Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

I assume they're a fairly standard off-the-shelf design.



they still have to get through the people standing at the doors. The Dart has handles on every seat and overhead straps.

The DART also has the benefit of a wider loading gauge and much more space between the seats than at that point on the LUAS trams.

Chivito550

LXFlyer wrote: »

They are clearly wider than the LUAS is.

There is a balance to be struck.

Took those trams every day for 3 years. The aisles are no wider than on the LUAS.

Chivito550

LXFlyer wrote: »

The DART also has the benefit of a wider loading gauge and much more space between the seats than at that point on the LUAS trams.

If it being narrow was the problem then why have anyone standing on the aisle so? And as has been mentioned the people sitting in those seats still have to get passed the people standing further down the aisle.

Face it, it's a small glitch in the design.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

If it being narrow was the problem then why have anyone standing on the aisle so? And as has been mentioned the people sitting in those seats still have to get passed the people standing further down the aisle.

Face it, it's a small glitch in the design.

The people are only standing beside where it widens - people can get past.

The middle area is too tight.

I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill about this.

You could only fit two more people into that space even if you did put handrails in.

Chivito550

LXFlyer wrote: »

The people are only standing beside where it widens - people can get past.

The middle area is too tight.

I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill about this.

You could only fit two more people into that space even if you did put handrails in.

2-3 people multiplied by how many carriages? 4? 5?

Let's say 10 extra people could fit onto the tram being conservative. That's 10 people who have to wait for the next tram (which could also be full).

I haven't seen this elsewhere. Sure it's only a small detail, but why do we settle for "it's good enough" in Ireland.

Jamie2k9

You totally are making a big deal out of it!

The Green Line needs longer trams and it's getting them and you will be delighted to know the extra sections have almost no seats and lots of standing space.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

2-3 people multiplied by how many carriages? 4? 5?

Let's say 10 extra people could fit onto the tram being conservative. That's 10 people who have to wait for the next tram (which could also be full).

I haven't seen this elsewhere. Sure it's only a small detail, but why do we settle for "it's good enough" in Ireland.

Given that every second tram starts at Sandyford I'd find it very difficult to believe that they are all full.

And I do use the Green Line at peak times so I'm aware of the load factors - the frequency is such that having to wait for the next tram is not that big a deal.

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

That's hardly a positive comparison, the Tube is an absolutely miserable experience when it's busy.

I'd rather be miserable in the Luas rather than miserable ,cold and wet on the platform waiting for another Luas which also may be full.

Chivito550

LXFlyer wrote: »

Given that every second tram starts at Sandyford I'd find it very difficult to believe that they are all full.

And I do use the Green Line at peak times so I'm aware of the load factors - the frequency is such that having to wait for the next tram is not that big a deal.

Be that as it may, it is still a poor use of space. 10 extra people could safely fit onto a tram, yet this is not happening. No matter how much you try to downplay the significance of this, it still doesn't change the fact this is a design flaw.

MJohnston

The problem is - those spaces you're referring to are mostly going to remain empty on a busy tram even if they had handrails available, because people just don't move up to occupy the space. You see this on buses a lot.

Anyway, the real solution here isn't squeezing 5-10 more people out of the 360 capacity into the existing trams, it's increasing capacity by extending them and the platforms, and perhaps increasing frequency where possible.

Chivito550

MJohnston wrote: »

The problem is - those spaces you're referring to are mostly going to remain empty on a busy tram even if they had handrails available, because people just don't move up to occupy the space. You see this on buses a lot.

Anyway, the real solution here isn't squeezing 5-10 more people out of the 360 capacity into the existing trams, it's increasing capacity by extending them and the platforms, and perhaps increasing frequency where possible.

I see it everyday. People being asked to move down. They will only do so when somebody trying to squeeze onto the LUAS asks. But more often than not, they don't move down even when asked as there's nothing for them to hold onto if they do.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

Be that as it may, it is still a poor use of space. 10 extra people could safely fit onto a tram, yet this is not happening. No matter how much you try to downplay the significance of this, it still doesn't change the fact this is a design flaw.

On an off the shelf design.

Perhaps you should get in touch with Alstom and express your concerns directly to them?

CramCycle

MJohnston wrote: »

The problem is - those spaces you're referring to are mostly going to remain empty on a busy tram even if they had handrails available, because people just don't move up to occupy the space. You see this on buses a lot.

Anyway, the real solution here isn't squeezing 5-10 more people out of the 360 capacity into the existing trams, it's increasing capacity by extending them and the platforms, and perhaps increasing frequency where possible.

All the time, and gone are the days where bus drivers (well gone on some routes) would tell people to move up or back. Constantly having buses that have 10 people standing at the bottom of the stairs and making the bus appear full but you can see from outside there are a few empty seats upstairs, really grinds my gears.

LeinsterDub

CramCycle wrote: »

All the time, and gone are the days where bus drivers (well gone on some routes) would tell people to move up or back. Constantly having buses that have 10 people standing at the bottom of the stairs and making the bus appear full but you can see from outside there are a few empty seats upstairs, really grinds my gears.

They should move the TV with the cameras to the front of the bus opposite the leap machine. It's stupid you've to battle your way partially upstairs to see if upstairs is full

CramCycle

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They should move the TV with the cameras to the front of the bus opposite the leap machine. It's stupid you've to battle your way partially upstairs to see if upstairs is full

I used to get the 7 and the driver used to stop once full and refuse to move until people had gone upstairs to fill the space, back then all they had was a periscope. Now when downstairs full, they just motor on by. Anyway, way OT.

There are flaws with the LUAS design, it is almost as if they expected them never to be as popular. I haven't been on any of the new trams but I presume nothing changed with the design or have they rectified it a bit? It is not a major issue but it is a case of every little helps at rush hour.

bk

CramCycle wrote: »

I used to get the 7 and the driver used to stop once full and refuse to move until people had gone upstairs to fill the space, back then all they had was a periscope. Now when downstairs full, they just motor on by. Anyway, way OT.

It is all part of the really terrible, anti-costumer design and operational reality of Dublin Bus, along with single door buses, only using the front door when there are two and needing to interact with the driver for Leap.

We really need to move to standard European type bus operations. Three to four door buses, enter/exit through any door, no driver interaction ticketing. Basically what is proposed for BRT and what works so well through out Europe.

CramCycle wrote: »

There are flaws with the LUAS design, it is almost as if they expected them never to be as popular. I haven't been on any of the new trams but I presume nothing changed with the design or have they rectified it a bit? It is not a major issue but it is a case of every little helps at rush hour.

In fairness, I think they expected it to be very successful, which is why they designed it so they could easily add longer sections to existing trams and left space for longer platforms and even built the Green Luas line to be able to upgrade to Metro spec in future.

I suspect this is more due to an issue with the manufacturers standard spec.

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

They should move the TV with the cameras to the front of the bus opposite the leap machine. It's stupid you've to battle your way partially upstairs to see if upstairs is full

That is a standard location for the screen.

Putting it on the panel behind the driver would just lead to people catching things in it.

With centre doors being used far more frequently people are finally moving down the bus in my experience.

Jamie2k9

The Red Line trams have a rail where the seats are and people do stand there however it just creates bigger problems as it result is nobody having any room to move when trying to let people out either from seats or by the doors.

LeinsterDub

LXFlyer wrote: »

That is a standard location for the screen.

Putting it on the panel behind the driver would just lead to people catching things in it.

With centre doors being used far more frequently people are finally moving down the bus in my experience.

Just because it's standard doesn't make it right.

How would it lead to people catching things in it, just make it flush to the wall.

Chivito550

The lift at Dundrum LUAS seems to always be out of order. Why do they constantly have issues with this? It must suck for somebody in a wheelchair being constantly inconvenienced like that.

orangerhyme

does anyone think that part of the rationale of the Broombridge station is to rezone and develop Dublin Industrial Estate into housing, aparments and maybe a town center.

Its a huge site in a great location.

People talk about the Glass Bottle site but this is maybe 4 times the size, right on the luas, on the canal, loads of parks nearby, 10 minutes into town etc...

Granted youre sandwiched between Cabra and Finglas but development should be good for the area.

I dont know much about the businesses there, but would they not be better off being relocated to a commercial park on the M50?

I think its a good idea.
Close to two universities also.

"150-acre Dublin Industrial Estate struggles to attract tenants & currently hosts the Deeper Life Bible Church. Why not rezone residential"

Thats a tweet from Ronan Lyons from 3 years ago..

The Irish Glass bottle site is 24 acres and Fabrizia beside is 11 and they are talking about 3000 homes for 8000 people,
so how many could live in the DIE? 30,000?

CatInABox

orangerhyme wrote: »

does anyone think that part of the rationale of the Broombridge station is to rezone and develop Dublin Industrial Estate into housing, aparments and maybe a town center.

Its a huge site in a great location.

People talk about the Glass Bottle site but this is maybe 4 times the size, right on the luas, on the canal, loads of parks nearby, 10 minutes into town etc...

Granted youre sandwiched between Cabra and Finglas but development should be good for the area.

I dont know much about the businesses there, but would they not be better off being relocated to a commercial park on the M50?

I think its a good idea.
Close to two universities also.

"150-acre Dublin Industrial Estate struggles to attract tenants & currently hosts the Deeper Life Bible Church. Why not rezone residential"

Thats a tweet from Ronan Lyons from 3 years ago..

The Irish Glass bottle site is 24 acres and Fabrizia beside is 11 and they are talking about 3000 homes for 8000 people,
so how many could live in the DIE? 30,000?

Done right, it could be a game changer for both Cabra and Finglas. A mix of commercial, residential and high spec offices would bring about massive change in those areas.

It's probably something that the planners have pencilled in, but whether it'll happen in the next ten years or so is a coin toss in my opinion. The state of Irish economy will have more say than government willpower, and that's probably going to come down to the effect of Brexit.

orangerhyme

CatInABox wrote: »

Done right, it could be a game changer for both Cabra and Finglas. A mix of commercial, residential and high spec offices would bring about massive change in those areas.

It's probably something that the planners have pencilled in, but whether it'll happen in the next ten years or so is a coin toss in my opinion. The state of Irish economy will have more say than government willpower, and that's probably going to come down to the effect of Brexit.

I just found this article:

http://www.independent.ie/life/home-garden/homes/could-broombridge-development-be-answer-to-housing-shortage-issue-30330125.html

So, if it was being talked about 3 years ago, then surely we'd be seeing some development by now.

Its got a Tolka river park on one side, Royal canal on the other, glasnevin and the botanic gardens on the other side. Trees and rivers and greenery on all sides really.

If done right it could be a beautiful part of the city and revitalise the north side.

At the moment its mostly run down shabb 60s/70s type low density buildings.

Its probably complicated with all the seperate leases and property owners etc but it could be done.

monument

orangerhyme wrote: »

does anyone think that part of the rationale of the Broombridge station is to rezone and develop Dublin Industrial Estate into housing, aparments and maybe a town center.

Its a huge site in a great location.

People talk about the Glass Bottle site but this is maybe 4 times the size, right on the luas, on the canal, loads of parks nearby, 10 minutes into town etc...

Granted youre sandwiched between Cabra and Finglas but development should be good for the area.

I dont know much about the businesses there, but would they not be better off being relocated to a commercial park on the M50?

I think its a good idea.
Close to two universities also.

"150-acre Dublin Industrial Estate struggles to attract tenants & currently hosts the Deeper Life Bible Church. Why not rezone residential"

Thats a tweet from Ronan Lyons from 3 years ago..

The Irish Glass bottle site is 24 acres and Fabrizia beside is 11 and they are talking about 3000 homes for 8000 people,
so how many could live in the DIE? 30,000?

Some councillors looked to have it redeveloped or look for a SDZ but the council management rejected the idea.

Reuben1210

monument wrote: »

Some councillors looked to have it redeveloped or look for a SDZ but the council management rejected the idea.

I really hate saying it, but that is just classic Ireland! No forward or integrated thinking!

Dardania

Reuben1210 wrote: »

monument wrote: »

Some councillors looked to have it redeveloped or look for a SDZ but the council management rejected the idea.

I really hate saying it, but that is just classic Ireland! No forward or integrated thinking!

Before condemning the council, what were their reasons for this?

cgcsb

A Broombridge SDZ would be fantastic. With an electrified Maynooth line it'll be very well connected. And its bounded to the North by a park so no excuse not to go high rise

orangerhyme

Dardania wrote: »

Before condemning the council, what were their reasons for this?

Its a shame really, Id imagine money talks and it will have its way eventually as the house prices in Cabra are rising.

It wouldnt be a huge job really as all the infrastructure is there already.
Just requires good management and phasing it out over a few years.

I wonder is it something Eoghan Murphy is looking at.

As someone else said it would be great for Finglas and Cabra. At least 20,000 people could live and work there.

I cant imagine more than few hundred people working there now, its very low desnity.

It could be a mixture of Eastpoint and the docklands, commercial park, offices, apartments, shops and a town center.

orangerhyme

Eastpoint is 40 acres and has 6000 workers.
IGS and Fabrizia is 35 acres for 8000 people living there.

This industrial park is somewhere around 100 - 150 acres, so could handle at least 10,000 workers and 10,000 living there easily.

It has good roads, rail, Luas and cycle path along the canal also that goes to the Docklands.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/committees/32housingandhomelessness/A-Right-to-a-Home-for-all---Ronan-Lyons-Oireachtas-submission-2016-05.pdf

Heres another document from Ronan Lyons.

"The implications of the lack of a land tax can be seen, for example, in the Dublin
Industrial Estate, near Glasnevin and within the Dublin City Council limits. This is a
170-acre site that could provide thousands of new homes, close to O’Connell Street,
the new DIT campus, the M50 and to lots of green space. In addition, the new Crosscity
Luas extension will terminate at the Dublin Industrial Estate. There can be very
few who will argue that the best value use of the site would be to keep it industrial."

Ive measured it at 125 - 130 acres, so Im not sure how he has calculated 170 acres.

It would be a good oppurtunity to develop a linear park along the canal like they have further east by Drumcondra.

As someone else said, since youve a big enough park on one side and a rail and canal on the other, you could build quite high in places.

Zebra3

orangerhyme wrote: »

does anyone think that part of the rationale of the Broombridge station is to rezone and develop Dublin Industrial Estate into housing, aparments and maybe a town center.

The rationale would’ve been the disused railway alignment, and connections with Maynooth line and Red Luas line.