Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

MJohnston

markpb wrote: »

I was only refuting the previous posters claims that the BG extension was low density.

I'd have no problem with an extension to finglas but given the housing and transport problems we have right now, I think any possible extensions should be to areas with green or brown field sites where large scale development is possible.

And this would be the purpose of the extension I'm talking about - forget Finglas itself, I'm thinking of Royal Canal Park/Ashtown/Rathborne and whatever else its called, in addition to outside-the-M50 developments like Hollywoodrath, and commuter towns such as Dunboyne and Ashbourne. Most of these aren't properly served by anything other than bus (or commuter rail). Extend from Broombridge through Finglas to a massive Park and Ride facility somewhere between the M2 and the M3 and you make those areas countless times more attractive for Dublin city centre or Docklands workers.

I'd also point out that there's a few medium density apartment blocks along the Ratoath Road, and a good few potential sites for redevelopment there too.

Slippin Jimmy

Can anyone tell me if the daily testing has begun?

Jamie2k9

Slippin Jimmy wrote: »

Can anyone tell me if the daily testing has begun?

Yes Monday to Friday 07.00-19.00. 4 trams around a 20 minute freq through the city. It will continue up until official opening.

strassenwo!f

MJohnston wrote: »

And this would be the purpose of the extension I'm talking about - forget Finglas itself, I'm thinking of Royal Canal Park/Ashtown/Rathborne and whatever else its called, in addition to outside-the-M50 developments like Hollywoodrath, and commuter towns such as Dunboyne and Ashbourne. Most of these aren't properly served by anything other than bus (or commuter rail). Extend from Broombridge through Finglas to a massive Park and Ride facility somewhere between the M2 and the M3 and you make those areas countless times more attractive for Dublin city centre or Docklands workers.

I'd also point out that there's a few medium density apartment blocks along the Ratoath Road, and a good few potential sites for redevelopment there too.

You are all over the place.

As if the emboldened parts in the above quote weren't contradictory enough, on the previous page of this thread you were suggesting an extension of this tram line (perhaps) to Finglas (in County Dublin, with a population of 31,000), via Ashbourne (in County Meath, with a population of 14,000).

???

What can anyone make of that logic?

When the LUAS cross-city is extended, as it inevitably will be, the obvious first step in its extension is to extend directly to Finglas. There really are no ifs or buts.

MJohnston

strassenwo!f wrote: »

You are all over the place.

As if the emboldened parts in the above quote weren't contradictory enough, on the previous page of this thread you were suggesting an extension of this tram line (perhaps) to Finglas (in County Dublin, with a population of 31,000), via Ashbourne (in County Meath, with a population of 14,000).

???

What can anyone make of that logic?

When the LUAS cross-city is extended, as it inevitably will be, the obvious first step in its extension is to extend directly to Finglas. There really are no ifs or buts.

You're overcomplicating things, not for the first time. When I said "forget Finglas itself" it was merely a mind exercise - as in: let's put aside Finglas for the minute in terms of its population. I still think it's a good place to run a Luas through. I'm pretty sure this was clear to most people following this thread tbh.

In addition, you seem to have presumed that I was talking about extending the line to Ashbourne, but I didn't say anything of the sort.

MJohnston

Here are some (100% fantasy island, crayons out) routes that I could foresee an extension to the Broombridge line taking:



Each of these would terminate in a big Park and Ride facility (the orange route would co-opt the Navan Road Parkway station's existing P+R and massively expand it)

BonnieSituation

MJohnston wrote: »

Here are some (100% fantasy island, crayons out) routes that I could foresee an extension to the Broombridge line taking:



Each of these would terminate in a big Park and Ride facility (the orange route would co-opt the Navan Road Parkway station's existing P+R and massively expand it)

You had to go and get the crayons out didn't ya.

That blue route is a horror show. But you're on the money with concept.

MJohnston

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You had to go and get the crayons out didn't ya.

That blue route is a horror show. But you're on the money with concept.

Yep, it'd be a clusterf*ck, but there's enough median space for it to actually be workable, and I include it because the areas around it are probably the most residentially dense in this part of the city.

Still, Green or Orange options would be way out in front for me, and I think Orange could be done with very little fuss, in fact I wish it had been in the original BXD plan.

PhoenixParker

Orange is pointless it's already a train line.
Far better to use any space to triple track the line and allow fast trains to pass.

Green I'd love, wrap it up to blanch IT and densify ballycoolin, but that's purely selfish not practical.

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

Yep, it'd be a clusterf*ck, but there's enough median space for it to actually be workable, and I include it because the areas around it are probably the most residentially dense in this part of the city.

Still, Green or Orange options would be way out in front for me, and I think Orange could be done with very little fuss, in fact I wish it had been in the original BXD plan.

The orange route just duplicates the rail line and the green line runs through a dump

MJohnston

I don't really care about the train line tbh, I'm more interested in that Luas line being able to get close to the M50 and terminate at a large Park and Ride facility. I think that's far more important than the areas it might pass through to get there.

marno21

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't really care about the train line tbh, I'm more interested in that Luas line being able to get close to the M50 and terminate at a large Park and Ride facility. I think that's far more important than the areas it might pass through to get there.

I think this is a poor idea, mainly because it'll be slow from the P&R to the city centre and won't be worth it due to speed for going south of the Liffey towards Dundrum/Sandyford/Cherrywood etc.

I'd much rather effort was put into getting these people out of their cars from the start of their journeys rather than forcing them to drive on congested M1/N3/N4/N7/N11 just to reach the M50 car park and have to get a tram then.

Of course we all know how to get people out of their cars at the start of the journey but those plans aren't going to come to fruition anytime soon either.

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't really care about the train line tbh, I'm more interested in that Luas line being able to get close to the M50 and terminate at a large Park and Ride facility. I think that's far more important than the areas it might pass through to get there.

The point of public transport is to transport the public. Passing through empty areas is beyond stupid.

MJohnston

marno21 wrote: »

I think this is a poor idea, mainly because it'll be slow from the P&R to the city centre and won't be worth it due to speed for going south of the Liffey towards Dundrum/Sandyford/Cherrywood etc.

Im not sure I agree - 22 minutes from Broombridge to SSG is the predicted timing, which means an extra 2-3km in greenfield areas wouldn't be far off 20 minutes from M50 to city centre. That's substantially better than any car trip achieved via N2 or N3, and as I mentioned there are residential development areas near here like Hollywoodrath that need transport support.

As for whether the speed to the south would be worth it, I'm not sure, I reckon if you were going from Ashbourne to Sandyford, it'd still be the fastest and least stressful way to do so.

MJohnston

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The point of public transport is to transport the public. Passing through empty areas is beyond stupid.

They're not empty areas!

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

They're not empty areas!

I don't know many people living in the dump.

LeinsterDub

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You had to go and get the crayons out didn't ya.

That blue route is a horror show. But you're on the money with concept.

What exactly is the problem with the blue route?

MJohnston

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I don't know many people living in the dump.

Which is only on one side of that entirely hypothetical route - both the existing Green Line and the Red line pass plenty of unusable areas of land.

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

Which is only on one side of that entirely hypothetical route - both the existing Green Line and the Red line pass plenty of unusable areas of land.

The other side is at the far end of Finglas. The lowest possible density and ends in the middle of nowhere. There isn't even a junction there.

MJohnston

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The other side is at the far end of Finglas. The lowest possible density and ends in the middle of nowhere. There isn't even a junction there.

And the Brides Glen extension largely went through green fields when it was built...

Consonata

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The other side is at the far end of Finglas. The lowest possible density and ends in the middle of nowhere. There isn't even a junction there.

Take a look at areas where the London Undergound was built through when it just arrived. Majority of those areas were farmland. The public transport availbility fast tracked development hugely in those areas. Exactly what Dublin needs with its current housing situation.

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

And the Brides Glen extension largely went through green fields when it was built...

I'm pretty sure we can't build on Dunsink for at least 40 years

LeinsterDub

Consonata wrote: »

Take a look at areas where the London Undergound was built through when it just arrived. Majority of those areas were farmland. The public transport availbility fast tracked development hugely in those areas. Exactly what Dublin needs with its current housing situation.

Yes but I'm pretty sure that we cant build on Dunsink for years to come.

MJohnston

You're essentially arguing with a point people aren't making. Nobody needs to build on Dunsink, that wasn't the suggestion. There's plenty of land around Cappagh Hospital that could be build on, and lots of land around the M50 and Cappagh Road.

mrsdewinter

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What exactly is the problem with the blue route?

As much as I'd love to see the Luas pass right by my door with the orange route, that simply replicates the current Maynooth line. But the blue line would be of tremendous benefit to thousands of people.

bk

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The point of public transport is to transport the public. Passing through empty areas is beyond stupid.

Unless the plan is to build high density homes right next to the stations in those empty areas, then it is a really good idea. See the southern end of the Luas green line.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I don't know many people living in the dump.

A dump sounds like an ideal candidate to be developed as a Park and Ride.

Remember lots of areas which were former dumps have been developed into very useful land, Fairview Park is built on what use to be a dump and East Point Business Park is also built on a dump and employs 6,000+ people in high end jobs.

Now I don't know the details of the land around here and what might be involved in converting it. But I'm just making the point that just because something is a dump or empty land, doesn't mean it can't be converted to new uses.

I suspect we will be seeing a trend of a lot of old industrial land, etc. being converted to residential and office space. The port areas is begging for it. This sort of development is very normal for cities who are gentrifying from industrial use to service based economies.

However having said all the above, it is clear that the next priority is Metro North/Dublin Metro and that a massive P&R should be built along with this.

However once that is done, extending Luas BXD and maybe even another P&R might make a lot of sense and it would be good for them to start thinking about it now and planning for it. Put an area plan in place, retain land, etc.

Banjoxed

bk wrote: »

Unless the plan is to build high density homes right next to the stations in those empty areas, then it is a really good idea. See the southern end of the Luas green line.



A dump sounds like an ideal candidate to be developed as a Park and Ride.

Remember lots of areas which were former dumps have been developed into very useful land, Fairview Park is built on what use to be a dump and East Point Business Park is also built on a dump and employs 6,000+ people in high end jobs.

Now I don't know the details of the land around here and what might be involved in converting it. But I'm just making the point that just because something is a dump or empty land, doesn't mean it can't be converted to new uses.

I suspect we will be seeing a trend of a lot of old industrial land, etc. being converted to residential and office space. The port areas is begging for it. This sort of development is very normal for cities who are gentrifying from industrial use to service based economies.

However having said all the above, it is clear that the next priority is Metro North/Dublin Metro and that a massive P&R should be built along with this.

However once that is done, extending Luas BXD and maybe even another P&R might make a lot of sense and it would be good for them to start thinking about it now and planning for it. Put an area plan in place, retain land, etc.

Its a much better plan than the classic seventies/eighties one of calling DART a white elephant and building 4/6 houses an acre in west Dublin and providing A/B/C variants on existing bus routes. A solution that only suited speculative builders nexusing with local politicians.

L1011

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm pretty sure we can't build on Dunsink for at least 40 years

Dunsink stopped accepting waste in 1996 and was considered remediated by 2010.

You can build on top of fairly recent landfills once gas handing is done right. Reading FCs stadium was built on a landfill that was about ten years on from closure when redev started

Carawaystick

The grand canal theatre is built on a toxic waste site that was remediated over 5 years or so.

Chivito550

Any reason why the corner at Harcourt St has a 10km/h speed limit, while every turn on the cross city route is 15km/h?