Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

donvito99

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree. We need dart underground and underground lines in city centre. Not more of that luas joke. In a city of over a million, that funnels everything down one extremely narrow channel. It's insane!

You make an argument against infrastructure on the basis of some disruption, and then propose infrastrtucture that will entail massive disruption at a similarly massive cost.

Idbatterim

donvito99 wrote: »

You make an argument against infrastructure on the basis of some disruption, and then propose infrastrtucture that will entail massive disruption at a similarly massive cost.

one fork is appropriate for Dublin City centre. On street luas in city centre is a joke. Either out in proper underground lines like metro north and I'd prefer brt to on street luas in city centre, assuming they are electric, no driver interaction etc.

Idbatterim

donvito99 wrote: »

You make an argument against infrastructure on the basis of some disruption, and then propose infrastrtucture that will entail massive disruption at a similarly massive cost.

Luas is glacial through the city centre. Bloody expensive. It's fixed. Issues with cyclists. Took years to build. Years of disruption and the cost average out at around sixty million per km! Including the rolling stock afaik

Bray Head

Semantics. The Luas has a schedule. 

You can look on www.journeyplanner.transportforireland.ie and it gives consistent departure times from day to day.

bk

Obviously we need to build underground too, but if you look at any European city with a similar population size you will find that they also have many tram routes.

Take Amsterdam, almost the same population size and density as Dublin. They have hundreds of bus routes, 15 trams routes and 4 metro routes.

There are many routes around Dublin that there is more demand then buses can handle, but not enough for Metro. This is where Trams come into play.

The issue with Tram congestion in the city center is resolved by removing cars, plain and simple.

Also in the long term, Dublin Bus will need to get comfortable with the idea that they won't have access to the core city center. That it will be served by Trams and Metros. Buses will be used more outside the city centers to link neighbourhoods to these. That is how it works in most European cities, in the core city center you don't see any buses, only trams (and metro stations).

Zebra3

Can’t see that happening.

bk

Zebra3 wrote: »

Can’t see that happening.

It is already happening.

Massive reductions in the number of cars on O'Connell St has already happened due to the two Luas lines and car restrictions. The Bus gate also radically restricted cars.

Similar restrictions have been introduced on the quays and will be tightened in time.

There are attempting to close College Green and either way it will be further restricted.

As more Luas lines are built through the city, more restrictions will happen.

NTA/DCC/Government policy on this is very clear.

Of course I'm not saying that this will happen tomorrow, but it is a very clear trend that will continue over the next few decades.

50 years from now, I expect there won't be a single car in the core city center and few buses.

Instead lots of criss-crossing Luas lines, Metro Stations and lots of pedestrians and cyclists. Just take a trip to Amsterdam/Copenhagen/Prague and you can see it in action today.

roadmaster

bk wrote: »

It is already happening.

Massive reductions in the number of cars on O'Connell St has already happened due to the two Luas lines and car restrictions. The Bus gate also radically restricted cars.

Similar restrictions have been introduced on the quays and will be tightened in time.

There are attempting to close College Green and either way it will be further restricted.

As more Luas lines are built through the city, more restrictions will happen.

NTA/DCC/Government policy on this is very clear.

Of course I'm not saying that this will happen tomorrow, but it is a very clear trend that will continue over the next few decades.

50 years from now, I expect there won't be a single car in the core city center and few buses.

Instead lots of criss-crossing Luas lines, Metro Stations and lots of pedestrians and cyclists. Just take a trip to Amsterdam/Copenhagen/Prague and you can see it in action today.

In 50 years no one will own a car I suspect the way trends are going

wakka12

roadmaster wrote: »

In 50 years no one will own a car I suspect the way trends are going

One would hope. Then we can leave clean sustainable and enjoyable cities for future generations to enjoy

Even if they do not go away completely cars in general will decrease in size hugely as they are electrified or driven by other non fossil fuel sources

bk

roadmaster wrote: »

In 50 years no one will own a car I suspect the way trends are going

Yes, but we will still have self driving electric "cars". And while pod cars might use the space more efficiently, I still don't think there will be space for them in the core city center, specially with the expected population growth over that time.

Self driving cars will help greatly to take people from their homes to the closest metro/luas/dart station and then into the city.

BTW I said 50 years, but I'd say the city will be car free and buses reduced in just 20 years. Once we have MN and DU, it will accelerate.

Winters

Does anyone know if the turnback facility on Stephen's Green North is in use?

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to use Sandyford to SSG shortrunnings at peak until the 9 section trams are in use.

Zebra3

bk wrote: »

It is already happening.

Massive reductions in the number of cars on O'Connell St has already happened due to the two Luas lines and car restrictions. The Bus gate also radically restricted cars.

Similar restrictions have been introduced on the quays and will be tightened in time.

There are attempting to close College Green and either way it will be further restricted.

As more Luas lines are built through the city, more restrictions will happen.

NTA/DCC/Government policy on this is very clear.

Of course I'm not saying that this will happen tomorrow, but it is a very clear trend that will continue over the next few decades.

50 years from now, I expect there won't be a single car in the core city center and few buses.

Instead lots of criss-crossing Luas lines, Metro Stations and lots of pedestrians and cyclists. Just take a trip to Amsterdam/Copenhagen/Prague and you can see it in action today.

My reference was with regard to buses. I’m fully aware of the gradual reduction of space for cars in the city which is a great thing.

But I don’t see the disappearance of buses from the city centre any time soon. And what further Luas lines are going to be built in the city?

Have you actually been to Copenhagen? Loads of private cars going along HCA Boulevard and Vesterbrogade 24/7. Loads of buses on HCA Boulevard and around Rådhuspladsen too.

wakka12

Zebra3 wrote: »

My reference was with regard to buses. I’m fully aware of the gradual reduction of space for cars in the city which is a great thing.

But I don’t see the disappearance of buses from the city centre any time soon. And what further Luas lines are going to be built in the city?

Have you actually been to Copenhagen? Loads of private cars going along HCA Boulevard and Vesterbrogade 24/7. Loads of buses on HCA Boulevard and around Rådhuspladsen too.

College green to Lucan western luas line

I don't see the need for any other luas lines in dublin beyond that, + Metro and DU. Beyond that I think is overkill..apart from improving bus/pedestrian/cycling facilities

Nermal

bk wrote: »

50 years from now, I expect there won't be a single car in the core city center and few buses.

Instead lots of criss-crossing Luas lines, Metro Stations and lots of pedestrians and cyclists. Just take a trip to Amsterdam/Copenhagen/Prague and you can see it in action today.

So... Why should we wait 50 years then?

Idbatterim

how much will that lucan line cost? If cost is the be all and end all, they better simply get the projects of incomparable importance built first i.e. MN and DU...

bk

Zebra3 wrote: »

Have you actually been to Copenhagen? Loads of private cars going along HCA Boulevard and Vesterbrogade 24/7. Loads of buses on HCA Boulevard and around Rådhuspladsen too.

Oh god, the HCA, considered a complete travesty of 1950's planing, that cut the city in half! Not a great example:

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2017/05/arrogance-of-space-copenhagen-hans.html

LXFlyer

Winters wrote: »

Does anyone know if the turnback facility on Stephen's Green North is in use?

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to use Sandyford to SSG shortrunnings at peak until the 9 section trams are in use.

One of the most sensible suggestions posted yet - the numbers on LCC would cope with some turn backs at SSG.

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

One of the most sensible suggestions posted yet - the numbers on LCC would cope with some turn backs at SSG.

I suspect it's too late for that now, I don't know exactly what peak loadings are like on the Broombridge section, but there are a significant amount of commuters now relying on it and the established service. Cutting that service now would still be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

I suspect it's too late for that now, I don't know exactly what peak loadings are like on the Broombridge section, but there are a significant amount of commuters now relying on it and the established service. Cutting that service now would still be robbing Peter to pay Paul.

I’m not suggesting cutting anything from Broombridge.

I am suggesting that turning back some of the Parnell terminators at SSG would solve the crush load factors on the southern section.

The loadings through the LCC section to Parnell don’t warrant the current frequency. Cutting that back by turning some at SSG would enable frequency south of Sandyford to be adjusted back to previous levels.

LeinsterDub

LXFlyer wrote: »

I’m not suggesting cutting anything from Broombridge.

I am suggesting that turning back some of the Parnell terminators at SSG would solve the crush load factors on the southern section.

The loadings through the LCC section to Parnell don’t warrant the current frequency. Cutting that back by turning some at SSG would enable frequency south of Sandyford to be adjusted back to previous levels.

SSG to Parnell is only 10 minutes . How will turning back at SSG increase frequency?

MJohnston

LeinsterDub wrote: »

SSG to Parnell is only 10 minutes . How will turning back at SSG increase frequency?

Presumably because you'd have to measure SSG to Parnell to SSG time, not just to Parnell.

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

SSG to Parnell is only 10 minutes . How will turning back at SSG increase frequency?

26 mins round trip from SSG-Parnell-SSG (incl wait time at Parnell) - reduce frequency on the SSG-Parnell-SSG section means that the trams that turn back at SSG can get back to Sandyford in that time to operate another inbound service releasing other trams currently starting at Sandyford to start at Brides Glen.

The morning peak service is in a complete mess on the southside and something needs to be done about it.

Trams could be used far more productively.

trellheim

Yes I did suggest this a while ago. What about temporary redeployment of 1 or 2 red line trams to help out

Jamie2k9

trellheim wrote: »

Yes I did suggest this a while ago. What about temporary redeployment of 1 or 2 red line trams to help out

Red Line cant cope with losing a tran.

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

Yes I did suggest this a while ago. What about temporary redeployment of 1 or 2 red line trams to help out

They already have red line trams redeployed, and I don’t think there’s any more spares available.

Jamie2k9

LXFlyer wrote: »

LeinsterDub wrote: »

SSG to Parnell is only 10 minutes . How will turning back at SSG increase frequency?

26 mins round trip from SSG-Parnell-SSG (incl wait time at Parnell) - reduce frequency on the SSG-Parnell-SSG section means that the trams that turn back at SSG can get back to Sandyford in that time to operate another inbound service releasing other trams currently starting at Sandyford to start at Brides Glen.

The morning peak service is in a complete mess on the southside and something needs to be done about it.

Trams could be used far more productively.

There is probably high numbers alighting between SSG and Parnell so wont happen.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is probably high numbers alighting between SSG and Parnell so wont happen.

I’ve gone out observing it (as have some others) and there are anything but high numbers on that section currently (particularly the Parnell stoppers).

Last week one morning the average over the peak period passing Westmoreland stop was just over 40 per tram.

The vast majority of people get off at or before SSG.

You could easily reduce the frequency north of SSG and still carry everyone comfortably, and at the same time improve the situation south of Sandyford.

technocrat

LXFlyer wrote: »

I’ve gone out observing it (as have some others) and there are anything but high numbers on that section currently (particularly the Parnell stoppers).

Last week one morning the average over the peak period passing Westmoreland stop was just over 40 per tram.

The vast majority of people get off at or before SSG.

You could easily reduce the frequency north of SSG and still carry everyone comfortably, and at the same time improve the situation south of Sandyford.

+1

I work in Ballsbridge and take the 4 bus which runs along a lot of the LCC line.
The northbound trams on O’Connell st have particularly light loadings most have plenty of empty seats and very little waiting passengers on the platforms.

Compared to the nearby red line the difference on passenger volumes is huge.
The southbound tram loadings are no better maybe slightly more passengers even the Trinity platform is very quite.

However, the least used stop seems to be Broadstone while sitting at the lights I’ve counted as little as 2 people waiting at this stop and this at evening rush hour!

When you factor in the negative effect LCC has on DB especially trying to get through D’Olier st the overall net effect is a poorer service for the majority of commuting passengers.

Jamie2k9

LXFlyer wrote: »

I’ve gone out observing it (as have some others) and there are anything but high numbers on that section currently (particularly the Parnell stoppers).

Last week one morning the average over the peak period passing Westmoreland stop was just over 40 per tram.

The vast majority of people get off at or before SSG.

You could easily reduce the frequency north of SSG and still carry everyone comfortably, and at the same time improve the situation south of Sandyford.

Fair enough, I would still be against terminating at SSG, would ease pressure on DCC to deal with CG which would be a disaster. I'm sure people can cope for another 2.5 weeks.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Fair enough, I would still be against terminating at SSG, would ease pressure on DCC to deal with CG which would be a disaster. I'm sure people can cope for another 2.5 weeks.

With respect that’s a cop out.

People have been left waiting for up to 25 minutes to get on trams south of Sandyford, in an area where there are no viable alternative public tranport options (the bus service having been cut back some years ago in line with reduced demand).

It’s simply not good enough to say everything will be ok by March, when this problem could be addressed now. It’s an appalling way to treat existing customers.

I’d seriously question the need for a 3 minute frequency on LCC based on my observations - a six minute frequency would be sufficient.

DCC will have to deal with this regardless when the longer trams arrive and I seriously worry that they are going to cause mayhem in the city centre. Having some SSG terminators at peak times are in my view a sensible compromise.