week and last Saturdays race finally caught up with me today in a strange way. Biomechanically I feel great. My legs are loose and my stretching of late has defintely helped. Last night I was starving and felt listless. Knowing I had a longish run today I had 2 scones last night and a large carbo rich brekie this morning, but even this morning I felt like my blood sugars where low so I had some jaffa cakes (on top of my usual banana and raisins) mid morning.

I've been practicing taking gels on my longer runs recently and I am now a firm believer these are miracle pouches of goo. After 3 miles today I was in trouble, not just tiredness, I was quite light headed and felt like I had no energy. There and then I popped the two gels and did a u-turn back for home as I was afraid a walking stint was going to be required. Within 5 minutes I felt 100 times better and managed to see out my run. It was quite cold while I was running at first as well so I wonder if this had an effect. Anyway miles 6-14 were fine and very enjoyable. Was even going to tag on another mile or two but decided not to push my luck. Looking at my log last night this week has not been ideal. It's been a case of trying to front load the majority of my runs early in the week. Will run very easy tomorrow and Saturday (hopefully) and take Sunday off. Big week next week, going to work hard on sessions so I'm as sharp as possible for the 10th of April.

That's a pretty good run - 14@7. I did 10@~7 at lunchtime, but don't know if I could have casually tagged on another 4. You're certainly getting the miles in.
Very interested to read what you say about gels - I'm experimenting with them too (got a big box of them, gotta eat them now 8-). But the last time I tried them (25 km hill run on DMW, gel at 8km and at 16km), I got savage calf cramps in the last couple of km. Might just be a coincidence, that the first time I go heavy on the gels is the first time I get cramps (and the cramps did go away)...but your experiences encourage me to try them again over the weekend.

TheRoadRunner

brownian wrote: »

That's a pretty good run - 14@7. I did 10@~7 at lunchtime, but don't know if I could have casually tagged on another 4. You're certainly getting the miles in.
Very interested to read what you say about gels - I'm experimenting with them too (got a big box of them, gotta eat them now 8-). But the last time I tried them (25 km hill run on DMW, gel at 8km and at 16km), I got savage calf cramps in the last couple of km. Might just be a coincidence, that the first time I go heavy on the gels is the first time I get cramps (and the cramps did go away)...but your experiences encourage me to try them again over the weekend.

Historically I'm a disaster with gels. They generally don't agree with my stomach and because of this I haven't taken them during marathons. I'm trying to get use to them during training at the moment and so far so good. I usually only take one at the moment though. Once I get the runs up to 20 miles I'll try and stomach an extra 2. I've read some sports nutrition books recently and talked with some sports physiologists and this has reinforced the importance of getting carbohydrates on board for me. What gels are you using? I've tried a couple and found them all to be fine but Lucozade sport ones are my favourite at the moment. Good luck with you gel munching.

PS there was nothing causal about my run today, more of a slog in the sun

Krusty_Clown

brownian wrote: »

That's a pretty good run - 14@7. I did 10@~7 at lunchtime, but don't know if I could have casually tagged on another 4. You're certainly getting the miles in.
Very interested to read what you say about gels - I'm experimenting with them too (got a big box of them, gotta eat them now 8-). But the last time I tried them (25 km hill run on DMW, gel at 8km and at 16km), I got savage calf cramps in the last couple of km. Might just be a coincidence, that the first time I go heavy on the gels is the first time I get cramps (and the cramps did go away)...but your experiences encourage me to try them again over the weekend.

Brownian: If they're not isotonic gels they should be taken with water. Otherwise they'll sit in your gut and could cause you problems (a la pikey-poo).

TheRoadRunner: I don't want to dispel the placebo effect, but there's feck all chance that the two gels would be anywhere in your system where they could possibly be doing you any good with 5 minutes. But whatever works for you!

brownian

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Brownian: If they're not isotonic gels they should be taken with water. Otherwise they'll sit in your gut and could cause you problems (a la pikey-poo).

TheRoadRunner: I don't want to dispel the placebo effect, but there's feck all chance that the two gels would be anywhere in your system where they could possibly be doing you any good with 5 minutes. But whatever works for you!

@Krusty_Clown - I don't think they are isotonic (Accel Gels). I'll spare you the promises they make that you'll suddenly become Gebrselassie, but they do say that you should take with water for best results. Trouble is, I hate to run carrying something big, heavy and sloshy like water, so we're talking about only taking them on the run up to a water station (and knowing in time that there's one coming up, etc.). I've a tough stomach generally, but who knows what sort of jet power I could find, like it or not, on half a dozen gels...only the hill out of Maam will tell! Seriously, mebbe I should get some isotonic gels to add to my collection of magic potions.

@TRR - I've now tried Torq (tasty enough, but not sure how effective) and Accel (effective, I think, but had cramps same run). Will try Accel + water over the weekend by doing 3x6.6miles, with a gel at 6.6 and 13.2.

What I am finding good as I shift up to 10 miles from 10k at lunchtime is drinking down half a litre of lucozade sport or Torq powder mix (pink grapefruit's pretty nice, and was a great help in the DCM09) in the minutes before running. I thought it'd slosh around inside me, but not a bit of it, and I've had two good runs (not quite statistically significant, but it's a good start) on the back of it.

TheRoadRunner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

TheRoadRunner: I don't want to dispel the placebo effect, but there's feck all chance that the two gels would be anywhere in your system where they could possibly be doing you any good with 5 minutes. But whatever works for you!

True, 5 minutes may have been a bit of a slight exaggeration also. But was no longer than 10 minutes. I'm guessing that may not make a huge difference. Go o the placebo. I did take some water on board also so maybe it just gave me a feeling of well being. There was a thread in the main forum a couple of weeks ago relating carbohydrate swashing around the gob with an increase in performance even when the carbs aren't ingested. Maybe I experienced that

Abhainn

TRR gels on 14 mile runs:rolleyes:
I'm sure you you know this but anyway:
The aim should be to get though any run including the marathon long runs without consuming ANY gels. The secret is to teach the body it doesn't need them by learning it to take the energy needed from fat cells instead of glygocen stores. Ok it does take time for the body to "learn" this process but it can be weaned off this unnecessary energy intake through time

On marathon day when gels are consumed its as if you suddendly get a turbo boost.

TheRoadRunner

Abhainn wrote: »

TRR gels on 14 mile runs:rolleyes:
I'm sure you you know this but anyway:
The aim should be to get though any run including the marathon long runs without consuming ANY gels. The secret is to teach the body it doesn't need them by learning it to take the energy needed from fat cells instead of glygocen stores. Ok it does take time for the body to "learn" this process but it can be weaned off this unnecessary energy intake through time

On marathon day when gels are consumed its as if you suddendly get a turbo boost.

Hmmm. I'm currently taking them on 14 mile runs to get my stomach use to them. Not necessarily for an energy boost. I can see the logic of not consuming gels on long runs but I wonder is there any real science to back this up? I'd rather take gels and hit my splits then not take them boink on longer training runs in the hope I'm going to get an extra kick on marathon day. Im open to correction but I'm going to keep taking the gels on at least one run a week.

Abhainn

I understand your problem of gels and your stomach.
But there is plenty written about this subject though. When you take gels on long runs your body then expects this "lift" all the time. On marathon day the boost you may want not be so much of a boost, as taking of the gels is "normal".
The fuel you burn on long runs comes from glycogen stored in the muscles, the liver and fat cell breakdown. The secret though is to teach your body to take the fuel you need mostly from fat stores. You do this by ensuring your heart rate in operating in the aerobic zone. Efficiency is the key. If you were a car you need to work like a good diesel engine, with turbo preferably.

In long run preparation one can go to the extreme of taking on your long run nearly on an empty tank i.e. no breakfast and no carb intake on route. To explain further when one awakes in the morning glycogen levels in the liver are always low and we have breakfast to replenish those levels.

In my early days of the long runs I rarely took gels on my long runs though I did take a home made fluid concoction of water + glucose + lemon juice (4 x200ml fuel belt) . I gradually reduced this to 3x 200ml to 2 and then 1.
These days I prefer 1 wheetabix and 1 slice of toast before my long run.

Now tell us you secret goal for Berlin. Is it 2:37:18?;)

kennyb3

Just to throw my 2c in here but there is another line of thought out there that says - train better, race better. If taking gels helps improve the quality, lenght and pace of long runs, then why not do it.

For an experienced marathoner like TRR bonking during a marathon shouldnt be an issue as they ll know how to carb load and fuel during the race. As long as he takes sufficent carbs and gels during the marathon he should be fine and the better quality training should replace any gel 'boost'.

Just a different perspective.

TheRoadRunner

I'm from the same school of thought as Kenny. I'd rather take the gels in the hope the quality of my training will be better.

I have some thoughts on this but I have nothing to back them up but I think I'm going to look into it a little more. As I understand it a marathoner when running optimally uses a ratio of 3:1 carbohydrate to fat when producing energy. Problems arise when glycogen is depleted after mile 20 and the ratio is reduced, this is when one hits the wall. I'm sure it is possible to increase the bodies ability to metabolise fat (by not taking gels in training) but I doubt you can ever compensate for the loss of glycogen experienced at mile 20 and I realise this is not the point Abhainn is making. Fat is broken down at a much slower rate than glycogen. Fair enough a hit of glucose during the race might give you a boost (if your body isn't use to it) but at the same time it could mess up your marathon if you aren't familiar with taking gels as is my case. Also if you hit the wall in training or come close to it your overall pace, stride length and technique will suffer. I'd rather keep topped up and train optimally. Just my take as I said I've nothing to back this up but it will be the approach I tend on taking. I haven't taken gels during any of my other marathon long runs but do take glucose sweets but you might as well be pissing into the wind taking them IMO.

As for target marathon pace I'm going to train for sub 2.35. Will it be easy, no, can I do it, most definitely if I train properly. Easy to pick a time but I'm determined to train for this marathon properly. Obviously this may be adjusted upwards if injury/life interveens or downwards if I get my $hit together.

Friday: 10 miles at 7.45 pace, nice easy recovery. Hope to do a few easy miles tomorrow and maybe Sunday although may take it off. I'm heading to a stags now to poison my body.

shels4ever

There is some information on the low fuel long run on the Mcmillan site, but he does point out that this is his personal view and doesn’t have facts to back up the benefit.
It also says that this would be only for a particular type of long run and quality session should be fueled.

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/marathonlongrun.htm the Post Script to the article isnt too bad.

TheRoadRunner

Not a bad end to the week all things considered. Was on a great alcohol fueled stags and as well as drinking a fair the auld diet took an awful hammering.

Saturday: 7 miles at 6.40 pace. Run along country roads. Didn't know the area at all but was nice to sweat some of the alcohol out and burn some of the many calories consumed Friday evening.

Sunday: Was going to take a complete rest day but did 4 gentle mile instead in the evening. Had a long drive home so was good to stretch the legs out and the bit of exercise helped reset my system after a weekend of alcohol abuse.

~65 miles for the week. Hope to hit something similar again this week but this weekend is a bit in the air again so will have to train when I can fit it in when I can.

TheRoadRunner

Disaster, RoadRunner Jnr has vomiting bug (again) so running not a priority this week so far. For all our sakes I hope somebody can sort out the health system, was unlucky enough to have to visit Tallaght hospital yesterday, 20 people on trollies. Thankfully we were out after 5 hours. Have managed to get some running in however. On the downside I'm waiting for the vomiting bug to kick the **** out of me. Feeling fine at the moment so hopefully I've dodged a bullet.

Monday: 8 miles @ 7.07 pace along canal and trails

Tuesday: 10 miles @ 7.03 pace on back roads

Wednesday: 4.5 miles @ 7.41 pace with dog. Lucky to get out at all.

Thursday: 10 miles total, 6 @ 5.50 pace. Delighted with this as was late and didn't thing I'd get a run in at all. Had also had my dinner only 2 hours before running which doesn't usually help with a sustained effort but luckily enough I digested the main bulk of it quick enough tonight.

Not too sure about rest of week but if I manage to get a longish run in either Saturday/Sunday I'll consider it a good week all things considered. Sometimes the resolve to get out when the **** hits the fan can be more beneficial then anything gained physically.

TheRoadRunner

8 miles @ 7.19 pace in the mud, rain & wind. Lovely. Still disease free, the vector hasn't managed to spread his sickness to me yet

TheRoadRunner

12 miles @ 6.30 pace

On baby sitting duty today so chances of a run were slim but managed to wrangle a sitter for what I thought would be 30-40 minute run. Had phone with me and got call to say jnr was sleeping and some $hite sitter was interested in was on telly so managed to get 12 miles in. Was kind of raging as could have got a little more in but didn't want to take advantage. This will probably be my long run of week and although shorter than I would have liked it was definitely a bonus run. I suppose you could call this a progression/predator/insert_makey_uppy_name_here run as last 6 miles were at 6.15 pace. Pace increased due to me not knowing my luck after phone call rather then deliberate increase in pace.

TheRoadRunner

10 miles @ 6.29. Wasn't in the mood for this one as I had planned on doing after 8pm but then found out this wouldn't be possible so had to bale it out at 5pm. Was cold, I was hungry and a little tired but I need to get some consistency in my mileage. Pace was faster than I would have liked (was aiming for 7min/mile) but it was quite cool and legs felt great so just clipped along nicely to stay warm (was actually well wrapped up). I've noticed a definite improvement in fitness the last few weeks currently 7 minute miles feel like what 7.40s did before Christmas. 6.30s feel like 7s etc etc.

Hit ~62 miles this week. I had hoped to be in the 70s for the month of March but things haven't gone to plan. Most of it not my fault. Missed a double this week and long run was a little shorter than I would have liked but I have no complaints and it's the first time in a while I've put 2*60+ miles together back to back.

Next week I'm running the MSB 5k on the 20th (Sunday). It's my clubs race and I'd like to be a scoring man on the team if possible so will tailor the week to hopefully be close to rested on the day. Having said that my eyes are firmly on the national 10k and I need some long steady miles in the legs so can't ease off as if this weeks race was a major target.

TheRoadRunner

Monday: 8 miles @ 7.30 pace. Was out after 8pm. Absolutely lovely evening, nice and cool but was well wrapped up and really enjoyed this one.

Tuesday: 12.5 miles @ 6.31. This was a strange run, was supposed to meet a couple of friends at the 5 mile mark but they never materialised. I enjoyed the first 5 on my own but was looking forward to a bit of banter with the lads. I'm a big fan of running with other people. I was tempted to cut run short to 8/9 miles but managed to convince myself to stay out longer. I enjoyed the run as it is a cracking day but it the last 3 miles felt a bit monotonous.

Rest of the week will be handy mileage. I might try in a few short reps on Thursday to get the legs on high alert for the shock they are going to get on Sunday. Last time I ran this race I ran 16.22. I was going very well at the time and actually expected to get close to 16 minutes. I'd love to run something similar to last time but will take anything under 16.30. It's hard to figure out what sort of race shape I'm in. Only one way to find out I suppose

TheRoadRunner

Wednesday: 8.25 miles @ 7.05 pace along canal bank and trails. Cracking days, probably nicest day of the year for a run in my opinion. Weighed myself this morning and I'm officially the lightest I've been in 13 years.

TheRoadRunner

Thursday: 10 miles @ 6.45 pace. Great jaunt this afternoon. Headed out and ran to local park (2.5 miles) ran loop in park (5 miles on grass) and 2.5 miles home. When I hit the park i was kind of disapointed I hadn't driven and ran two loop of park as underfoot was perfect and very gentle on the legs. After completing park loop I was actually glad to be leaving. I got some serious abuse from two different groups of A-holes knacker drinking. First group didn't bother me so much but I seriously wanted to knock the $hite out of the second group, avoided a running rage incident and ignored them though .

Really looking forward to Sunday's race. Legs feel great, todays run felt like an incredibly easy jog. Legs are also very loose and I have zero niggles. Not very often I can say this but I feel close to 100% fit biomechanically (aerobic fitness could be better and will be in a couple of months).

Was having a look at dates trying to plot training for the next couple of months and have decided to skip next weeks Dunboyne 4 miler. I think 2 solid hard uninterrupted training weeks are needed before the national 10k. I love racing but eyes are firmly on the 10k so need to get the head down and give it everything.

shels4ever

was expecting some crap from them also but managed to get away with it today, the party was only starting when I was there. Also cant remember girls dressing so slutty when I was younger...

TheRoadRunner

shels4ever wrote: »

Also cant remember girls dressing so slutty when I was younger...

Thank you, I was a bit shocked myself and it takes a lot to shock me. It was also fecking freezing today. A few kidney infections tomorrow I'm sure

TheRoadRunner

Friday: 8+ miles at 6.45 pace. Similar run to yesterday except shortened the park lap. Found it hard to keep pace civilised early on. However, I was a little tired on the way home especially as the last 2 miles are (very) slightly uphill. Hopefully I didn't overdo it this week and legs will be nice and fresh for Sunday. Just had a nice batch and will stretch and roll the living day lights out of my legs now.

Have resisted the offers of pints 2 days in a row now. even had a green light from the OH. I explained to one of the lads I had to stay off the booze as last time I ran this race I got chicked by 3 girls. He nearly choked on his cup of tea. He had kinky visions

TheRoadRunner

Saturday: 4+ miles @ 7 min mile pace. Short run to shake legs out for tomorrows race. Plan is to head off at 16.15 pace and see what happens. I died a death the last 2k of this last time I ran so key is not to get carried away in the first mile. Wind is howling outside my window at the moment. Hope it dies down tomorrow morning

BeepBeep67

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Plan is to head off at 16.15 pace and see what happens.

Is that mile pace or km pace ? Have a cracker you have a sub 16 in dem dar legs.

TheRoadRunner

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Is that mile pace or km pace ? Have a cracker you have a sub 16 in dem dar legs.

true but not today

TheRoadRunner

Sunday 9 miles total: 5km race in 16.05. Ran the perfect race for my current level of fitness. Will post more tomorrow, too many beers.

TheRoadRunner

Sunday: 9 miles total, 5km race in 16.05. Very happy with race. Haven't done any sort of 5k specific training so was pleasantly surprised I was able to go close to 16 minutes for 5km. Was a little windy out on certain sections of the course and definitely cost me a few seconds. Played it smart by not going off too hard as in previous years. Some of my splits (see below) would lead you to believe I ran erratically but it was a good sustained effort but did push an extra bit on the final km. I was constantly moving up through the field. Actually finished race quite strongly and feel there is a good 10k on the cards in 3 weeks time.

1km - 3.08
2km - 3.14
3km - 3.17
4km - 3.20
5km - 3.06

brownian

That's some savage speed. Just when you think you're running's going well, you have to go and look at TRR's log...16:05:eek:

Fair play.

TheRoadRunner

brownian wrote: »

That's some savage speed. Just when you think you're running's going well, you have to go and look at TRR's log...16:05:eek:

Fair play.

Thanks but to put it in perspective the winner ran 14.20 solo. Now that is moving

aero2k

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Thanks but to put it in perspective the winner ran 14.20 solo. Now that is moving

Yeah, I think it's almost WR pace - for a marathon...
There's always someone faster to look up to - unless your name is Haile!

Fantastic running TRR, you're in great shape for the national 10k.