Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Brian CivilEng

If the lines are joined the "network effect" will come into play. Just like the utility of the telephone was that other people had them, it was little use if you were the first person you knew who had one. The utility of both lines will be increased because of the large number of new destinations that are now available to them with just one change. I'm sure people with more information than us have modelled the likely increase in users, you can imagine that there will be some journeys that wouldn't make sense e.g. Tallaght to Brides Glen would be just too long, Harcourt to James Hospital would be slower than walking, but then again Dundrum to Heuston would be made much handier.

It's also the beginnings of a network, if we survive the imminent collapse of modern civilisation and find a few cent down the back of the couch a few more lines could tie in with what's there, and before you know it a huge proportion of the city would be within one change of each other by rail transport. If you take the Picadilly line, then transfer to the Victoria line...

trellheim

That is like saying people on the 39 bus route will want to use the 15 if the two terminuses were put beside each other, more than they would at the moment.

"Wahey a bus to Rathmines ! Let's get that because I'm from Blanch and it's what we do, y'know."

The SSG mention was to divert funding to somethingf that is actually needed, which is prioritizing the mode that actually funnels most of the people in, i.e. the bus. it can get out of town, but the delays down Leeson St onto SSG east , Nassau St etc can be silly. Adding a 3rd Mode ( Car, Bus + Tram ) 2 lines down Nassau St and College Green is dribbling idiocy.

And yes there were trams in the old days; the 3,7,15, etc legacy routes all were trams, but the buses replaced them.


If the money situation improves in 5-10 year envelope to permit DU or MN we'll be digging O'Connell St up twice, SSG twice . And for what ? Crayon line drawing.

Do it subsurface or don't do it at all.

Wild Bill

trellheim wrote: »

Yours - happily part of the "problem" as you put it.

So Donnybrook-Irish to be happy to be part of a problem!

I'm a solutions man myself. :cool:

Wild Bill

trellheim wrote: »

The SSG mention was to divert funding to somethingf that is actually needed, which is prioritizing the mode that actually funnels most of the people in, i.e. the bus. it can get out of town, but the delays down Leeson St onto SSG east , Nassau St etc can be silly. Adding a 3rd Mode ( Car, Bus + Tram ) 2 lines down Nassau St and College Green is dribbling idiocy.

Dribbling idiocy, eh?

Actually, as a car driver myself I tend to agree with the late Mrs Thatcher when she said "anyone still taking the bus after age 30 is a failure"

But I'd be tempted out of the car for the relative comfort and predictability of a Luas.

But a CIE bus? Only a dribbling idiot.........:cool:

Victor

Wild Bill wrote: »

Actually, as a car driver myself I tend to agree with the late Mrs Thatcher when she said "anyone still taking the bus after age 30 is a failure"

It seems she was horrified only a few years later when all the motorways that were built to help deliver goods and services were being hogged by people in cars.

Wild Bill

Victor wrote: »

It seems she was horrified only a few years later when all the motorways that were built to help deliver goods and services were being hogged by people in cars.

Hey! She was a bit of a "dribbling idiot" herself.

But even a DI can have the odd flash of insight!

loyatemu

if it does connect with the Maynooth line, that will generate a lot of extra passengers too, though again they'll initially mostly be existing PT users. The more connected and simple to use the network is though, the more attractive PT as a whole becomes.

coolperson05

loyatemu wrote: »

if it does connect with the Maynooth line, that will generate a lot of extra passengers too, though again they'll initially mostly be existing PT users. The more connected and simple to use the network is though, the more attractive PT as a whole becomes.

That's a major part of this project, Maynooth commuters can get off and transfer to Luas easing the human congestion at Connolly/Pearse, etc. People can get off and get to SSG/Trinity/OCS etc. much quicker and easier.
It's not all about getting from SSG to Abbey Street.

markpb

BrianD wrote: »

The problem is that there is no evidence to suggest that people of one line want to use the other.

Without agreeing or disagreeing with you, what sort of evidence would you expect NTA/RPA to put forward? Would it take the form of asking people who already use the Luas, asking people who don't use the luas, random survey or something else?

Also, when you say there's no evidence, do you mean you haven't seen any evidence or you don't believe that people would want to transfer from one line to the other? Because if that's what you're saying, I have to ask why you think people would want to go from Smithfield to the Point but not Heuston to Charlemont?

robd

Victor wrote: »

About an extra 10m per year, although some of that will come from bus users.

If it does attract 10m that would bring total up to 37.5m (it's currently 27.5m)
http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Corporate%20RPA/Annual%20Report%202010/RPA_Annual_Report_2010_English.pdf

Considering Irish Rail carried only 38million over the whole country last year, that's some achievement.

Build the Lucan Luas and it would be the 2nd biggest transport operator in the country behind Dublin Bus at approx 120m and falling (due to Luas).

BrianD

markpb wrote: »

Without agreeing or disagreeing with you, what sort of evidence would you expect NTA/RPA to put forward? Would it take the form of asking people who already use the Luas, asking people who don't use the luas, random survey or something else?

Also, when you say there's no evidence, do you mean you haven't seen any evidence or you don't believe that people would want to transfer from one line to the other? Because if that's what you're saying, I have to ask why you think people would want to go from Smithfield to the Point but not Heuston to Charlemont?

I think the evidence is imperical and well said by another poster. Because I use the 39 does not mean that I will use the 15 bus from the same stop (of it actually does). There will of course be people who will.

Public focus has been on the linking of the two lines and that by doing this we will see some magical unlocking of pent up demand. I don't think we will see that.

There will naturally be an increase in ridership but I believe that it is because the extended green line offers more utility as in goes further into the city (and beyond).

BrianD

robd wrote: »

If it does attract 10m that would bring total up to 37.5m (it's currently 27.5m)
http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Corporate%20RPA/Annual%20Report%202010/RPA_Annual_Report_2010_English.pdf

Considering Irish Rail carried only 38million over the whole country last year, that's some achievement.

Build the Lucan Luas and it would be the 2nd biggest transport operator in the country behind Dublin Bus at approx 120m and falling (due to Luas).

It's not an anchievement. It's to be expected - equivalent to shooting fish in a barrel.

markpb

BrianD wrote: »

I think the evidence is imperical and well said by another poster. Because I use the 39 does not mean that I will use the 15 bus from the same stop (of it actually does). There will of course be people who will.

I was trying to avoid arguing about whether the demand was there or not, I'm just wondering what sort of evidence you would like to see before proceeding?

dowlingm

At present, trams can only be shifted between depots by road. Line A/C and Line B have one depot each. If BX is completed, each depot will be able to transfer cars to the other without a road transfer. If D is completed then there will be three connected depots which will increase the options in the event of a failure of any one of them like a broken switch or a power failure.

robd

BrianD wrote: »

It's not an anchievement. It's to be expected - equivalent to shooting fish in a barrel.

I'm thinking of it in terms of overhauling Irish Rail as a transport provider in terms of numbers. This would be very welcome.

AngryLips

BrianD wrote: »

I think the evidence is imperical and well said by another poster. Because I use the 39 does not mean that I will use the 15 bus from the same stop (of it actually does). There will of course be people who will.

Public focus has been on the linking of the two lines and that by doing this we will see some magical unlocking of pent up demand. I don't think we will see that

You're dead right. And by that logic people won't use MN to connect to the airport nor will anyone use DU to connect to MN, Luas or east coast suburban services :rolleyes:

...Nor does anyone actually use the "free transfer" facility on Travel90 tickets.

Jehuty42

robd wrote: »

I'm thinking of it in terms of overhauling Irish Rail as a transport provider in terms of numbers. This would be very welcome.

It would, but your own figures kind of demonstrate(to me) that it's a waste of time catering to anywhere outside of Dublin county, given that the huge differences in numbers of carried passenger in "the Pale". Really any further capital investment should go into Dublin, the motorway network is sufficient for the bogs until times pick up. IE should be overhauled, but to remove most of the intercity component. Get more heavy rail in Dublin(there hasn't been any new rail built in Dublin for a century, the lines that need quad tracking don't get it), subsurface and overground. Focus on commuter services around Cork, Limerick and Galway, since there has been demand shown for these.

Wild Bill

Jehuty42 wrote: »

It would, but your own figures kind of demonstrate(to me) that it's a waste of time catering to anywhere outside of Dublin county, given that the huge differences in numbers of carried passenger in "the Pale". Really any further capital investment should go into Dublin, the motorway network is sufficient for the bogs until times pick up. IE should be overhauled, but to remove most of the intercity component. Get more heavy rail in Dublin(there hasn't been any new rail built in Dublin for a century, the lines that need quad tracking don't get it), subsurface and overground. Focus on commuter services around Cork, Limerick and Galway, since there has been demand shown for these.

You'll never sell that City-centric concept to the folk who'd like more empty trains running up and down alongside the new M18

Jehuty42

Wild Bill wrote: »

You'll never sell that City-centric concept to the folk who'd like more empty trains running up and down alongside the new M18

True, but I shouldn't have to. Politics shouldn't be so parochial. Dublin as a region should have more autonomy, the ability to raise its own taxes and finance its own projects, instead of its tax money going to build the WRC and the €25 per passenger subsidy on that line.

Victor

robd wrote: »

Considering Irish Rail carried only 38million over the whole country last year, that's some achievement.

You can hardly compare a Luas trip with Cork-Dublin.

markpb

Victor wrote: »

You can hardly compare a Luas trip with Cork-Dublin.

Presumably Irish Rails figures include Dart so you'd expect IC + Suburban + Dart to be significantly higher than 2 tram lines.

Wild Bill

markpb wrote: »

Presumably Irish Rails figures include Dart so you'd expect IC + Suburban + Dart to be significantly higher than 2 tram lines.

Surely all these figures are recorded separately? Are they not released?

markpb

Wild Bill wrote: »

Surely all these figures are recorded separately? Are they not released?

The CIE website says

Iarnród Éireann returned an operating deficit of €36 million in 2010. Passenger journeys fell by 0.6 million from 38.8 million in 2009 to 38.2 million in 2010, a 1.5% reduction in passenger volume over the year.

Bus Átha Cliath returned a deficit of €22.1 million for the year. Total passenger journeys amounted to 119 million in 2010 compared to 128.3 million in 2009, a reduction of 9.3 million (7.2%).

I can't find anything for DART except this fluffy quote in the Dart Underground page

Passenger numbers on DART and Commuter services have already grown from 25 million to 33 million under Transport 21

and

The 2002 total was 24.3 million passenger journeys, up from 2001’s previous high of 23.4 million. This includes 20.7 million DART passenger journeys, also a record.

BrianD

AngryLips wrote: »

You're dead right. And by that logic people won't use MN to connect to the airport nor will anyone use DU to connect to MN, Luas or east coast suburban services :rolleyes:

...Nor does anyone actually use the "free transfer" facility on Travel90 tickets.

Eh. did you read and understand what I wrote. Look at the big picture thanks.

AngryLips

BrianD wrote: »

Eh. did you read and understand what I wrote. Look at the big picture thanks.

You suggested that the incrase in passengers will be down to the Green line passengers traveling further into the city centre, implying that connectivity opportunities between the two lines don't factor in that increase.

And you based this on your personal experience of using the 39 bus without ever connecting to the 15 ...no offence, but that's not exactly a broad-based analysis to derive empirical data.

BrianD

AngryLips wrote: »

You suggested that the incrase in passengers will be down to the Green line passengers traveling further into the city centre, implying that connectivity opportunities between the two lines don't factor in that increase.

And you based this on your personal experience of using the 39 bus without ever connecting to the 15 ...no offence, but that's not exactly a broad-based analysis to derive empirical data.

OK, confirmed that you didn't read or understand.

What I said is that I do not believe that the lines crossing each other will not necessarily explain an increase of usage. Usage of one line does not qualify usage of the other. That's a logical conclusion. Same as the example of two bus stops being beside each other.

An increase of usage on the Green Line will more likely be explained that by extending it into O'Connell St. (lets assume it terminates at Parnell Sq) will considerably increase it's utility by better penetration into the city centre as a destination and as a transit exchange.

Some of those of course will hop onto the Red Line. It would be interesting if the RPA provided data on current usage of both lines in a journey so this can be benchmarked.

trellheim

BrianD is spot on. A lot of people are arguing from what I can think is a belief that no network currently exists, it does, it's just bus-based and BXD jams a huge spoke in it.

Stop and think this out from a full system point of view not just a rail/tram point of view. Note I am one of the biggest supporters of rail and tram where it's merited. Not one person has come on and actually looked

If MN or DU is built they will grow traffic as people seem to want, but not at the effect of driving the other modes into the ground. BXD is just the cheapest "seen to be doing something, so it must be right" ... if that was the case fix SSG properly and it'll do a hell of a lot more for public transport.

monument

BrianD wrote: »

OK, confirmed that you didn't read or understand.

What I said is that I do not believe that the lines crossing each other will not necessarily explain an increase of usage. Usage of one line does not qualify usage of the other. That's a logical conclusion. Same as the example of two bus stops being beside each other.

An increase of usage on the Green Line will more likely be explained that by extending it into O'Connell St. (lets assume it terminates at Parnell Sq) will considerably increase it's utility by better penetration into the city centre as a destination and as a transit exchange.

Some of those of course will hop onto the Red Line. It would be interesting if the RPA provided data on current usage of both lines in a journey so this can be benchmarked.

I agree that the lines crossing will not be the only thing to account for any increases (it will also serve the shopping / entertainment / business areas of the northside of the city centre and a number of the highest density residential areas in the country.

But linking the lines will also increase usage by transfers from one to the other.

trellheim wrote: »

BrianD is spot on. A lot of people are arguing from what I can think is a belief that no network currently exists, it does, it's just bus-based and BXD jams a huge spoke in it.

Stop and think this out from a full system point of view not just a rail/tram point of view. Note I am one of the biggest supporters of rail and tram where it's merited. Not one person has come on and actually looked

If MN or DU is built they will grow traffic as people seem to want, but not at the effect of driving the other modes into the ground. BXD is just the cheapest "seen to be doing something, so it must be right" ... if that was the case fix SSG properly and it'll do a hell of a lot more for public transport.

The route effect and network effect work best when there's a clear line.

Jamming a huge spoke in the central spine of the city could be one of the worst thing or one of the best. Disrupting something does not always lead to a negative.

BXD has its own merits.

I'm sure you can find its page on the RPA's site and its business case is here: http://www.nationaltransport.ie/downloads/line_bxd_business_case.pdf

BrianD

monument wrote: »

Jamming a huge spoke in the central spine of the city could be one of the worst thing or one of the best. Disrupting something does not always lead to a negative.

I would be inclined to agree. I am not entirely convinced about the scale of disruption to DB. Certainly during construction it will be at its severest.

I would have thought that streets like lower Grafton St are at capacity for DB. The arrival of trams means that there may be some more imaginative routing of DB routes. They stops are only there because of historical circumstances and because they suit DB.

It's also worth considering that the tram line could be shared with bus traffic if needed (obviously stops would have to be in pull in bays).

strassenwo!f

monument wrote: »

Jamming a huge spoke in the central spine of the city could be one of the worst thing or one of the best. Disrupting something does not always lead to a negative.

I'm puzzled by the terminology here.

The interconnector was going to be the "backbone" for the city's transport system.

Yet St. Stephen's Green to Parnell Square, according to the argument here, is the city's "spine".