Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

DCC failed to impose a proper traffic management plan around college green until the new year. Taxi's are a big big problem at peak times blocking buses/trams. I'm sure the case could also be made for a reduction in bus services as well. Other issues are more light/signal timings which have been adjusted this week but that will take longer. Trams been blocked is the big problem.

The other big problem is that, due to not having sufficient trams in place, the seven additional trams not coming on stream until February or March, peak frequency on the Green Line to/from Brides Glen has been cut (there are three departures less between 07:30 and 08:30) to facilitate the new extension.

This has led to people being unable to board trams in the morning peak, particularly at the stops along Ballyogan Road, in some cases having to let three trams pass (which equates to almost 30 minutes) before being able to board one. This is particularly relevant as this area does not have a viable alternative bus service, as the buses were cut back to match revised demand levels some time ago.

Similarly peak frequency at Broombridge is far below what would be acceptable for a light rail system.

The short term outlook isn’t particularly good for the people on those branches as the article below outlines. Effectively the service was launched before the extra trams were delivered in order to say to the political masters that the it was delivered on time.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/luas-delays-and-overcrowding-to-continue-until-march-1.3329095?mode=amp

monument

LXFlyer wrote: »

The short term outlook isn’t particularly good for the people on those branches as the article below outlines. Effectively the service was launched before the extra trams were delivered in order to say to the political masters that the it was delivered on time.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/luas-delays-and-overcrowding-to-continue-until-march-1.3329095?mode=amp

I wonder if the tram order was made late to spread out the overall project — I’m guessing that might have also been the real delay at Broombridge.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

I wonder if the tram order was made late to spread out the overall project — I’m guessing that might have also been the real delay at Broombridge.

Whatever the reason, it is a disgraceful way to treat existing customers who no other public transport option.

The service should not have been launched until the fleet was in place, full stop, or at the very least a timetable drawn up that maintained existing service levels south of St Stephen’s Green by terminating some trams there, rather than going through the city centre.

ArmaniJeanss

LXFlyer wrote: »

Whatever the reason, it is a disgraceful way to treat existing customers who no other public transport option.

The service should not have been launched until the fleet was in place, full stop, or at the very least a timetable drawn up that maintained existing service levels south of St Stephen’s Green by terminating some trams there, rather than going through the city centre.

When Network Direct route&timetable changes added 15 minutes to my bus commute home iirc you defended it as necessary changes that everyone would just have to accept. 5+ years after the changes it would still be normal for people on the Blanch corridor to not be able to get on a succession of buses if they are waiting anywhere between Usher Quay and Drumalee between 5pm & 7pm.
I'm struggling to see why the Luas changes are a 'disgrace' whereas the bus changes were broadly ok.

LXFlyer

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

When Network Direct route&timetable changes added 15 minutes to my bus commute home iirc you defended it as necessary changes that everyone would just have to accept. 5+ years after the changes it would still be normal for people on the Blanch corridor to not be able to get on a succession of buses if they are waiting anywhere between Usher Quay and Drumalee between 5pm & 7pm.
I'm struggling to see why the Luas changes are a 'disgrace' whereas the bus changes were broadly ok.

The change is that the money wasn’t there when Network Direct took place, and a redesign of the network was needed to reflect that. No one liked the fact that some journeys would be longer, but the losses at DB and the drop in passenger numbers dictated it.

This is a completely different scenario where services have been cut to be able to trumpet a PR headline.

If you look through my posting history, you will also see that I’ve been critical of the rate of expansion of city bus services in Dublin, which hasn’t reflected the increase in working population - it has been ridiculously slow.

Chivito550

Can somebody please explain the shocking off peak and weekend frequency on the green line since the extension opened? I can understand the drop in frequency during peak hours due to not enough trams to cover the extended line, but there is absolutely no excuse for a drop in frequency during off peak and the weekend. Frequency is as bad as many bus services now. The allure of the LUAS was its frequency. If this nonsense remains then the LUAS is going to lose its appeal.

MJohnston

Chivito550 wrote: »

Can somebody please explain the shocking off peak and weekend frequency on the green line since the extension opened? I can understand the drop in frequency during peak hours due to not enough trams to cover the extended line, but there is absolutely no excuse for a drop in frequency during off peak and the weekend. Frequency is as bad as many bus services now. The allure of the LUAS was its frequency. If this nonsense remains then the LUAS is going to lose its appeal.

I don't know why the frequency is lower at weekends, perhaps they can't increase staff levels for drivers enough yet, without increased usage numbers? But, as has been stated many many times in this thread already, frequency will be improved once the new trams arrive.

Chivito550

MJohnston wrote: »

I don't know why the frequency is lower at weekends, perhaps they can't increase staff levels for drivers enough yet, without increased usage numbers? But, as has been stated many many times in this thread already, frequency will be improved once the new trams arrive.

I appreciate that regarding the new trams at peak hour, but the off peak frequency should never have changed.

MJohnston

Chivito550 wrote: »

I appreciate that regarding the new trams at peak hour, but the off peak frequency should never have changed.

Without knowing the reasoning behind why it is lower, I can't agree or disagree with what you're saying.

Vic_08

Chivito550 wrote: »

I appreciate that regarding the new trams at peak hour, but the off peak frequency should never have changed.

It's not as if the need for more trams and more drivers to keep the all day frequency constant can have come as a surprise.

You are correct there is no excuse for it.

If it were a separate new line with no existing customers than a soft opening with a ramp-up to full frequency would have been acceptable but impacting the already busy existing service for what seems like it is going to be an extended period is just bad management. The opening should have been delayed or the service on the new section curtailed until the full service was deliverable.

I was wondering before if they could temporarily transfer a few red line trams across but if they aren't even keeping the off-peak frequency up then it sounds like more than just a tram shortage.

Sam Russell

Vic_08 wrote: »

I was wondering before if they could temporarily transfer a few red line trams across but if they aren't even keeping the off-peak frequency up then it sounds like more than just a tram shortage.

I do not buy this shortage of trams.

They have 66 trams and 100 km of track between the two lines. (50km by 2). Spread 66 trams over 100 km means one tram per 1.5 kms. If the trams average 30 km /hr (or 1 km per 2 mins) then the trams would pass the same spot every three minutes. Now there are stops and turnaround, so allow 2 mins/tram per 1.5 kms, there is still one tram every five minutes, that is less than 20 km/hr average. Now a lot of the tram track is on segregated areas where speeds of up to 60km/hr are expected, so that should help with frequency. An eighteen minute gap should be considered outrageous.

Maybe someone can explain why the above logic is incorrect.

99 Bortles of Beer

If I want to get from Heuston to Sandyford, am I right in saying I get the red line from Heuston to Abbey Street, then walk to the nearest green stop (wherever that is, any suggestions?) and get it the rest of the way?

ArmaniJeanss

99 Bortles of Beer wrote: »

If I want to get from Heuston to Sandyford, am I right in saying I get the red line from Heuston to Abbey Street, then walk to the nearest green stop (wherever that is, any suggestions?) and get it the rest of the way?

Aye, get off at Abbey and walk to Marlborough St stop (about 90 metres eastwards)

Vic_08

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not buy this shortage of trams.

They have 66 trams and 100 km of track between the two lines. (50km by 2). Spread 66 trams over 100 km means one tram per 1.5 kms. If the trams average 30 km /hr (or 1 km per 2 mins) then the trams would pass the same spot every three minutes. Now there are stops and turnaround, so allow 2 mins/tram per 1.5 kms, there is still one tram every five minutes, that is less than 20 km/hr average. Now a lot of the tram track is on segregated areas where speeds of up to 60km/hr are expected, so that should help with frequency. An eighteen minute gap should be considered outrageous.

Maybe someone can explain why the above logic is incorrect.

You are overestimating the speed of Luas for one thing, it would be closer to 20kmh average. All the fleet won't be available at one time, maintenance etc; 60 out of 66 available for service would be a estimate.

Helpfully Luas do not produce timetables and have removed journey time info from the website so calculations are only estimates:

Assuming Bride's Glen - Broombridge at 1h10 each way and 5 minutes turnaround at each end. Each tram can do a lap in 2h30.

For a peak 10 min frequency you need 15 trams in service.
For a 5 min frequency you need 30.

It gets more complex when you add in the short running at Parnell and Sandyford and the inevitable lengthening of journey times at peaks due to crowding and traffic.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not buy this shortage of trams.

They have 66 trams and 100 km of track between the two lines. (50km by 2). Spread 66 trams over 100 km means one tram per 1.5 kms. If the trams average 30 km /hr (or 1 km per 2 mins) then the trams would pass the same spot every three minutes. Now there are stops and turnaround, so allow 2 mins/tram per 1.5 kms, there is still one tram every five minutes, that is less than 20 km/hr average. Now a lot of the tram track is on segregated areas where speeds of up to 60km/hr are expected, so that should help with frequency. An eighteen minute gap should be considered outrageous.

Maybe someone can explain why the above logic is incorrect.

They have already admitted there is a shortage of trams in the Irish Times article that I linked to in post #4055 above.

LXFlyer

Vic_08 wrote: »

You are overestimating the speed of Luas for one thing, it would be closer to 20kmh average. All the fleet won't be available at one time, maintenance etc; 60 out of 66 available for service would be a estimate.

Helpfully Luas do not produce timetables and have removed journey time info from the website so calculations are only estimates:

Assuming Bride's Glen - Broombridge at 1h10 each way and 5 minutes turnaround at each end. Each tram can do a lap in 2h30.

For a peak 10 min frequency you need 15 trams in service.
For a 5 min frequency you need 30.

It gets more complex when you add in the short running at Parnell and Sandyford and the inevitable lengthening of journey times at peaks due to crowding and traffic.

You can work the timetable out using the “Departures” function on the NTA Journey Planner, but it’s rather laborious to do.

But you’re right - it is far from the simple analysis presented above by Sam.

For example trams are allowed 6 minutes from O’Connell St Upper to the time they depart Parnell southwards.

BowSideChamp

LXFlyer wrote: »

You can work the timetable out using the “Departures” function on the NTA Journey Planner, but it’s rather laborious to do.

But you’re right - it is far from the simple analysis presented above.

For example trams are allowed 6 minutes from O’Connell St Upper to the time they depart Parnell southwards.

https://www.transportforireland.ie/transitData/PT_Data.html

LXFlyer

BowSideChamp wrote: »

https://www.transportforireland.ie/transitData/PT_Data.html

Unless you're a bit of a techie, that's not going to be a source of assistance - the departures function on the website is much more useful for any non-technical person rather than looking at the Google Transit files.

The LUAS posters also linked to incidentally only show the average frequencies, and not the actual timetable.

The full timetable pdf has still to be uploaded to the Journey Planner website.

wakka12

Maybe its just the christmas rush, but waited at dundrum for ten minutes for a tram today @ 1.30 pm. Too many people were trying to get on so missed it. Then next one came 15 minutes later. The countdown clock was also not accurate, each minute was delayed, so it was actually more than 15 minutes. .. Is this very poor? Or more typical because its during christmas period?

I guess Ive never really scrutinised luas times until this cross city opened

Vic_08

wakka12 wrote: »

Maybe its just the christmas rush, but waited at dundrum for ten minutes for a tram today @ 1.30 pm. Too many people were trying to get on so missed it. Then next one came 15 minutes later. The countdown clock was also not accurate, each minute was delayed, so it was actually more than 15 minutes. .. Is this very poor? Or more typical because its during christmas period?

I guess Ive never really scrutinised luas times until this cross city opened

Just like anything else that is predicting an event in the future, it is an estimation not a fact.

Once the trams get busy to the point of leaving people behind the station times are going to increase as people jostle and either push on or admit defeat and give up trying to board so a tram that would normally take 10 mns to do 4 stops takes 13 mns and unless there is enough slack in the timetabling this can ripple forward through the schedule and cause even more issues.

People on these boards constantly bitch about the unreliability of transport. The effect of one problem in one aspect of a service causing more and more delays is is one of the main things that people don't appreciate.

A traffic jam or a shortage of a vehicle or driver at one point can radiate forward for hours and across routes if they are interconnected in any way. One problem can slow down subsequent services which then cannot return on time causing further delays, if it escalates then drivers have to drop laps to get back on schedule and this then causes more problems.

How badly the effect is relies on how much recovery time is built into the timetable and how much spare resources are available to recover the service. The problem with generous recovery in timetables and hot spares is that they are costly and when the figures are crunched in the accounting department (or by know-alls on the internet) they make an operation look inefficient. Asset sweating efficiency/cheap as possible or better able to recover from delays; pick one because you can't have both.

It would seem Luas has been forced to the edge insofar as they amount of trams they can put on the line and the strain this is putting on the service is snowballing.

trellheim

Not really surprised to be honest.

A relatively closed tram system with only a small amount of onstreet running ( harcourt street ) has now had one end opened to a disruptive influence . This will continue for probably the next year, and well beyond until the extra trams and the system has bedded down . The worst influence will be on the middle of the line,where the turn-up-and-go will be badly felt - see above.

This isn't transdev's fault, all they can do to help would be to turn trams short at SSG but that would cause havoc at the northern end and there's no shuttle platform like Heuston

LuckyLloyd

wakka12 wrote: »

Maybe its just the christmas rush, but waited at dundrum for ten minutes for a tram today @ 1.30 pm. Too many people were trying to get on so missed it. Then next one came 15 minutes later. The countdown clock was also not accurate, each minute was delayed, so it was actually more than 15 minutes. .. Is this very poor? Or more typical because its during christmas period?

I guess Ive never really scrutinised luas times until this cross city opened

They were clearly not operationally ready for the Cross City launch. It should not have been signed off. Flat out incompetence.

No, it is not normal. What you’re describing is a significant regression in service.

LuckyLloyd

trellheim wrote: »

Not really surprised to be honest.

A relatively closed tram system with only a small amount of onstreet running ( harcourt street ) has now had one end opened to a disruptive influence . This will continue for probably the next year, and well beyond until the extra trams and the system has bedded down . The worst influence will be on the middle of the line,where the turn-up-and-go will be badly felt - see above.

This isn't transdev's fault, all they can do to help would be to turn trams short at SSG but that would cause havoc at the northern end and there's no shuttle platform like Heuston

They are surely culpable? They run the service and the service is now ****. Why are they agreeing to this?

Nalz

Think I know the answer to this but triple checking

People who have inter city train annual tickets that want to switch at Broomsbridge to luas, will have to buy a luas ticket also?

LXFlyer

Nalz wrote: »

Think I know the answer to this but triple checking

People who have inter city train annual tickets that want to switch at Broomsbridge to luas, will have to buy a luas ticket also?

Absolutely - separate fares.

Dardania

I'm beginning to wonder if the reason they launched with lower frequency than required is deliberate: because they now have this interaction with loads more traffic at college green, D'Olier Street, O'Connell street etc., perhaps they wanted a lower frequency to enable everyone get used to the Luas there, make any mods to traffic patterns, bus routing etc. - before trying to run a full service through that area.

Painful in the short term, but long term might be better for familiarity and by implementing lessons learned.

G_R

LXFlyer wrote: »

Absolutely - separate fares.

On the Kildare line at least, you can buy a ticket to Dublin City Centre instead of Dublin Hueston, and that covers the Luas or 90 Bus. Is that not possible with the Maynooth Line?

LXFlyer

G_R wrote: »

On the Kildare line at least, you can buy a ticket to Dublin City Centre instead of Dublin Hueston, and that covers the Luas or 90 Bus. Is that not possible with the Maynooth Line?

No because the Maynooth Line trains already serve the city centre stations (Connolly, Tara St and Pearse).

LXFlyer

Dardania wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder if the reason they launched with lower frequency than required is deliberate: because they now have this interaction with loads more traffic at college green, D'Olier Street, O'Connell street etc., perhaps they wanted a lower frequency to enable everyone get used to the Luas there, make any mods to traffic patterns, bus routing etc. - before trying to run a full service through that area.

Painful in the short term, but long term might be better for familiarity and by implementing lessons learned.

The problem with that argument is that the morning peak frequency isn’t lower between Sandyford and the city centre. It’s the section between Brides Glen and Sandyford that has been cut back.

Dardania

LXFlyer wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder if the reason they launched with lower frequency than required is deliberate: because they now have this interaction with loads more traffic at college green, D'Olier Street, O'Connell street etc., perhaps they wanted a lower frequency to enable everyone get used to the Luas there, make any mods to traffic patterns, bus routing etc. - before trying to run a full service through that area.

Painful in the short term, but long term might be better for familiarity and by implementing lessons learned.

The problem with that argument is that the morning peak frequency isn’t lower between Sandyford and the city centre. It’s the section between Brides Glen and Sandyford that has been cut back.

Fair point. But nevertheless, the throughput in the city centre area is no greater than it was before - will it increase when the full complement of trams are operational? Broombridge originating trams all turn at Sandyford right?