Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Wild Bill

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I'm puzzled by the terminology here.

The interconnector was going to be the "backbone" for the city's transport system.

Yet St. Stephen's Green to Parnell Square, according to the argument here, is the city's "spine".

Curved spine - can be caused by certain illegal substances.

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I'm puzzled by the terminology here.

The interconnector was going to be the "backbone" for the city's transport system.

Yet St. Stephen's Green to Parnell Square, according to the argument here, is the city's "spine".

St Stephen's Green to Parnell Square is effectively a central "spine" of the bus network and city shopping and entertainment areas.

A huge amount of buses use this small space -- and even more so with the streets between College Green and Parnell Square. The map shown on this page with only some of the main bus routes highlights this - http://dt106ers.com/blog/2011/12/update-dublin-transport-map-v1-5/

There's other "spines". Like the tourism one: Parnell Square - Dublin Castle - Guinness - Kilmainham -- the Park. Or the office one: North Docklands - South Docklands - St Stephen's Green. Or the legal one: Parkgate Street - Four Courts.

Dart Underground is the would be the backbone of the rail network, better linking the current lines, increasing the capacity elsewhere and creating creating a new high-capacity line, and linking the above mentioned "spines".

BrianD

Plus it's fair to say that this spine is too narrow in the first place and if we widened it out by a rib cage of routes it would be potentially better for the city centre overall. Re routing all those route through other streets may be the best thing that ever happens.

AngryLips

If the Stephen's Green / College Green / O'Connell Street cross-city route gets dedicated partially or entirely to Luas it would be a good opportunity to make better use of the other central cross-city route of George's Street / Parliament Street / Capel Street. This alternative is more desirable than the Westland Row / Pearse Street routing because it better serves city-centre bound commuter journeys destined for the Henry Street / Temple Bar / Grafton Street commercial areas.

George's Street is already a de-facto public transport-only corridor during rush hours because of the bus gates on College Green. All that's required is to direct more bus routes up George's Street (I'm surprised by how many busses coming in from Portobello turn left towards Earlsfort Terrace at Camden Street instead of going straight towards Georges Street). The other striking thing about both Georges Street and Capel Street is the fact that on-street parking is still available at both places. If on-street parking were removed and the one-way system on Parliament Street / Capel Street scrapped in favour of bus lanes then both streets would have more space to better serve public transport journeys.

The question of what to do with city centre bound services from the Leeson Street direction can possibly be addressed by routing some or all of them pass the south of Stephen's Green towards George's Street via Aungier Street, or even via the currently pedestrianised South King Street past the Gaiety.

LXFlyer

Georges Street/Camden Street is also one of the slowest corridors due to the narrow street and consequent lack of priority.

Buses from D'Olier Street via St Stephen's Green will generally get to Kelly's Corner faster than buses operating via Georges Street.

Cathaoirleach

From the capital review

LUAS BXD, with a revised funding requirement of between €270 million and €330 million to
2016, would be affordable to construct to 2016 or to commence in the period. The cost
range here is dependent on the level of provision for certain Metro North works which
should be carried out in conjunction with BXD works in order to minimise the construction
impacts on BXD services when Metro North is ultimately constructed. The base cost for BXD
to 2016 at €270 million is also dependent on proceeding to construction in 2012, thereby
taking advantage of current value available in the construction sector.

With Metro North and Dart Underground, Luas BXD makes up the three projects deemed
essential to a fully integrated Public Transport system for Dublin - it is a key element of the
NTA GDA strategy for the next 20 years. It will link the Luas Red and Green lines and will
bring the benefits of light rail to communities on the northwest of Dublin. An outline
business case has been provided for BXD and this demonstrates a strong economic case for
the project. Once the Railway Order is confirmed by ABP (likely in the autumn) a final
business case will be prepared.

Within the remaining discretionary funding for public transport, it would also be possible to
provide around €100 million to progress Bus Rapid Transit on some QBC corridors in the
period. BRT has the potential to address congestion and capacity issues on some public
transport corridors. The NTA in conjunction with the RPA are conducting a feasibility study
on a pilot corridor (Stillorgan QBC) to identify all the issues and test the system concept. A
BRT solution may help to address the public transport deficit in North Dublin in the 2012 - 2016 period and upgrades of the Blanchardstown and /or Swords QBC could be prioritised in
that regard.

http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/13393-CAPITAL_REVIEW_20122016-11.pdf

AngryLips

Interesting that the base cost is calculated on construction commencing in 2012 when the Government have already indicated that construction will commence in 2015...

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Georges Street/Camden Street is also one of the slowest corridors due to the narrow street and consequent lack of priority.

Buses from D'Olier Street via St Stephen's Green will generally get to Kelly's Corner faster than buses operating via Georges Street.

It's not really that narrow of a street.

It's the usual of what I hear that "the Irish want it all". We want our streets to be everything and because of this all users generally end up getting a very quality of service.

You could easily fit in two-way, fully segregated BRT, plus in places wider footpaths and/or cycle lanes, plus access space for loading etc.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

It's not really that narrow of a street.

It's the usual of what I hear that "the Irish want it all". We want our streets to be everything and because of this all users generally end up getting a very quality of service.

You could easily fit in two-way, fully segregated BRT, plus in places wider footpaths and/or cycle lanes, plus access space for loading etc.

On Wexford Street????

Camden Street is fine, but there is no space on Wexford Street for that whatsoever, and Aungier Street/Redmond's Hill is certainly wide enough for a bus lane in one direction but two might be a squeeze!

I can say from substantial experience that at peak times the SSG routing is the faster route.

robd

lxflyer wrote: »

On Wexford Street????

Camden Street is fine, but there is no space on Wexford Street for that whatsoever, and Aungier Street/Redmond's Hill is certainly wide enough for a bus lane in one direction but two might be a squeeze!

I can say from substantial experience that at peak times the SSG routing is the faster route.

A BRT is a road specifically for buses and local access. Normal traffic would be removed from the street.

AngryLips

Wexford Street would be one lane better off if it wasn't occupied by on-street parking.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

On Wexford Street????

Camden Street is fine, but there is no space on Wexford Street for that whatsoever, and Aungier Street/Redmond's Hill is certainly wide enough for a bus lane in one direction but two might be a squeeze!

I can say from substantial experience that at peak times the SSG routing is the faster route.

robd wrote: »

A BRT is a road specifically for buses and local access. Normal traffic would be removed from the street.

@lxflyer Not a bus lane, but BRT or a bus only street.

Whether by an invisible "bus gate" or actual barrier, or a bit of both depending on time of day. And bus lane enforcement cameras could be used if needed (as they are needed but not used on College Green).

And it does not have to be strictly bus only. There's loads of options: It could be strictly only buses both ways for the whole street, or it could be shared for a few hundred meters at the tightest part of the street for allowing access to the rest of the street while keeping it a very restrictive and unattractive route for general through traffic. It would also be open as to what to do with the extra space -- the footpaths needing widening on the west side of the street, you could also provide wider cycle lanes to keep cyclists away from buses and at limited points provide loading bays to keep the traffic which does need access out of the path of the buses and cyclists.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

On Wexford Street????

Camden Street is fine, but there is no space on Wexford Street for that whatsoever, and Aungier Street/Redmond's Hill is certainly wide enough for a bus lane in one direction but two might be a squeeze!

I can say from substantial experience that at peak times the SSG routing is the faster route.

robd wrote: »

A BRT is a road specifically for buses and local access. Normal traffic would be removed from the street.

@lxflyer Not a bus lane, but BRT or a bus only street.

Whether by an invisible "bus gate" or actual barrier, or a bit of both depending on time of day. And bus lane enforcement cameras could be used if needed (as they are needed but not used on College Green).

And it does not have to be strictly bus only. There's loads of options: It could be strictly only buses both ways for the whole street, or it could be shared for a few hundred meters at the tightest part of the street for allowing access to the rest of the street while keeping it a very restrictive and unattractive route for general through traffic. It would also be open as to what to do with the extra space -- the footpaths needing widening on the west side of the street, you could also provide wider cycle lanes to keep cyclists away from buses and at limited points provide loading bays to keep the traffic which does need access out of the path of the buses and cyclists.

With the best will in the world that is not going to happen. That would mean two parallel routes being public transport only which frankly is a non-runner.

Much and all as I am a passionate advocate of public transport I cannot see it being a runner.

Even restricting it would prove difficult.

AngryLips

lxflyer wrote: »

With the best will in the world that is not going to happen. That would mean two parallel routes being public transport only which frankly is a non-runner.

Much and all as I am a passionate advocate of public transport I cannot see it being a runner.

Even restricting it would prove difficult.

You're right. Dublin doesn't have good enough public transport for the city to be doing what other cities across Europe have done by restricting private cars from the centre ...even if such a step would actually result in better and more reliable public transport for the city.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

With the best will in the world that is not going to happen. That would mean two parallel routes being public transport only which frankly is a non-runner.

Much and all as I am a passionate advocate of public transport I cannot see it being a runner.

Even restricting it would prove difficult.

Why? Are you really that passionate about public transport?

Access to the main car parks could be maintained inbound via Harcourt Street / St Stephens Green and outbound via Earlsfort Terrace, as well as other routes such as Bride Street etc.

Or do we discount everything that is difficult? So, is it good bye to QBCs, good bye college green bus gate, good bye integrated ticketing, good bye real time, and good bye Dublin Bikes?

AngryLips wrote: »

You're right. Dublin doesn't have good enough public transport for the city to be doing what other cities across Europe have done by restricting private cars from the centre ...even if such a step would actually result in better and more reliable public transport for the city.

Indeed. That's why there's now havoc daily because of the bus gate, all the QBCs, and the 30km/h limit.

rOBeRt frETt

In regards to some kind of direct route from the greater Dublin area into city centre I think this is absolutely pertinent. I get the red line from citywest to ifsc everyday and it takes an aggravating hour door to door- giving the Luas an average speed of 12 miles an hour- incredulous! I cycle in the spring and summer and it takes 40 minutes for me.

What's wrong with the Red line? Obviously you don't use the red line service it accounts for over 75% of crime on our tram lines, the trams have a smaller capacity than the green line trams and a greater demand leading to a cramped service full if unsavoury scumbags.

Lets not mention it does not have right of way in traffic
Apart from being 'on time' it has nothing else going for it

dowlingm

rOBeRt frETt wrote: »

the trams have a smaller capacity than the green line trams

Aren't they all 40m now on both red and green?

Cathaoirleach

dowlingm wrote: »

Aren't they all 40m now on both red and green?

That's what I thought.

Robert does have a point though. The Red Line in is slow and always jammed with knackers.

robd

dowlingm wrote: »

Aren't they all 40m now on both red and green?

Green line has latest 5000 class trams which are 43m.

Red line has older 4000 class trams which are 40m. Originally red line had 30m 3000 class trams which were upgraded to 40m due to overcrowding.

L1011

The Green line still had some 4000 class units last time I checked, have they all been replaced?

Victor

MYOB wrote: »

The Green line still had some 4000 class units last time I checked, have they all been replaced?

I get the impression the vast majority of Green Line services are with the 5000 class. While I don't use the line much, I pass it several times a week and I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a 4000 class.

Aard

I've only ever used the Red line on the city centre section, which I found slow. Is it the same on the rest of the line? I'd imagine past St James's it runs pretty swiftly...

BrianD

Aard wrote: »

I've only ever used the Red line on the city centre section, which I found slow. Is it the same on the rest of the line? I'd imagine past St James's it runs pretty swiftly...

Isn't that the nature of on-street trams in urban areas? Every city I've been I would class trams as useful but a slow way of getting about.

Jehuty42

BrianD wrote: »

Isn't that the nature of on-street trams in urban areas? Every city I've been I would class trams as useful but a slow way of getting about.

Unfortunately we don't have a fast transport backbone(like a Tube), so instead of the tram being a supplement, it's burdened as a sole transport link.

Aard

BrianD wrote: »

Isn't that the nature of on-street trams in urban areas? Every city I've been I would class trams as useful but a slow way of getting about.

That wasn't really the angle I was taking. I was asking whether the Tallaght-James's section was fast. I've never ridden the Red line that far out, so I don't know.

Victor

James's-Blackhorse would be quicker than James's-Busáras and Blackhorse-Tallaght/Citywest would be faster again.

monument

Average speeds on one random tram between Red Cow and Museum today (the last two mins or so was on foot).



For anybody not familiar with this type of recording: This records average speeds over each minute (so max speed are higher).

The overall recordings are:

Average overall: 20.7km/h (was over 30km/h before James's)
Distance: 8.83
Max 69.6km/h

Total decent (m) : 72
Total ascent (m) : 9

Wild Bill

monument wrote: »

Average speeds on one random tram between Red Cow and Museum today (the last two mins or so was on foot).

Be interesting to compare those speeds with a DART...seems like a good argument for more heavy rail/DU solutions than trams

LXFlyer

To put the answer to your question Aard in perspective, the 69 bus is faster from Red Cow to the city centre than the LUAS, as are any of the buses from Heuston Station to the city centre.

An Cuinneach

I sympathise with the person from Citywest - the Red Line can indeed be aggravatingly slow. I do think it's speed should be increased, though I also believe some of the stops should be removed. For starters:

Tallaght Hospital - this stop just isn't justified. And it's not even at the Hospital entrance. I can see the entrance from the Tallaght stop and it would take me an extra 60 seconds to get from there to the hospital than the actual Hospital stop. Furthermore, the entrance into the housing estate is between Hospital and Cookstown so if you were a resident, you could just as easily walk to Cookstown. A lot of the time coming home, no on even exits at Hospital.

Fatima - either this or Rialto. The stops on this section are far too frequent and slow down the speed. These two in particular are ridiculously close together to justify two stops.

Four Courts - Again, it's so close to Smithfield that it's laughable. The tram should just run from Smithfield straight to Jervis. I'm by no means a snob, but because of the courthouse, there are a fair few 'unsavoury' people around. I don't know how many times I've seen Gardaí shuffling people in handcuffs around here. Why have a stop here? There's no commercial, tourist or busy residential function of the space.

Anyway, that's just my two cents. There's a few too many stops in my opinion. My other one to cut would be Connolly, seeing as how you could throw a shoe from Busáras to it, but there's not a chance of it being cut.