Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

The impact of the longer trams will be far more significant as they will require to move from Westmoreland Stop to O’Connell-GPO in a single move as they won’t fit onto O’Connell Bridge without overhanging traffic lanes

Surely there's already potential for that to occur now, given that both straight ahead lanes on O'Connell Bridge are open to all traffic?

marno21

AngryLips wrote: »

Well what are you saying? Because there is no IR service that comes close to the service quality of Luas

That's more of an issue with IR than heavy rail.

Metro North corridor is going to need massive capacity going forward. It needs to be done incredibly well

wakka12

Luas was delayed even by 9.50am when I take it to work..Said it was coming in 6 minutes ..arrived at exactly 10 am

bk

marno21 wrote: »

That's more of an issue with IR than heavy rail.

Metro North corridor is going to need massive capacity going forward. It needs to be done incredibly well

You are right, it does need to be well done. But for a city the size of Dublin, it really doesn't have to be heavy rail.

Barcelona style Metro works extremely well and is very suited to Dublin.

Of course if we end up with crippled 60 meter station boxes, that would be a travesty. But for instance 86m long Barcelona Metro trains seem to work extremely well and their Metro network carries 426 million people a year!

The problem with saying that we should build it as full on heavy rail, is that it would cost about a billion more then a decent Metro, which would make the project even less likely to get off the ground. And less likely that we would get future lines.

What I'm hoping for is a well speced Barcelona style Metro with 90m station boxes. And that it will just be the first of many future metro lines, just like they have in Barcelona. If it is expensive heavy rail, which IMO would be overkill, with little benefit and stuck in the quagmire of Irish Rail, then we will never achieve this.

Pixel Eater

On the Abbey Street stop there is these crappy temporary signs printed on plastic boards attached the the railing using cable ties directing people to the Marlbrough and GPO stops. Surly they should have proper permanent signage erected before the opening of the new line?!

The Luas, while a pretty good system, has fairly substandard branding in my opinion (although I did like the graphics promoting the Cross City extension).

yabadabado

bk wrote: »

You are right, it does need to be well done. But for a city the size of Dublin, it really doesn't have to be heavy rail.

Barcelona style Metro works extremely well and is very suited to Dublin.

Of course if we end up with crippled 60 meter station boxes, that would be a travesty. But for instance 86m long Barcelona Metro trains seem to work extremely well and their Metro network carries 426 million people a year!

The problem with saying that we should build it as full on heavy rail, is that it would cost about a billion more then a decent Metro, which would make the project even less likely to get off the ground. And less likely that we would get future lines.

What I'm hoping for is a well speced Barcelona style Metro with 90m station boxes. And that it will just be the first of many future metro lines, just like they have in Barcelona. If it is expensive heavy rail, which IMO would be overkill, with little benefit and stuck in the quagmire of Irish Rail, then we will never achieve this.

Used the Barcelona system a few times and it seems to work well.
TII should just have gone with the original MN plans instead of trying to save money with those stupid cuts.To me the original plan was ideal .
MN really should be ready to start once Luas CC was completed.

Anita Blow

Traffic was crazy around O'Connell bridge at 11. It took 15 mins for my bus to get from JW Sweetmans across the bridge to Eden Quay and in that time a Luas was parked on the bridge for at least 4 mins. Buses backed up all down the quays. It's not sustainable

plodder

Pixel Eater wrote: »

On the Abbey Street stop there is these crappy temporary signs printed on plastic boards attached the the railing using cable ties directing people to the Marlbrough and GPO stops. Surly they should have proper permanent signage erected before the opening of the new line?!

The Luas, while a pretty good system, has fairly substandard branding in my opinion (although I did like the graphics promoting the Cross City extension).

That's very noticeable from the photos back a page or two. There should be decent sized, branded signs, particularly on the streets leading to off-street stops. Otherwise how are passengers supposed to find them

On heavy rail vs light rail. What matters most is segregation, whether underground or overground. Really only DU needs to be heavy rail, imo, given it will be the core of the whole network.

MrMorooka

LXFlyer wrote: »

However, I still have grave reservations about how the new longer trams will work in the city centre.

As an example. from what I can tell, if a tram is waiting at the lights at Fleet St, it currently has its ass overhanging a little into the lane coming around the corner at the Westin(but traffic can go around it). With longer trams, it might actually block that junction entirely.

Jamie2k9

MrMorooka wrote: »

As an example. from what I can tell, if a tram is waiting at the lights at Fleet St, it currently has its ass overhanging a little into the lane coming around the corner at the Westin(but traffic can go around it). With longer trams, it might actually block that junction entirely.

The set up at the junction is a joke, two tram signals and they only clear one so the tram sits blocking fleet street waiting for the second. It is not difficult to give them a clear run there.

MrMorooka

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The set up at the junction is a joke, two tram signals and they only clear one so the tram sits blocking fleet street waiting for the second. It is not difficult to give them a clear run there.

Yeah, you can see it in this video. It's a bit strange alright, can anyone explain the rationale for having it set up this way?

Jamie2k9

MrMorooka wrote: »

Yeah, you can see it in this video. It's a bit strange alright, can anyone explain the rationale for having it set up this way?

Possibly poor design, guess the reason why they allow the tram to block the junction is so either current or future size won't block the one behind.

It should be possible to reprogramme the lights and have both cleared.

Dardania

Maybe there's not so much traffic going down fleet street - I seem to remember years ago buses parked on it - is that still the case? Maybe they want those buses to queue on the turning right lane to allow Luas through as a matter of priority (and not block the preceding junction of people turning right off Pearse Street)?

Beta Ray Bill

So I've "Used / Not Used" the Luas Green line Extension a few times.

Couple of issues I've noticed straight away:

1: There's no Luas from say Harcourt Street to Connolly Station or the point, you have to get off and switch luas (That could change I suppose)
2: Signalling arrangements seem odd in places as posted by MrMorooka
3: College Green in a mess at rush hour. Effectively a Luas is almost the length of 3 double decker buses.
4: Using it to get one part of the inner city to another is slow, I'm faster walking from Connolly to Harcourt St that I am getting the Luas. I've to go from Harcourt St to Eastwall after work today, I'll be walking.
5: Traffic in Dublin at rush hour is worse now than it was before the port tunnel was built, I usually use the bike to get into town, but even now it's taking over 20 mins to get from Raheny Area to Town. In some cases +30 mins... Crazy for a motorcycle. I've only been using public transport because of the v.bad weather. But if things keep going the way they are (Dublin city councils war on vehicle owners) My next Job will be in somewhere like Swords I hope.

All in though I'm glad it's been built, but there are some serious teething problems to be addressed.

JazzyJ

grahambo wrote: »

So I've "Used / Not Used" the Luas Green line Extension a few times.

Couple of issues I've noticed straight away:

1: There's no Luas from say Harcourt Street to Connolly Station or the point, you have to get off and switch luas (That could change I suppose)

That's not really an issue once the trains are operating on a frequent basis. Most transport systems involve interchanges. Look at the London underground.

donvito99

grahambo wrote: »

But if things keep going the way they are (Dublin city councils war on vehicle owners)

The city would move a lot better if we stepped up the 'war' on private vehicles during the rush hours.

Beta Ray Bill

JazzyJ wrote: »

That's not really an issue once the trains are operating on a frequent basis. Most transport systems involve interchanges. Look at the London underground.

Very true

But they have put in track to facilitate that kind out route.
The Red line has points so that in can join the Green line and Abbey St Lower (At the Abbey Theatre). I saw them this morning, I didn't realise they were there.

Maybe they are just working through it slowly, bittng off one piece at a time.

Beta Ray Bill

donvito99 wrote: »

The city would move a lot better if we stepped up the 'war' on private vehicles during the rush hours.

Congestion charge is next me thinks! :mad:

NuMarvel

grahambo wrote: »

Very true

But they have put in track to facilitate that kind out route.
The Red line has points so that in can join the Green line and Abbey St Lower (At the Abbey Theatre). I saw them this morning, I didn't realise they were there.

Maybe they are just working through it slowly, bittng off one piece at a time.

The NTA spoke about this earlier this year. In short, journeys where trams switch lines aren't on the cards/

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/04/18/theres-reason-new-luas-trams-wont-switch-lines/

Beta Ray Bill

NuMarvel wrote: »

The NTA spoke about this earlier this year. In short, journeys where trams switch lines aren't on the cards/

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/04/18/theres-reason-new-luas-trams-wont-switch-lines/

Why did they put the points in then aside from engineering works? (how did they accommodate that before hand?)
Maybe as a future option I suppose. I read in the article the it says linking them would cause delays, I think that's BS. I've been Tokyo where one platform serves many trains (Not trams mind you) going to many different destinations and it all runs perfectly.

I'm sure the metro will be the same gauge track and it will link up with the Green/Red lines somewhere too.

cgcsb

markpb wrote: »

Like the way the red line transformed the city between Jervis and Smithfield? :P

it done wonders for Smithfield anyway, DCC owns much of the markets area, which I would say is the key problem, DCCs dead hand and all, they operate a MASSIVE surface carpark there beside the market building, which was supposed to be developed as a retail space, but of course Councils are like spector of death when it comes to positive economic development.

Haven't the council recently acquired the Iveagh Markets form a private developer who was struggling to secure capital. You can kiss the Iveagh markets project goodbye too so. Millions will be spend on reports, nothing will be done and the markets will collapse with old age and the land will be sold to developers to build low-rise housing.

donvito99

grahambo wrote: »

NuMarvel wrote: »

The NTA spoke about this earlier this year. In short, journeys where trams switch lines aren't on the cards/

https://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/04/18/theres-reason-new-luas-trams-wont-switch-lines/

Why did they put the points in then aside from engineering works? (how did they accommodate that before hand?)
Maybe as a future option I suppose. I read in the article the it says linking them would cause delays, I think that's BS. I've been Tokyo where one platform serves many trains (Not trams mind you) going to many different destinations and it all runs perfectly.

I'm sure the metro will be the same gauge track and it will link up with the Green/Red lines somewhere too.

Inter line stock transfers.

donvito99

Moving trams between two otherwise separate lines.

LeinsterDub

grahambo wrote: »

Why did they put the points in then aside from engineering works? (how did they accommodate that before hand?)
Maybe as a future option I suppose. I read in the article the it says linking them would cause delays, I think that's BS. I've been Tokyo where one platform serves many trains (Not trams mind you) going to many different destinations and it all runs perfectly.

I'm sure the metro will be the same gauge track and it will link up with the Green/Red lines somewhere too.

There will never been a commuter service running on those points. There are operational only and require the Luas to reverse around them (IIRC) . They are only there if a tram needs to be put in service on an other line or a specialised tool is only at 1 depot.

Pixel Eater

All this seems to be because there is still too much priority given to other traffic. One thing that really annoys me about the Luas is when it stops at 'minor' streets at traffic lights. For example when it stops before Benburb Street and dwells again a few hundred yards away before Queen Street. Surly it should have absolute priority at these junctions, even if the roads are busy at morning peak hours. Even on some of the larger, busier roads it should have priority (maybe not absolute but a lot). With efficient and coordinated traffic lights it should be able to get the trams through quickly and let the rest of the traffic flow afterwards.

With the new Cross City section this is even more important. Dwelling on some of the section now will not just merely slow the journey time but will actively block other traffic.

lucernarian

But why should a luas have more priority at benburb street than potential multiple busy Dublin Buses?

LuckyLloyd

lucernarian wrote: »

But why should a luas have more priority at benburb street than potential multiple busy Dublin Buses?

It clearly shouldn't.

vrusinov

Because it carries more passengers?

Pixel Eater

lucernarian wrote: »

But why should a luas have more priority at benburb street than potential multiple busy Dublin Buses?

Because it has far greater capacity and it's a major (and expensive) piece of transport infrastructure and should be run as fast and efficient as possible. With coordinated traffic lights it should clear the road very quickly and cause minimum delay to the road traffic.

Besides it's one thing to dwell during more peak times but simply absurd to stop during the day to let maybe one or two cars past.

NuMarvel

grahambo wrote: »

Why did they put the points in then aside from engineering works? (how did they accommodate that before hand?)
Maybe as a future option

Based on that article, engineering links to allow for vehicle maintenance seems to be the only reason. Doesn't seem like they had another one.

And I don't think there's a full set of links to facilitate switching lines anyway. To use your example of Harcourt to Connolly, where are the points that allow a southbound tram to easily move eastwards? They're not on O'Connell street and I don't think they're on Marlborough Street either.

The only options I can see for completing that journey both require the tram to stop on a line while the driver moves from one end of the tram to the other.