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Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

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    #3962
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,404 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    bk wrote: »
    You are right, it does need to be well done. But for a city the size of Dublin, it really doesn't have to be heavy rail.

    Barcelona style Metro works extremely well and is very suited to Dublin.

    Of course if we end up with crippled 60 meter station boxes, that would be a travesty. But for instance 86m long Barcelona Metro trains seem to work extremely well and their Metro network carries 426 million people a year!

    The problem with saying that we should build it as full on heavy rail, is that it would cost about a billion more then a decent Metro, which would make the project even less likely to get off the ground. And less likely that we would get future lines.

    What I'm hoping for is a well speced Barcelona style Metro with 90m station boxes. And that it will just be the first of many future metro lines, just like they have in Barcelona. If it is expensive heavy rail, which IMO would be overkill, with little benefit and stuck in the quagmire of Irish Rail, then we will never achieve this.

    Barcelona has like 14 lines though right? we'll get one, all going well and 2 or 3 spur lines in the future that will choke the central area.


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    #3963
    yabadabado
    Registered Users Posts: 16,527 ✭✭✭✭yabadabado


    grahambo wrote: »
    Congestion charge is next me thinks! :mad:

    Wouldnt like to see a congestion charge introduced.The fairest way is a ban on private vechicles/taxi's in certain areas at peak times.


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    #3964
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,404 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    Traffic was crazy around O'Connell bridge at 11. It took 15 mins for my bus to get from JW Sweetmans across the bridge to Eden Quay and in that time a Luas was parked on the bridge for at least 4 mins. Buses backed up all down the quays. It's not sustainable
    Cars need to be pulled out of the mix, especially on Bachelors walk, it's as simple as that. DCC doesn't seem capable of doing what's needed, so the NTA should do it, take DCCs transport remit.


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    #3965
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    lucernarian wrote: »
    But why should a luas have more priority at benburb street than potential multiple busy Dublin Buses?

    Come back to me when DB sort out their dwell time and number of stops


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    #3966
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,404 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    grahambo wrote: »

    1: There's no Luas from say Harcourt Street to Connolly Station or the point, you have to get off and switch luas (That could change I suppose)

    Not an issue at all, they are two lines, you interchange between them. if you have a 3 minute frequency it's not a problem at all.

    The problem is, at present, we don't have a three minute frequency because:
    a) Bizzarly there aren't enough trams
    b) DCC wants to keep lots of cars blocking the route, despite having had 4 years to prepare for this.


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    #3967
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,645 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    lucernarian wrote: »
    But why should a luas have more priority at benburb street than potential multiple busy Dublin Buses?

    Tram Priority

    Well, if you think about it, the Luas has tp pass through the junction at some time. If the Luas has absolute priority, it can rely on the lights changing as it arrives and does not need to even slow. Now lets say the tram passes the junction in 30 seconds at full speed, but needs 45 seconds if it stops at the lights.

    Now trams are passing say every 3 minutes (in each direction) so with tram priority, 30 seconds are taken every 3 minutes which at worse (when trams pass in both directions at different times) is 33% of the time, but if the trams are arriving randomly is more likely to be 25%. If the trams have to stop, then the trams take worse take 50% of the time but 33% is more likely.

    Now if the speed of the tram was optimised, the two could arrive together improving the available time for other traffic. As the time gap between trams increase, this effect is reduced.

    The point I am making is that trams have to cross junctions, and they do it one tram at a time (for a given direction). Buses on the other hand can travel in convoy, (and frequently do), and many can cross a junction in one sequence. Just look at OCS and see maybe twenty buses, but only one tram.

    Shortage of Trams

    Now, there are 66 trams in the system and about 50 km of track. Spread 66 trams over 100 km of track, as there are two tracks, you would have a tram every 1.6 km. Now if the trams average 30 km/hr, they would be a tram every Three and a half minutes over the whole network. Therefore they are not short of trams.

    Now I assume every tram is on the track at the busy times, but that may not be practical, but you should get the idea.


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    #3968
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,404 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Pixel Eater wrote: »
    All this seems to be because there is still too much priority given to other traffic. One thing that really annoys me about the Luas is when it stops at 'minor' streets at traffic lights. For example when it stops before Benburb Street and dwells again a few hundred yards away before Queen Street. Surly it should have absolute priority at these junctions, even if the roads are busy at morning peak hours. Even on some of the larger, busier roads it should have priority (maybe not absolute but a lot). With efficient and coordinated traffic lights it should be able to get the trams through quickly and let the rest of the traffic flow afterwards.

    With the new Cross City section this is even more important. Dwelling on some of the section now will not just merely slow the journey time but will actively block other traffic.

    The only time a luas ought to be stopped for lights should be at OC'S, Queen street doesn't even carry public transport at all, so why there is a need to stop there, who knows.


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    #3969
    Dardania
    Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Dardania


    lucernarian wrote: »
    But why should a luas have more priority at benburb street than potential multiple busy Dublin Buses?

    Carries far more weight passengers?


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    #3970
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Dardania wrote: »
    Carries far more weight passengers?

    Luas passengers are fatties? ;)


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    #3971
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    Sorry if this is something thats been suggested before but how hard would it be to say that luas lines can only be used by the luas and DB during luas operation hours. Then have it set up so that when theres a 3 minute frequency every 3 minutes the luas line gets a green light. I could be completely missing something and am open to corretion if i am but surely it wouldn't be that hard to set that up.


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    #3972
    Dardania
    Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Dardania


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Dardania wrote: »
    Carries far more weight passengers?

    Luas passengers are fatties? ;)

    Quite possibly;) autocorrect doing me in again


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    #3973
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    Sorry if this is something thats been suggested before but how hard would it be to say that luas lines can only be used by the luas and DB during luas operation hours. Then have it set up so that when theres a 3 minute frequency every 3 minutes the luas line gets a green light. I could be completely missing something and am open to corretion if i am but surely it wouldn't be that hard to set that up.

    Even simpler to have a sensor trip before it reaches the junction, so the LUAS slows (as is good practice) but should never need to stop anywhere but at stations. Red light cameras at every junction, with heavy fines for anyone on the yellow box. Soon sort it all out.

    Obviously just remove private motor transport from large parts of the route as well.


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    #3974
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,388 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    Sorry if this is something thats been suggested before but how hard would it be to say that luas lines can only be used by the luas and DB during luas operation hours.
    Other bus companies in competition against DB would have an issue, law would probably support them.
    D14Rugby wrote: »
    Then have it set up so that when theres a 3 minute frequency every 3 minutes the luas line gets a green light. I could be completely missing something and am open to corretion if i am but surely it wouldn't be that hard to set that up.

    Not a lot of use because trams won't be evenly spaced out, i.e, even at 3 minute average frequency the next 6 trams might come at minute 2,4,8,12,16,18 instead of 3,6,9,12,15,18. So a green every 3 minutes would lead to 4 of these trams being delayed, because either early or late.
    Priority greens are much better but cause other problems as discussed.


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    #3975
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    will all the green line trams be upgraded to 55m?


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    #3976
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,771 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    Other bus companies in competition against DB would have an issue, law would probably support them.

    You could narrow it down to LUAS and Bus only, solves that issue, no way should DB (nor I doubt they could) get a monopoly and i imagine not what the poster meant. Getting rid of private motors and taxis should provide enough space and accessibility for buses in any of the areas and remove almost all major delays.


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    #3977
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Luas stuck for almost 4 minutes at bottom of harcourt street going northbound. What is going on!!!! Have never seen that happen before.


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    #3978
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,638 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    will all the green line trams be upgraded to 55m?

    The 7 new ones due early 2018 plus another 8 new ones to follow at an unspecified later point will be 55m.

    The current trams on the green line will all be lengthened to the same.


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    #3979
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Luas stuck for almost 4 minutes at bottom of harcourt street going northbound. What is going on!!!! Have never seen that happen before.

    the whole thing with the signals is so Irish and its just a farce! OCS is one thing, its a complex junction with a huge amount of modes of traffic and movements!

    But why in gods name are they not given priority at all other junctions?!

    other modes can also benefit from that sequence!


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    #3980
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    the whole thing with the signals is so Irish and its just a farce! OCS is one thing, its a complex junction with a huge amount of modes of traffic and movements!

    But why in gods name are they not given priority at all other junctions?!

    This Junction was never an issue before. Has something changed?

    Timed the length of time taken from SSG to OCS-GPO. 8:30 plus the 30 secs the tram was stopped at SSG. So 9 mins. I’ve walked it in 12-13 though am a quick walker. It’s 5:20pm I did it at. Slow speed all in all. Can’t believe it had to sit behind a private car turning right on Dawson st. The mind boggles.


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    #3981
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    it actually sounds like the fixes are easy enough! its just moronic planning, light sequencing and drivers that is the issue... how do they prevent bunching? do the tram drivers know exactly where the other trams are on the line or do they do it over radio from the depots?


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    #3982
    yabadabado
    Registered Users Posts: 16,527 ✭✭✭✭yabadabado


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    it actually sounds like the fixes are easy enough! its just moronic planning and drivers that is the issue...

    If only they had the balls to make the changes.A few complaints from the lobbyists seems to see DCC running scared.

    Ban all private vehicle's/taxi's from a few areas during peak times solves a host of problems.


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    #3983
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,668 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    You know, I'm kind of wondering if all this chaos actually suits the NTA/Dept of Transport!

    They can now point to all the delays and chaos and say told you so to the politicians and go back and implement the following:

    - Full car ban from the Quays
    - Ban of taxi's from the tracks
    - Closure of College Green

    Basically what they wanted from the start.


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    #3984
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,852 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    you are right BK, there are so many agendas at play! Id love to be a fly on the wall!


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    #3985
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Having heard nothing, I presume that the Luas Cross City operated smoothly enough for both this morning's rush and that of yesterday. If so, it's so typical of the media to zero in on Monday's failure, but then report nothing when it is operating OK the next day. Can anyone confirm my assumption that the LCC is operating OK now - I believe that Monday's failure was down to a signalling issue.


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    #3986
    BowSideChamp
    Registered Users Posts: 272 ✭✭BowSideChamp


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Having heard nothing, I presume that the Luas Cross City operated smoothly enough for both this morning's rush and that of yesterday. If so, it's so typical of the media to zero in on Monday's failure, but then report nothing when it is operating OK the next day. Can anyone confirm my assumption that the LCC is operating OK now - I believe that Monday's failure was down to a signalling issue.

    No it is a mess.


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    #3987
    Middle Man
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    BowSideChamp wrote: »
    No it is a mess.
    OK, well the first question: Is the bus gate operational in College Green? - IMO, private cars have no business there.

    Second Question: Are the buses and trams being sequenced properly between St. Stephen's Green and the Liffey?

    Anyone with thoughts on this?


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    #3988
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    bk wrote: »
    You know, I'm kind of wondering if all this chaos actually suits the NTA/Dept of Transport!

    They can now point to all the delays and chaos and say told you so to the politicians and go back and implement the following:

    - Full car ban from the Quays
    - Ban of taxi's from the tracks
    - Closure of College Green

    Basically what they wanted from the start.

    Absolutely plausible. I'd say the renegotiations are ongoing.
    Some people need to learn the hard way that there is only so many blocks you can take out of the jenga before it collapses. I only wish the public didn't have to suffer for it to happen.


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    #3989
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,946 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    And DCC traffic cams are unavailable at the moment. The last pics are from May 2017 on the website!

    Hmmm.

    https://www.dublincity.ie/dublintraffic/


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    #3990
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,307 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Having heard nothing, I presume that the Luas Cross City operated smoothly enough for both this morning's rush and that of yesterday. If so, it's so typical of the media to zero in on Monday's failure, but then report nothing when it is operating OK the next day. Can anyone confirm my assumption that the LCC is operating OK now - I believe that Monday's failure was down to a signalling issue.

    It hasn’t been as catastrophic as Monday, but there are severe issues.


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    #3991
    Bits_n_Bobs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Bits_n_Bobs


    monument wrote: »
    I’m not sure what you want the council to to? Maybe declare that they are a free independent city state that can overpower the national lawmakers???

    http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/onboard-cctv-cameras-help-keep-bus-lanes-clear

    Singaporean buses have had cameras installed since 2008 and they fast track prosecutions. No need for gardai involvement, simple civil prosecution if the legislature decide to get their **** together.


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