Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

D.L.R.

lawred2 wrote: »

An urban rain solution jammed onto inter city rail lines.. what's not to love!

We should have seen the start of an underground system (one which would be mature at this stage) rather than a hamfisted political fudge which was ultimately nothing more than a sop to CIE. It can't be physically expanded. Successive Irish governments have failed to deliver increased services because of Union intransigence.

But whatever it serves a much needed purpose, the fact remains though that the dart was a short sighted cludge.

Plenty of urban lines mix long and short distance traffic. It'd be a waste of capacity to use the line for intercity only. Problem with Dart was its limited scope.

LeinsterDub

D.L.R. wrote: »

Plenty of urban lines mix long and short distance traffic. It'd be a waste of capacity to use the line for intercity only. Problem with Dart was its limited scope.

The DART has plenty of scope to expand if they would just invest.

Stephen15

lawred2 wrote: »

An urban rain solution jammed onto inter city rail lines.. what's not to love!

We should have seen the start of an underground system (one which would be mature at this stage) rather than a hamfisted political fudge which was ultimately nothing more than a sop to CIE. It can't be physically expanded. Successive Irish governments have failed to deliver increased services because of Union intransigence.

But whatever it serves a much needed purpose, the fact remains though that the dart was a short sighted cludge.

While I don't fully agree with you. I do share some of your frustrations about the Dart.

In many other cities they have a commuter rail network that shares with intercity, longer distance and freight trains, but the commuter rail network is operates on a semi express basis compared to light rail or a metro. There are some stations on the Dart line that embarrassingly close together for example Blackrock, Seapoint, Monkstown + Salthill and DL. In fact the stretch between Blackrock and Dalkey has a number of stations that are too close together.

The dosen't need to be two stations between Blackrock and DL one would surfice. They should pinpointed the exact halfway mark between Blackrock and DL and put station not two that extremely close together.

The Dart is also very slow trains inluding Rosslare services literally crawl between DL and Dalkey.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can you discuss the Dart and its expansion here

The thread is called 'Dart expansion' so it should not be hard to find.

fxotoole

cgcsb wrote: »

If only we had a DART serving Broombridge every 10 minutes and a redeveloped Broombridge industrial estate with high density apartments, shopping and community facilities.

The Sligo/Longford/Maynooth/Hansfield trains are fairly regular through Broombridge

strassenwo!f

Stephen15's comments about station separations on the DART do, though, bring to mind a couple of points in relation to stop separations on the LUAS cross-city project.

It's very possible that the planners have shown excellent foresight in this regard.

There are two places in the city centre where the separation between stops would seem to be currently too short: the first is the separation between the Upper O'Connell Street stop and the Parnell Street stop, and the second is the separation between the Westmoreland Street stop and the Lower O'Connell Street stop.

In relation to the first, I think it is unlikely that a facility as good as the Broadstone cutting is going to remain for very long with an 8-minute service. (the best totally off-street LUAS sections, like the Cherrywood line and much of the Red Line currently have a 4-minute service). Over the years it's probably going to be extended to Finglas from the top of the cutting, to somewhere else from Broombridge, or maybe across Grangegorman to somewhere else. Who knows? But, in my opinion, it is probable that at least a 4-minute service to Broadstone will come quite quickly.

If this happens, trams would no longer make the short circuit via O'Connell Street and Marlborough Street, and the Parnell Street stop would be served exclusively by southbound trams coming from the Dominick Street stop. (This should be a better inter-stop distance.) Thus, both Upper O'Connell Street and Parnell Street would have the level of service which is now planned for the initial phase, but the eventual service patterns would be different.

The very short gap between the Westmoreland Stop (which is almost at O'Connell Bridge) and the Lower O'Connell Street stop (which is very close to the bridge) is surely the shortest gap in the system. It can't be more than 150 metres. I'm not sure there's anything inherently wrong with this, as trams may have to wait at the bridge (and passenger numbers would readily build up while they are doing so, as it is probably the busiest point in the city).

But, at present, TCD has a buffer, in the form of a large railing and patches of grass to protect it in some way from all the ruaille-buaille going on currently out on College Green. However, the city is developing plans to pedestrianise College Green to a large extent, and it doesn't take a great stretch of anybody's imagination to see that (i) the buffer would be less needed if pedestrianisation takes place and (ii) removal of the buffer could enhance the whole pedestrianised area.

In the event that that happened, it might well be possible to straighten the (currently quite curvy) LUAS line as it passes through College Green, and thus produce more even distances between the Dawson Street, Trinity and Lower O'Connell Street stops.

It would be great if it turns out that this is what the planners were thinking about, long-term. It would produce very good inter-stop distances.

Muahahaha

Are you suggesting that in future the Luas will be re-routed through Trinity? That was considered at the design stage but couldnt be done due to the age of the buildings on the campus.

strassenwo!f

Muahahaha wrote: »

Are you suggesting that in future the Luas will be re-routed through Trinity?

No, I'm not. Perhaps you should re-read the original post.

Muahahaha wrote: »

That was considered at the design stage but couldnt be done due to the age of the buildings on the campus.

I am unaware that building the LUAS through TCD was an option considered. It was an option considered for the original metro plan, but I've never been aware that it was considered for the LUAS. Could you give us a link, Muahahaha, to back up what you've just written?

In any case, nobody is suggesting that the cross-city LUAS will ever go under or through TCD, certainly not now that it is already built. I was saying that eventual developments in Dublin, such as the pedestrianisation of College Green, when and if they happen, might facilitate improvements for the LUAS cross-city line in front of the TCD part of College Green.

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Stephen15's comments about station separations on the DART do, though, bring to mind a couple of points in relation to stop separations on the LUAS cross-city project.

It's very possible that the planners have shown excellent foresight in this regard.

There are two places in the city centre where the separation between stops would seem to be currently too short: the first is the separation between the Upper O'Connell Street stop and the Parnell Street stop, and the second is the separation between the Westmoreland Street stop and the Lower O'Connell Street stop.

First -- you're presuming that trams going along the loop will stop at both Upper O'Connell Street stop and the Parnell Street, when I don't think that has been confirmed anywhere.

For example, Upper O'Connell Street may only serve trams to Broombridge and Parnell Street might only serve trams heading southbound. It's unlikely that all trams doing the loop will stop at both Upper O'Connell Street and Parnell Street.

Second, well... I answer that below...

strassenwo!f wrote: »

In relation to the first, I think it is unlikely that a facility as good as the Broadstone cutting is going to remain for very long with an 8-minute service. (the best totally off-street LUAS sections, like the Cherrywood line and much of the Red Line currently have a 4-minute service). Over the years it's probably going to be extended to Finglas from the top of the cutting, to somewhere else from Broombridge, or maybe across Grangegorman to somewhere else. Who knows? But, in my opinion, it is probable that at least a 4-minute service to Broadstone will come quite quickly.

I agree with you on this -- even before the line will be extended, I think many people are underestimating the demand there will be north of O'Connell Street.

The population along the 2km or so of the route north of O'Connell Street will likely be the highest density population level of any section of Luas or Dart. The last 1.5km to Broombridge doesn't have as high of a density population, but, like other parts of Luas, it has the potential to attract people far further than usually expected from surface transport.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The very short gap between the Westmoreland Stop (which is almost at O'Connell Bridge) and the Lower O'Connell Street stop (which is very close to the bridge) is surely the shortest gap in the system. It can't be more than 150 metres. I'm not sure there's anything inherently wrong with this, as trams may have to wait at the bridge (and passenger numbers would readily build up while they are doing so, as it is probably the busiest point in the city).

It's about 220 metres.

It's the centre of the city.

There's nowhere between Dawson Street and the stop location at Westmoreland Street which would be more suitable for a stop. Dawson to Westmoreland is a distance of 440m, which is fairly long between core city centre locations.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

But, at present, TCD has a buffer, in the form of a large railing and patches of grass to protect it in some way from all the ruaille-buaille going on currently out on College Green. However, the city is developing plans to pedestrianise College Green to a large extent, and it doesn't take a great stretch of anybody's imagination to see that (i) the buffer would be less needed if pedestrianisation takes place and (ii) removal of the buffer could enhance the whole pedestrianised area.

In the event that that happened, it might well be possible to straighten the (currently quite curvy) LUAS line as it passes through College Green, and thus produce more even distances between the Dawson Street, Trinity and Lower O'Connell Street stops.

It would be great if it turns out that this is what the planners were thinking about, long-term. It would produce very good inter-stop distances.

Even if all the railing and grass were removed from the front of TCD, I don't know why anybody would go to the expense of chaining the curve on the tracks at College Green.

PS: strassenwo!f, why do you put names in bold?

Quackster

strassenwo!f wrote: »

No, I'm not. Perhaps you should re-read the original post.



I am unaware that building the LUAS through TCD was an option considered. It was an option considered for the original metro plan, but I've never been aware that it was considered for the LUAS. Could you give us a link, Muahahaha, to back up what you've just written?

In any case, nobody is suggesting that the cross-city LUAS will ever go under or through TCD, certainly not now that it is already built. I was saying that eventual developments in Dublin, such as the pedestrianisation of College Green, when and if they happen, might facilitate improvements for the LUAS cross-city line in front of the TCD part of College Green.

It was an option mooted for the original Luas line to Ballymun that it could go under TCD from Dawson St to Hawkins St but deemed impractical/unfeasible before Mary O'Rourke ultimately scrapped that line.

Given the turn the Luas has to make to get from College St to Grafton Street to Nassau St, it would be physically impossible to 'straighten' it out in front of TCD any further and in any case any infringement on the grounds of TCD simply would not fly.

D14Rugby

strassenwo!f wrote: »

But, at present, TCD has a buffer, in the form of a large railing and patches of grass to protect it in some way from all the ruaille-buaille going on currently out on College Green. However, the city is developing plans to pedestrianise College Green to a large extent, and it doesn't take a great stretch of anybody's imagination to see that (i) the buffer would be less needed if pedestrianisation takes place and (ii) removal of the buffer could enhance the whole pedestrianised area.

Without straying from the topic too much I believe trinity own that land so for what youd get buying it off them would be way too expensive to be worth it as youd not really gain anything other than some sort of stupid moral victory in a war some people seem to wage against trinity for some reason

MJohnston

I'd argue that you couldn't have the Luas running straight in front of the Trinity gates anyway, it's a very busy tourist attraction and people want them to step out of an archway directly into the path of a tram?

MJohnston

Also, removing that space would shorten the Luas line by what - maybe 10m at most? This is a bizarre small detail to be worrying about.

spacetweek

I don't think there are any design choices with BXD that I'd dispute.

I'm more worried about the convoluted route planned for Lucan Luas but that's another story.

A Luas being tested drove past me on Westmoreland yesterday evening - exciting!

Muahahaha

spacetweek wrote: »

A Luas being tested drove past me on Westmoreland yesterday evening - exciting!

Just saw one an hour ago going from Westmoreland over OC Bridge- all in one smooth movement

whiskeygirl

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just saw one an hour ago going from Westmoreland over OC Bridge- all in one smooth movement

Did it have the guards watching car traffic?

Muahahaha

whiskeygirl wrote: »

Did it have the guards watching car traffic?

Nope, not a Garda in sight. However 10 minutes later I was on Leeson Street and there were plenty of motorbike Traffic Corps escorting a diplomat down the canal towards Leinster House. So thats where the resources were allocated, there was around 20 Gardai on motorbikes, another 20-25 army lads on motorbikes, all to escort two cars.

yer man!

I see the tram testing has run into difficulty with people parking on the tracks... Hope this doesn't become an issue going forward.

Link

Middle Man

BonnieSituation wrote: »

How is that proof?

Imagine said diplomat gets murdered or attacked because we didn't have outriders.

Cop yourself on.

Also, there's a match on at Lansdowne tonight.

Slightly more important than a tram doing what it's going to be doing 24/7 come December.

---

Still some gobsh1ites getting caught midway across from from Burgh Quay to Aston Quay. How is this still possible?

Reckon you won't make it? Don't move!

Well with a new post just in (above), you might reconsider what you said!

MJohnston

yer man! wrote: »

I see the tram testing has run into difficulty with people parking on the tracks... Hope this doesn't become an issue going forward.

Link

They should start cutting that out now and treat the illegal parkers as if the Luas is already in operation, otherwise they'll keep doing it until its interfering with the live operation.

I'm telling you, the day drone deliveries replace vans will be a tremendous day for Dublin city centre.

yer man!

yer man! wrote: »

I see the tram testing has run into difficulty with people parking on the tracks... Hope this doesn't become an issue going forward.

Link

not a problem if you have one of these!

Jamie2k9

Passed Trinity stop today and it's about bloody time they have learned not to put the Leap readers in the middle of the platform.

Sierra Oscar

There was a Dublin Bus broken down on the tracks at the turn approaching Grafton Street this morning. Hopefully not a sign of things to come!

Sam Russell

Mod: Some posts deleted as off topic and pointless. Speculating on the planning of the line is not fruitful. The Luas line is now built and will not be modified in even the far future.

LXFlyer

yer man! wrote: »

I see the tram testing has run into difficulty with people parking on the tracks... Hope this doesn't become an issue going forward.

Link

Well given that it doesn't happen on either the existing Green Line or the Red Line, no I don't think it will be an issue once operations start.

LXFlyer

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There was a Dublin Bus broken down on the tracks at the turn approaching Grafton Street this morning. Hopefully not a sign of things to come!

I suspect there's a case for a recovery vehicle being permanently on standby in the city centre to deal with vehicle breakdowns along the line, given the much increased amount of shared road space.

salmocab

LXFlyer wrote: »

I suspect there's a case for a recovery vehicle being permanently on standby in the city centre to deal with vehicle breakdowns along the line, given the much increased amount of shared road space.

presumably there is one in ringsend bus station or will be

Sierra Oscar

LXFlyer wrote: »

I suspect there's a case for a recovery vehicle being permanently on standby in the city centre to deal with vehicle breakdowns along the line, given the much increased amount of shared road space.

They already have a recovery vehicle stationed in the city centre as far as I know. It used to be parked up on Molesworth Street before all the construction work started, not sure where it is based now.

In fairness the recovery vehicle was at the scene when I passed, naturally it takes a bit of time to actually physically remove the bus.

BonnieSituation

Middle Man wrote: »

Well with a new post just in (above), you might reconsider what you said!

Which part?

BonnieSituation

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

There was a Dublin Bus broken down on the tracks at the turn approaching Grafton Street this morning. Hopefully not a sign of things to come!

Dublin Buses have an awful habit of breaking down alright

LXFlyer wrote: »

I suspect there's a case for a recovery vehicle being permanently on standby in the city centre to deal with vehicle breakdowns along the line, given the much increased amount of shared road space.

salmocab wrote: »

presumably there is one in ringsend bus station or will be

I think having a recovery vehicle at Conyngham Road, Broadstone, Ringsend, Summerhill and Donnybrook might just about sort them.