Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

stevedublin

lawred2 wrote: »

Something that should have been started when the Dart was electrified. Now that was a bad call.

uh... why? The Dart is so popular that platforms had to be extended a few years ago as trains were not long enough for all the passengers.

Stephen15

strassenwo!f wrote: »

No, the trams could run just as frequently. The proposed 4-minute frequency at, for example, the stop on Marlborough Street is unaffected by the origin of the tram (i.e. whether it's coming in from Broombridge or has just turned around the loop from the Parnell Monument).

If all trams were coming from Broombridge that would mean that you would have to provide more trams and drivers there isin't an endless supply of these things you know.

The only way you are going to provide a 4 minute on Marlborough Street with the resources which will be in place by the time the line opens is to have some trams starting on Parnell Street. Unless you think there should be more trams bought to allow all services to run from Broombridge you may have a point but currently its only possible to have some trams run from Parnell.

D.L.R.

Stephen15 wrote: »

If all trams were coming from Broombridge that would mean that you would have to provide more trams and drivers there isin't an endless supply of these things you know.

Transport in Ireland is woefully under funded. There is funding if you provide a more normal level of investment. Saying we don't have the money is just another pituful excuse to justify half baked solutions that will be overwhelmed quickly like all other half baked Dublin projects such as the existing tram lines or the original M50 etc.

"Oh this will be a great success" - well duh, people are gonna use a line in the middle of Dublin. No sh_t Sherlock.

Will it COPE, thats the question. Dublin city will be a mess after this, rather the periphary around the OCS axis will be a mess as all the restricted flows get pushed on to surrounding streets.

CatInABox

D.L.R. wrote: »

Transport in Ireland is woefully under funded. There is funding if you provide a more normal level of investment. Saying we don't have the money is just another pituful excuse to justify half baked solutions that will be overwhelmed quickly like all other half baked Dublin projects such as the existing tram lines or the original M50 etc.

"Oh this will be a great success" - well duh, people are gonna use a line in the middle of Dublin. No sh_t Sherlock.

Will it COPE, thats the question. Dublin city will be a mess after this, rather the periphary around the OCS axis will be a mess as all the restricted flows get pushed on to surrounding streets.

In truth, Dublin was a mess before these changes were put in place, and it'll be a mess afterwards too. Until there's enough reliable public transport, car numbers won't reduce down enough to make a difference. Luas Cross City will take a good number of cars off the road, the changes along the quays will take another batch off as more busses will be a viable alternative to driving, but there'll still be too many cars, too much traffic.

More investment in mass public transport is the obvious, and indeed, only, answer. Metro North will help significantly with this, large areas of the north city and further out to large commuter towns will have a fast reliable rail link into the city centre, and most of those cars will be taken off the road. Dart Underground is the long term dream, that will essentially remove enough cars that those people who have no other choice to drive will be able to drive into the city and back out relatively hassle free.

All in all, I think the changes made to traffic patterns will be worth, despite the potential for disruption.

wakka12

Is there any plan, any at all no matter how far in future, to expand the line beyond broom bridge as well?

marno21

Deedsie wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056158305

There were previous suggestions on possibly extending the line from Broombridge to Finglas and onto an M50 P&R & Metro West.

I think a lot of the proposed route is protected for potentially extending the line in future

Protect the route by all means but wouldn't be in the top 5 priorities for PT in Dublin.

strassenwo!f

Stephen15 wrote: »

If all trams were coming from Broombridge that would mean that you would have to provide more trams and drivers there isin't an endless supply of these things you know.

I imagine that the planners have come up with a good initial solution, until it is known what the demand patterns are.

But it is an interesting puzzle, this, as to how many more drivers or trams would be required to provide a 4-minute service to Broombridge.

My understanding of what is going to happen, under the current plan, would broadly be this. St. Stephen's Green is going to be the southern end point for two circuits for trams: a longer St. Stephen's Green - Parnell Monument - Broombridge - Parnell Monument - Marlborough Street - St. Stephen's Green circuit (C1) and a shorter St. Stephen's Green - Parnell Monument - Marlborough Street St. Stephen's Green circuit (C2)

(Anything that happens south of St. Stephen's Green is pretty much irrelevant to these circuits, as trams from these circuits will be sharing that line, at approximately 4-minute intervals).

As I understand it, the SSG - Broombridge journey will take about 20 minutes, so - with driver turnaround time - C1 should take about 44 minutes to complete. C2, which will run without a break in the relevant area, should take about 16 minutes to complete.

At any given time, under the current plan - which is for 8-minute headways on each of the circuits, with an overall 4-minute headway in the busiest parts of the city (i.e. St. Stephen's Green, Trinity, O'Connell Street, Parnell Monument and Marlborough Street) - my reading is that there would 5-6 trams travelling on C1 and 3 trams travelling on C2.

(For example, to fit in with the initial layout, and the times involved, these trams on C2 might be at St. Stephen's Green (heading north), the Parnell Monument (turning the corner) and at St. Stephen's Green (heading south); The trams on C1 would be approximately at Trinity, Broadstone, Phibsboro/Cabra (heading north) via Broombridge (driver turnaround, and a bit of a break), Phibsboro/Cabra (heading south), Broadstone, Parnell Monument, St. Stephen's Green).

A total of 8-9 trams on the circuits at any one time. I may not have got this right, but it's not going to be less than this.

If only C1 were to be used, and I feel that the planners were right not to go for this in the initial stages, it would be necessary to have 11-12 trams on the go at any one time, to achieve a 4-minute headway along the entire route.

So, in direct response to your post, Stephen15, any change from the current plan to only a St. Stephen's - Broombridge service would require, by my reckoning, and at the simplest level, an extra 3-4 trams and an extra 3-4 drivers.

There are obviously limits to how long trams can travel without being serviced and cleaned, and how long drivers can work without a break. Thus, my 3-4 estimation above would certainly be eventually higher, to take account of driver rosters and tram maintenance.

How much more this would be, I cannot say. But it is unlikely to be huge.

Stephen15 wrote: »

The only way you are going to provide a 4 minute on Marlborough Street with the resources which will be in place by the time the line opens is to have some trams starting on Parnell Street. Unless you think there should be more trams bought to allow all services to run from Broombridge you may have a point but currently its only possible to have some trams run from Parnell.

But, I don't think the plan is to have trains starting from Parnell. As I mentioned above, the plan (as I understand it) is to have some trains travelling from Cherrywood/Sandyford and back via this city centre loop.

wakka12

Deedsie wrote: »

Luas Cross City is four months away from carrying passengers and it has already improved public transport along the quays. I think you are talking rubbish, it will be a great success.

It will be a success but it really is just a very minor alteration to the PT system overall and has been 4 years of avoiding tackling a more pressing issue of the metro

Muahahaha

wakka12 wrote: »

It will be a success but it really is just a very minor alteration to the PT system overall and has been 4 years of avoiding tackling a more pressing issue of the metro

Well hopefully we get a solid announcement on the Metro in October. We were never going to get the go ahead for the Metro with a Taoiseach from Mayo, now that a Dublin Taoiseach is in place hopefully it will finally happen and funds are committed

strassenwo!f

Deedsie wrote: »

I guess I just like to focus on the positive improvements every now and again. Did you see the census numbers for how people get to work in Ireland? 60000 ish by rail 58000 ish by bicycle. Rail has received a hell of a lot more funding than cycling over the years.

I'm not sure how cycling has managed to make its way into a thread about the LUAS cross-city line, but there are several reasons why rail (or bus) gets, and should get, more funding. We don't need to go into them here, but chief among them is that it allows many people to be transported from A to B quickly, and should or could allow them to do other things, including work, while they are being delivered to their destination.

Cycling, or travelling by car, doesn't really allow this, as you - personally - have to keep your vehicle on the road or path and make sure that you are not a danger to other users. With public transport, all of that is taken care of by the driver, so the people availing of this service can get on with other things.

Deedsie wrote: »

Imagine what cycling numbers could be achieved with proper investment and planning.

I imagine these numbers could be radically improved on a Saturday or a Sunday, as people go out 'for a cycle'. But you're not going to improve things for people in Hazelhatch, Maynooth or Broombridge if you're only offering them a 'cycle' into the city centre. I would probably stay at home and watch 'Game of Thrones' if I was there and cycling into town was the best offer.

Proper public tansport is the priority.

bk

I'm of the opinion that public transport, cycling and walking all go hand in hand and complement one another.

You see this very clearly in Amsterdam, I'm sure everyone is aware of their fantastic cycling infrastructure. But what people might not be aware of, is that they also have a fantastic public transport network of buses, trams and metro lines, all sharing a fully integrated ticket that charges you per distance, rather then how many buses, etc. you take.

Lots of people use cycling to cover the last mile of their commute. It is very normal for them to have two bikes, cycle from home to the train/metro/tram station, lock your bike their and get the train into the city, get your other bike from the station in the city and cycling the last mile to work. Very very common there and the reason they have MASSIVE cycle parking facilities next to the stations.

Take your example of someone living in Hazelhatch, they get the train into Hueston and then jump on a bike at the station to cycle into town along a high quality cycle way. Take some of the pressure off Luas, etc.

It is really smart and the two complement each other very well.

strassenwo!f

Yes, that's all wonderful, bk, as a general concept. And I'm sure we should have a thread about all that stuff.

The title of this thread indicated to me that this was a thread about the cross-city LUAS line, not a thread about the merits of cycling.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that public transport, cycling and walking all go hand in hand and complement one another.

You see this very clearly in Amsterdam, I'm sure everyone is aware of their fantastic cycling infrastructure. But what people might not be aware of, is that they also have a fantastic public transport network of buses, trams and metro lines, all sharing a fully integrated ticket that charges you per distance, rather then how many buses, etc. you take.

Lots of people use cycling to cover the last mile of their commute. It is very normal for them to have two bikes, cycle from home to the train/metro/tram station, lock your bike their and get the train into the city, get your other bike from the station in the city and cycling the last mile to work. Very very common there and the reason they have MASSIVE cycle parking facilities next to the stations.

Take your example of someone living in Hazelhatch, they get the train into Hueston and then jump on a bike at the station to cycle into town along a high quality cycle way. Take some of the pressure off Luas, etc.

It is really smart and the two complement each other very well.

Do you mean use a Dublin Bike or have two bikes and leave one at the station. I personally wouldn't leave my bike at a train station unless 24h supervised bike parking was in place.

In regards to someone living in Hazelhatch and commuting into the cc. I believe PPT services are now taking the pressure off the Luas.

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I'm not sure how cycling has managed to make its way into a thread about the LUAS cross-city line, but there are several reasons why rail (or bus) gets, and should get, more funding. We don't need to go into them here, but chief among them is that it allows many people to be transported from A to B quickly, and should or could allow them to do other things, including work, while they are being delivered to their destination.

Cycling, or travelling by car, doesn't really allow this, as you - personally - have to keep your vehicle on the road or path and make sure that you are not a danger to other users. With public transport, all of that is taken care of by the driver, so the people availing of this service can get on with other things.



I imagine these numbers could be radically improved on a Saturday or a Sunday, as people go out 'for a cycle'. But you're not going to improve things for people in Hazelhatch, Maynooth or Broombridge if you're only offering them a 'cycle' into the city centre. I would probably stay at home and watch 'Game of Thrones' if I was there and cycling into town was the best offer.

Proper public tansport is the priority.

Berlin, for example, now has a public cycling modal share of around 30% or less, while cycling has a 15% modal share. That's with a major rail network and fairly poor cycling network.

Amsterdam and Copenhagen have metro rail networks far beyond us and yet both have cycling modal shares higher than their public transport shares.

A mix and combination of rail and cycling are such good fit I'm still bemused by the attitude towards cycling from some rail advocates here. Blinkers.

CatInABox

monument wrote: »

Berlin, for example, now has a public cycling modal share of around 30% or less, while cycling has a 15% modal share. That's with a major rail network and fairly poor cycling network.

Amsterdam and Copenhagen have metro rail networks far beyond us and yet both have cycling modal shares higher than their public transport shares.

A mix and combination of rail and cycling are such good fit I'm still bemused by the attitude towards cycling from some rail advocates here. Blinkers.

Yup, it's all got to be a mix of transportation systems at the end of the day, and boosting cycling integration with the transport network would be on the relatively cheaper and easier end of the scale. Metro North still a far higher priority, but the money for bike storage facilities would be a pittance in comparison.

I wonder if there's any plans to cater for such facilities at any of the planned Metro North stops?

wakka12

Stephen15 wrote: »

Do you mean use a Dublin Bike or have two bikes and leave one at the station. I personally wouldn't leave my bike at a train station unless 24h supervised bike parking was in place.

In regards to someone living in Hazelhatch and commuting into the cc. I believe PPT services are now taking the pressure off the Luas.

You would probably come around to the idea of leaving your bike around a station if you livd in amsterdam. They have big cycling storage facilities that hold thousands and thousands of bikes. Theres probably so many bikes around the city that theres no reward for thieves by stealing them because theres probably so many people online giving away their bikes for free/low price on some dutch equivalent of craigslist or gumtree

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we return to BXD Cross City Luas please.

cgcsb

If only we had a DART serving Broombridge every 10 minutes and a redeveloped Broombridge industrial estate with high density apartments, shopping and community facilities.

yabadabado

Was there ever a plan to run both tracks on the one route through Hawkins /Marlborough st etc and have no line on OCS ?

GerardKeating

yabadabado wrote: »

Was there ever a plan to run both tracks on the one route through Hawkins /Marlborough st etc and have no line on OCS ?

Would Marlborough Street be wide enough for both tracks ?

Avada

GerardKeating wrote: »

Would Marlborough Street be wide enough for both tracks ?

I would suspect the turn onto Parnell Street would be a bit too tight, otherwise I think so.

BonnieSituation

yabadabado wrote: »

Was there ever a plan to run both tracks on the one route through Hawkins /Marlborough st etc and have no line on OCS ?

GerardKeating wrote: »

Would Marlborough Street be wide enough for both tracks ?

Avada wrote: »

I would suspect the turn onto Parnell Street would be a bit too tight, otherwise I think so.

I posted about this a few pages back with the link to the report.

It was one of the initial routes investigated. The EIS was against it for architectural and access reasons iirc. The turn at Parnell Square wouldn't have been too tight as the Welcome Inn would defo have been CPO'd.

It's by far the worst decision about LCC to run half the line down OCS. Brainless and ugly. Adn any talks about having the turnback as a result; Parnell Square could have been used.

monument

GerardKeating wrote: »

Would Marlborough Street be wide enough for both tracks ?

Yes, it is wide enough. There's no question about it.

lawred2

stevedublin wrote: »

uh... why? The Dart is so popular that platforms had to be extended a few years ago as trains were not long enough for all the passengers.

Lol I don't think that's evidence of success.

It's easy to be 'popular' when you're the only show in town..

lawred2

Muahahaha wrote: »

Well hopefully we get a solid announcement on the Metro in October. We were never going to get the go ahead for the Metro with a Taoiseach from Mayo, now that a Dublin Taoiseach is in place hopefully it will finally happen and funds are committed

Leo will probably announce a metro for castlebar

D.L.R.

@lawred2
Why do you think the Dart was a bad call?

LXFlyer

For those wondering about the route selection, click on the link below and go to page 51 and beyond:

http://web.archive.org/web/20120325194800/http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/Downloads/EIS/BXD_EIS_Book_1/Luas%20Broombridge_EIS_Book_1_Part_1_(Chapters_1-7).pdf

D.L.R.

Thanks but won't be reading all that waffle again, basicaly says they can't fit two tracks down the widest street on the island, <snip offensive bit>.

lawred2

D.L.R. wrote: »

@lawred2
Why do you think the Dart was a bad call?

An urban rain solution jammed onto inter city rail lines.. what's not to love!

We should have seen the start of an underground system (one which would be mature at this stage) rather than a hamfisted political fudge which was ultimately nothing more than a sop to CIE. It can't be physically expanded. Successive Irish governments have failed to deliver increased services because of Union intransigence.

But whatever it serves a much needed purpose, the fact remains though that the dart was a short sighted cludge.

LXFlyer

D.L.R. wrote: »

Thanks but won't be reading all that waffle again, basicaly says they can't fit two tracks down the widest street on the island, <snip>

Fine, but why bother even posting that?


I merely posted the link as several people have asked the question, and they may wish to read it.