Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

monument

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Busy footpaths, trams drivers can barley see what's coming from the right if there is a eastbound tram stopped there. It's a pretty dangerous set up and it's been busy just adds to the problem.

What do you mean coming from the right?

People walking on the footpath on the right? Surly they have a better view than if there was a tram beside them at a normal stop?

Spanish Eyes

O'Connell Bridge has been widened on the West side. It is brilliant, that crossing was always heaving. Hopefully when Westmoreland Street footpath is also widened, pedestrians will be able to move around a bit better.

Be positive, it's going well.

I accept that buses will have a job to do on Bachelor's Walk, but if it goes belly up, something will have to be done about it. Trial and error is right.

Jamie2k9

monument wrote: »

What do you mean coming from the right?

People walking on the footpath on the right? Surly they have a better view than if there was a tram beside them at a normal stop?

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.347641,-6.2657483,3a,75y,273.95h,71.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sV-VMKpA_0OPKRKAJgP53Hg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

If there is an inbound stopped, trams moving outbound have very poor visibility of people which may be crossing at the junction.

BonnieSituation

monument wrote: »

What are you talking about?

Where in Amsterdam are there anything like the (1) Parnell Street / O'Connell Street junction? (2) College Street / Pearse Street / etc junction? OR (3) the Parnell Street / Parnell Square? Or (4) the St Stephen's Green / Dawson Street junction? Or the Constitution Hill?

Compared to Dublin there's feck all buses and Amsterdam has a hell of a lot of more space given over to bicycles, even on smaller streets.

Amsterdam overall has more extensive segregated of trams from everything and more space given to cycling (both segregated and not).

The only junction in Amsterdam that I can think of which even comes close to most of the cross city junctions is: (1) in a lower traffic area, including few buses, and (2) a known poor design which they plan to address and know was a mistake not to address 20 years or more ago.

What are you on about?

I thought this madness had subsided. My argument was so bloody clear re the hullabaloo that was being talked about re cyclists and tram/track interfaces.

There are several junctions I've crossed in the Dam on a bike where tram tracks cross each other creating a hazard for cyclists but these don't necessitate such over the top language as used in the referenced report as "no-go". I think it's been accepted that it won't be as bad out there on OCS once trams are in use. Welcome to last week.

markpb

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What are you on about?

I thought this madness had subsided. My argument was so bloody clear re the hullabaloo that was being talked about re cyclists and tram/track interfaces.

There are several junctions I've crossed in the Dam on a bike where tram tracks cross each other creating a hazard for cyclists but these don't necessitate such over the top language as used in the referenced report as "no-go". I think it's been accepted that it won't be as bad out there on OCS once trams are in use. Welcome to last week.

Just because you've stated your opinion does not mean that others have accepted it. Fact and opinion are two different things.

BonnieSituation

markpb wrote: »

Just because you've stated your opinion does not mean that others have accepted it. Fact and opinion are two different things.

True. And the converse is the same. Unfortunately short of doing a survey and a report on this issue, it will remain purely anecdotal. But I thought real world experience counted for something.

Others have failed categorically to prove to me how it will be such an awful time for cyclist on OCS come December. I just can't see it.

MJohnston

BonnieSituation wrote: »

True. And the converse is the same. Unfortunately short of doing a survey and a report on this issue, it will remain purely anecdotal. But I thought real world experience counted for something.

Others have failed categorically to prove to me how it will be such an awful time for cyclist on OCS come December. I just can't see it.

Nobody has to prove anything to you - I've already stated that I think there will by increased danger for cyclists brought by the compressed traffic space, the exposed tram tracks, and the trams themselves. You chose to dismiss that because Amsterdam, that's your choice, but it doesn't mean my statement wasn't valid.

BonnieSituation

MJohnston wrote: »

Nobody has to prove anything to you - I've already stated that I think there will by increased danger for cyclists brought by the compressed traffic space, the exposed tram tracks, and the trams themselves. You chose to dismiss that because Amsterdam, that's your choice, but it doesn't mean my statement wasn't valid.

They don't but there's a prevailing idea that somehow my opinion is less valid because of its non-conformity. All y'alls opinions aren't any more valid merely because of the groupthink on display.

I used Amsterdam as it came to me as somewhere else I have cycled recently where there is interface between trams and cyclists.


There will be increased "danger". Of course there will be. The increased danger comes as a result of more people coming into contact with more vehicles. That isn't in dispute. No one would die in plane crashes if there were no planes!

But my argument that it won't be as bad as some are making out and in fact once trams are rolling it will be fine.

To say that it will be "no-go" for cyclists is just pure tabloidism.

MJohnston

But you're the one who called it a no-go! I believe the original news report that started this debate said Henry Street would become inaccessible, which is not as inflammatory as you make it seem by saying "no go".

If you accept that there will be an increased danger of using OCS, then you must also accept that access to streets off of it will be impacted. Not outright, but enough that the planning process should have included extra cycling infrastructure to retain (or indeed improve) accessibility.

BonnieSituation

MJohnston wrote: »

But you're the one who called it a no-go! I believe the original news report that started this debate said Henry Street would become inaccessible, which is not as inflammatory as you make it seem by saying "no go".

If you accept that there will be an increased danger of using OCS, then you must also accept that access to streets off of it will be impacted. Not outright, but enough that the planning process should have included extra cycling infrastructure to retain (or indeed improve) accessibility.

Access to streets will be naturally affected as new traffic movements are in place. But until trams are rolling down OCS we can't make a conclusive call on just how inaccessible it will be. I don't believe it will hamper too many. Others disagree.

What we can do is look at how interfacing with trams and cyclists has occurred over the last 13 years and how it was meant to be a sh!tshow back in 2004 when Luas launched and we can all agree that in act it has proved otherwise.

We can also look at how other cities have coped with increased on-street tram activity. Ultimately I think the use for the NTA report was something to just highlight potential conflict and it is useful in that sense. But all will be fine come December. Besides the weather will be a bigger factor again then!

MJohnston

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Access to streets will be naturally affected as new traffic movements are in place. But until trams are rolling down OCS we can't make a conclusive call on just how inaccessible it will be. I don't believe it will hamper too many. Others disagree.

Actually we can both make calls based on the tracks that have already been laid, and educated estimates about the rest.

What we can do is look at how interfacing with trams and cyclists has occurred over the last 13 years and how it was meant to be a sh!tshow back in 2004 when Luas launched and we can all agree that in act it has proved otherwise.

I wasn't around for any of the debates around the original Luas lines, but they have to be taken in context - all of the existing Luas tracking does not pass through any area which is remotely like OCS. This is the first time we'll have tram tracks running on an exceptionally busy street in a parallel direction to cyclists. I actually think College Green will be even more dangerous compared to OCS, but again, these are new issues, not repeats of what happened with the original Luas.

We can also look at how other cities have coped with increased on-street tram activity. Ultimately I think the use for the NTA report was something to just highlight potential conflict and it is useful in that sense. But all will be fine come December. Besides the weather will be a bigger factor again then!

Yes, the weather combined with the newly exposed tracks will be a huge factor, I agree with that. Cyclists are going to have to avoid this area for safety, imo.

monument

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What are you on about?

I thought this madness had subsided. My argument was so bloody clear re the hullabaloo that was being talked about re cyclists and tram/track interfaces.

There are several junctions I've crossed in the Dam on a bike where tram tracks cross each other creating a hazard for cyclists but these don't necessitate such over the top language as used in the referenced report as "no-go". I think it's been accepted that it won't be as bad out there on OCS once trams are in use. Welcome to last week.

It might not be as bad as some people or reports think.

In fact, I think the report from the NTA is both over the top (that places will become inaccessible) and unrealistic in different ways (people will follow suggestions when they seem to be only providing halfhearted alternative routes).

But I would still content that's there's few or no comparable junctions in Amsterdam which as as bad as the bunch of Luas Cross City junctions, especially the larger ones.

Amsterdam generally has more segregated for cycling (where people will be crossing at bicycle lights, not with motorists behind them), and even where there's some mixing with motorists while crossing tracks, there's usually cycle lanes.

There's also far, far fewer buses, and most mixed junctions in Amsterdam seem to have low flows of general traffic too.

I would take a bet that at least one of the junctions you're thinking about is with Raadhuisstraat or next to it to the west of Dam Square -- and those are known problematic design even without buses and overall low speed traffic.

yer man!

I wonder if the cross city luas has any updated signaling technology? I was driving down by Connolly today and the lights were green to traffic yet the luas went right through the junction, shocked everyone and horns were blaring at the luas driver. Nearly caused a massive accident. Do the the lights simply rely on the driver to stop or do they not detect a luas crossing and turn to red for traffic automatically?

LXFlyer

yer man! wrote: »

I wonder if the cross city luas has any updated signaling technology? I was driving down by Connolly today and the lights were green to traffic yet the luas went right through the junction, shocked everyone and horns were blaring at the luas driver. Nearly caused a massive accident. Do the the lights simply rely on the driver to stop or do they not detect a luas crossing and turn to red for traffic automatically?

The trams have their own signals which are integrated with those for other traffic.

If a tram went across a junction while the lights were green for other traffic then that's a serious problem - it could be a SPAD (signal passed at danger).

Sierra Oscar

Luas cabinets provoke College Green plaza row

Is anyone else taken aback by the haphazard nature in which these cabinets have seemingly been erected? It looks and feels messy - multiple different sized cabinets, no uniformity in spacing and different colours.

Jamie2k9

The ones in college green look particularly bad make worse by a couple of different ones and all in a single line. I suspect they are not all part of the Luas.

Along the red line there tends to be only a single box (at most junctions, max two) and they are in less noticeable locations like side street, backed onto a wall etc.

A singe unit prehaps with a city map wrapped around might be better looking or prehaps some sort of green area with some seating to make them less noticeable.

xper

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Luas cabinets provoke College Green plaza row

Is anyone else taken aback by the haphazard nature in which these cabinets have seemingly been erected? It looks and feels messy - multiple different sized cabinets, no uniformity in spacing and different colours.

Presumably these were all indicated on the railway order plans? That was the time to object/get the design right in the first place. The ones at Trinity do look god awful but its the same crap at every major signalled junction around the city - purely utilitarian yokes scattered at random across the public realm. Even if they were in a single evenly spaced row in identical cabinets, it would be a vast improvement. Or a single large cabinet that had other functions such as information/art display

bk

I have to say it looks like an extremely unprofessional job. It just goes to show how little thought some engineers put into the street space and how it will effect pedestrians.

I find it very hard to believe that they can't come up with a better location. I also don't see why it can't be underground. It feels like they just went with the cheapest, laziest solution.

In fairness to Eir, they refrained from putting their FTTC cabs in the core city center because of this issue and are instead planning to go with a more expensive underground FTTH solution. Luas planners really sohuld have known better.

BonnieSituation

We're brutal.

I pass them and similar sh!tshows most days and I just assumed they were placed that way temporarily awaiting finishing works.

loyatemu

half-assed job. There are loads of things they could do to improve those, at the very least they should have been put up against a wall (the boxes, not the engineers :pac:)

MJohnston

bk wrote: »

I have to say it looks like an extremely unprofessional job. It just goes to show how little thought some engineers put into the street space and how it will effect pedestrians.

Which is probably fine - engineers are engineers and they're supposed to come up with the most efficient and cost-effective way of building a system. The problem really is that nobody in Dublin City Council seems to have any adequate vision of Public Realm, so there was no-one around to actually look at the plans and revise them.

Hopefully the Plaza will go ahead and provide an opportunity to tidy it all up a bit. Even a larger shell encompassing all the smaller boxes would be preferable to this. Like those Bord Gais boxes down on the Docklands quays.

Dardania

Cut an ope in the TCD railings, lob them in there. Be grand. off the street.

:angel:

crushproof

Back in Dublin for a few days and while I was happy to see the works almost completed I was pretty disappointed with the finished look.
Does anyone in this country know anything about public realm design? Those boxes could easily be situated in a more hidden place and/or covered with some sort of information booth. Heck I wouldn't even mind if they were covered with a more attractive advertising board. 
Also what were they thinking with the wiring and associated poles. Why couldn't the wires be attached to existing buildings similar to most European cities. The motorway style poles have been plonked down almost in the middle of the path along Bank of Ireland (of course the surrounding infilled with tarmac and the heritage paving stone taken away). Fair enough in the suburbs or other parts of the inner city but on College Green it's a joke. It's just more street clutter. 
Honestly I despair at the state of the city. It could be so much f**ing better looking but it feels so pointless complaining.

Spanish Eyes

crushproof wrote: »

Back in Dublin for a few days and while I was happy to see the works almost completed I was pretty disappointed with the finished look.
Does anyone in this country know anything about public realm design? Those boxes could easily be situated in a more hidden place and/or covered with some sort of information booth. Heck I wouldn't even mind if they were covered with a more attractive advertising board. 
Also what were they thinking with the wiring and associated poles. Why couldn't the wires be attached to existing buildings similar to most European cities. The motorway style poles have been plonked down almost in the middle of the path along Bank of Ireland (of course the surrounding infilled with tarmac and the heritage paving stone taken away). Fair enough in the suburbs or other parts of the inner city but on College Green it's a joke. It's just more street clutter. 
Honestly I despair at the state of the city. It could be so much f**ing better looking but it feels so pointless complaining.

I share your disappointment and helplessness in the face of this clusterfk.

I think I heard a rep from LUAS saying they will not be doing anything about the unsightly boxes "at this point, as it would delay the opening of LCC".

So maybe there will be some re alignment when Plaza gets going. Here's hoping!

tylercheribini

Why don't Dublin City Council commission some high quality artwork for those boxes?

Jamie2k9

crushproof wrote: »

Back in Dublin for a few days and while I was happy to see the works almost completed I was pretty disappointed with the finished look.
Does anyone in this country know anything about public realm design? Those boxes could easily be situated in a more hidden place and/or covered with some sort of information booth. Heck I wouldn't even mind if they were covered with a more attractive advertising board. 
Also what were they thinking with the wiring and associated poles. Why couldn't the wires be attached to existing buildings similar to most European cities. The motorway style poles have been plonked down almost in the middle of the path along Bank of Ireland (of course the surrounding infilled with tarmac and the heritage paving stone taken away). Fair enough in the suburbs or other parts of the inner city but on College Green it's a joke. It's just more street clutter. 
Honestly I despair at the state of the city. It could be so much f**ing better looking but it feels so pointless complaining.

BOI, TCD, Weston Hotel would of most likely rejected having wires attached to their buildings, they are not your average building (Abbey Street) where such wires run along some buildings on the red line.

BOI won't even remove those railings for the new plaza (I support their view) but wires would be a total no no with them.

Why don't Dublin City Council commission some high quality artwork for those boxes?

They have only been up 5 minutes, give them time at least.

tylercheribini

Jamie2k9 wrote:

They have only been up 5 minutes, give them time at least.

Was merely suggesting an idea, not a timeframe.

Zebra3

Was in the centre of Dublin last week for the first time in ages and all those poles along College Green and OCS look truly awful.

Couldn't agree more with one of the previous posters.

marno21

Zebra3 wrote: »

Was in the centre of Dublin last week for the first time in ages and all those poles along College Green and OCS look truly awful.

Couldn't agree more with one of the previous posters.

No emissions or reduction in air quality from them though, which I see as a marked positive.

Muahahaha

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

BOI won't even remove those railings for the new plaza (I support their view) but wires would be a total no no with them.

Can I ask why? Personally I have always thought that removing the Bank of Ireland railings would really help open up the whole College Green plaza. Also if you see any old photos of the area with the railings not there it is remarkable how much better it looks.

My guess is BOI dont want it for fear of losing the car park spaces they have inside the railings and a fear of hoardes of Spanish students sitting on their steps.