Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Sam Russell

MJohnston wrote: »

They were ordered for delivery before the new line was opened, but then there were delays on the manufacturing side.

And the line opened early. Well, on time, but you get the idea.

yabadabado

MJohnston wrote: »

They were ordered for delivery before the new line was opened, but then there were delays on the manufacturing side.

Long delays?

Didn't see that reported anywhere.

MJohnston

yabadabado wrote: »

Long delays?

Didn't see that reported anywhere.

Originally it was reported that they would be delivered "in advance of the Green Line extension coming into operation at the end of 2017":

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/new-trams-ordered-for-luas-cross-city/

I don't know where the delay was reported, but it was mentioned a lot on here.

Muahahaha

I wonder would there be a financial penalty in the contract for the tram manufacturers in delivering the trams three months late?

bk

LXFlyer wrote: »

I was just making clear what I was suggesting (lest anyone think otherwise)!

I just wanted to apologise to you LXFlyer, I clearly got you mixed up with another poster who was suggesting shutting down the whole city center section. Sorry about that.

Muahahaha wrote: »

I wonder would there be a financial penalty in the contract for the tram manufacturers in delivering the trams three months late?

I would assume so, there normally is.

It would also explain why the line opened on time, the construction companies face similar penalties if it runs late and also sometimes get a bonus for early completion.

L1011

Early completion bonuses are a thing of the past, they were an extremely bad idea as they incentivised over-estimating delivery time. Incentives for anything at all usually come back to bite.

CramCycle

L1011 wrote: »

Early completion bonuses are a thing of the past, they were an extremely bad idea as they incentivised over-estimating delivery time. Incentives for anything at all usually come back to bite.

Work very well in the Netherlands and Germany from what I seen. Items are put out to tender so over estimating by much is not really a thing as you risk losing the contract to others. They also have time penalties passed the completion date equivalent to the money lost in ticket fares per day, which is alot but as fair a fine as any.

Muahahaha

Is this week the first of college students being back? Any noticeable impact?

beauf

LXFlyer wrote: »

I....Transport companies all across the world reassess timetables and stock allocation in line with demand to deal with overcrowding on a regular basis, and I don't see why LUAS should be any different.....

When we complain about the commuter trains overcrowding, we are told its within the weight limit of the carriages, and normal for peak train services world wide. Missing a commuter can be 30 mins or more till the next one. Whereas the LUAS or Dart its a lot less.

They shorten the commuter trains I get at peak. They could take out the baggage racks off the intercity trains and create standing space for a lot more people.

wakka12

Muahahaha wrote: »

Is this week the first of college students being back? Any noticeable impact?

I have absolutely no idea why this is but every monday evening rush hour Ive taken the luas its been either really or pretty quiet, then every other evening of the week jammers

Muahahaha

Noticed today that the Luas going northbound from Westmoreland St gets a clear run to OCS- was that always the case from the launch day? I had thought that the clear run wasnt going to be implemented until the longer trams came into service.

Otherwise Ive noticed the quays are very jammed inbound morning time from Ormond Quay to OCS and outbound from Tara St in the evenings. Is this a direct consequence of LCC ? And anyone know if a two trams are crossing the river simultaneously at peak times or can it be the case that traffic is stopped to let one tram cross and then the same happens again some 2 minutes later?

Jamie2k9

Muahahaha wrote: »

Noticed today that the Luas going northbound from Westmoreland St gets a clear run to OCS- was that always the case from the launch day? I had thought that the clear run wasnt going to be implemented until the longer trams came into service.

Otherwise Ive noticed the quays are very jammed inbound morning time from Ormond Quay to OCS and outbound from Tara St in the evenings. Is this a direct consequence of LCC ? And anyone know if a two trams are crossing the river simultaneously at peak times or can it be the case that traffic is stopped to let one tram cross and then the same happens again some 2 minutes later?

They have mostly got a clear run but not guaranteed. Will be interesting to see how they manage with longer ones which have been out on the network over the last week and due into service soon.

Idbatterim

I am assuming the traffic situation would be even worse if it ran both directions over OCB?

Jamie2k9

Idbatterim wrote: »

I am assuming the traffic situation would be even worse if it ran both directions over OCB?

Some would argue both ways. IMO I would of built it both directions over OCB and OCS. When you consider the Red Line Abbey Junction, more often than not trams are cleared together because of the longer wait times and the same would of probally happened if both went over OCB.

Some of the arguments for the line split have been proved completely wrong since it opened because look how many bus routes were displaced and part of the reason for splitting the line was for bus operations in the city center.

Muahahaha

Like others I had always thought that both lines should go up OCS. But iirc the main reason for not doing so was to allow a turn back at Parnell St which makes sense as not all trams need to terminate at Broombridge. I am not sure if they ever looked at placing a turn back somewhere else (perhaps a siding on Domnick St?)

BoatMad

The one thing Im sure of , having travelled on cross city for the first time recently, College green and its approaches needs to be cleared of Busses ( and everything else ) to make Luas work, thats patiently obvious

LXFlyer

BoatMad wrote: »

The one thing Im sure of , having travelled on cross city for the first time recently, College green and its approaches needs to be cleared of Busses ( and everything else ) to make Luas work, thats patiently obvious

Despite the fact that the buses carry more people, most of whom do not have LUAS as an option and who still need to get to the city centre....great logic that.

People keep ignoring the other option - look at focussing the 3 minute frequency between Sandyford and St Stephen's Green where it is needed most, and reduce the frequency on the SSG-Parnell section.

That would free up trams to improve frequency to/from Broombridge and Brides Glen in the morning peak.

It seems to be the RPA's way and no one else's right now.

BoatMad

LXFlyer wrote: »

Despite the fact that the buses carry more people, most of whom do not have LUAS as an option and who still need to get to the city centre....great logic that.

People keep ignoring the other option - look at focussing the 3 minute frequency between Sandyford and St Stephen's Green where it is needed most, and reduce the frequency on the SSG-Parnell section.

That would free up trams to improve frequency to/from Broombridge and Brides Glen in the morning peak.

It seems to be the RPA's way and no one else's right now.

its irrelevant,

having built cross city, it needs to work effectively , you cant have trams , that cant " get out of the way " stuck behind busses and taxis as they make there way around stephens green

the whole concept of on street trams, is predicated on essentially a traffic free environment, its was why they disappeared in the 50s and 60s. The two modes of transport can not easily intermix and thats the end of that

No point arguing we should " have not started from here at all " , bit late now

Spanish Eyes

I'm just thinking out loud here, dangerous thing, and I know it's far too late for this, but would a contra flow for LUAS from Westmoreland St up the East side of OCS have helped in any way do you think?

The buses going over OCS from Bachelor's Walk (on a dedicated lane Southbound) would not have to wait for the LUAS to cross.

Ah forget it, I'm just raving as usual.

BoatMad

I asked earlier where it was decided that LUAS should be prioritised over all other forms of transport in the city centre. Still waiting.

Buses could flow easily through College Green if all taxis were blocked and pedestrian dwell times increased - that wasn't done, yet somehow the LUAS is sacrosant and must glide through without any interruption.

We should have built a monorail.

search and read , "RPA BXD Outline Business Case", June 2009

it outlines the significant change to bus stops and road traffic in the college green area and in general outlines stated objectives from several transport plans to develop on street light rail

its not like this wasnt flagged to anyone who bothered to find out

hmmm

BoatMad wrote: »

search and read , "RPA BXD Online Business Case", June 2009

Fascinating, thanks.

"It has been assumed in the RPA multi-modal transport model that bus speeds will decrease and journey times will increase on certain bus routes that parallel Luas Line BXD. The speeds of buses running along Luas Line BXD between O‟Connell St and St Stephen‟s Green have been reduced to reflect the decrease in road space resulting from scheme implementation and increased congestion on these parallel routes. "

They weren't wrong. How did the RPA get to sign off on increased traffic congestion and slower bus speeds?

LeinsterDub

hmmm wrote: »

Fascinating, thanks.

"It has been assumed in the RPA multi-modal transport model that bus speeds will decrease and journey times will increase on certain bus routes that parallel Luas Line BXD. The speeds of buses running along Luas Line BXD between O‟Connell St and St Stephen‟s Green have been reduced to reflect the decrease in road space resulting from scheme implementation and increased congestion on these parallel routes. "

They weren't wrong. How did the RPA get to sign off on increased traffic congestion and slower bus speeds?

Because it's only parallel routes and they made the case that a model shift would occur in a "mutli-modal transport model". We still don't have this model. For example my quickest (actually second quickest as I generally cycle) way to work would be Bus to the Broadstone and Luas to Harcourt St but because there is an extra fare for making that switch I don't. In fact any Bus that heads towards OCS at the Broadstone should no longer do so.

LXFlyer

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Because it's only parallel routes and they made the case that a model shift would occur in a "mutli-modal transport model". We still don't have this model. For example my quickest (actually second quickest as I generally cycle) way to work would be Bus to the Broadstone and Luas to Harcourt St but because there is an extra fare for making that switch I don't. In fact any Bus that heads towards OCS at the Broadstone should no longer do so.

That’s not a very practical suggestion when there are 20 minute gaps in service on the LUAS during the morning peak from Broombridge and 24 minute gaps all day on Sundays.

Dyr

So does anyone know what the deal is with the Luas having exemption from traffic laws?

Was it legislated for or is it another Irish solution?

FreudianSlippers

Bambi wrote: »

So does anyone know what the deal is with the Luas having exemption from traffic laws?

Was it legislated for or is it another Irish solution?

What do you mean by this?

Dyr

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

What do you mean by this?

Blocking pedestrians crossings

Blocking box junctions

The usual kind of stuff

Muahahaha

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

What do you mean by this?

I would presume he means trams blocking up yellow boxes in order to trigger their next set of lights, it seems to be causing traffic jams as nothing is moving on green lights when a tram blocks a junction.

FreudianSlippers

But I mean... that's a design problem as opposed to really a "rules of the road" problem isn't it?

Sam Russell

Muahahaha wrote: »

I would presume he means trams blocking up yellow boxes in order to trigger their next set of lights, it seems to be causing traffic jams as nothing is moving on green lights when a tram blocks a junction.

The solution to that is to give trams priority through junctions. They take less time to pass a junction a full speed than from a standing start. Also, only one tram can pass a junction at a time (since they are separated by several minutes from each other) but normal traffic - such as buses and taxis - can flood across at a green line in whatever numbers they can.

Now, priority would not work everywhere, but where yellow box junctions exist, it would make sense since the back of the tram cannot get out of the way.

LuckyLloyd

BoatMad wrote: »

The one thing Im sure of , having travelled on cross city for the first time recently, College green and its approaches needs to be cleared of Busses ( and everything else ) to make Luas work, thats patiently obvious

Those busses are more important because they carry more people from a much wider catchment area.