Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Wild Bill

Still nearly an hour Saggart to Point Depot - even with all those stops gone :eek:

Oh - that's with the stops still there....

dubhthach

Wild Bill wrote: »

Still nearly an hour Saggart to Point Depot - even with all those stops gone :eek:

Oh - that's with the stops still there....

Showing my ignorance here, but how long would it take to get from Saggart to the Point via other means of transport?

NB. I've never been out that neck of the woods.

An Cuinneach

Winters wrote: »

There are two instances of tram stops being too close together on the Red Line. I would certainly question why 1. Rialto & Fatima and 2. Goldenbridge & Drimnagh are only 300m apart..

Thats 5 minutes walking distance and no doubt could shave about 4 minutes off the travel time?


http://www.luas.ie/red-line-journey-times.html

Imagine removing the Hospital, Goldenbridge, Fatima, Four Courts and Connolly Stops.. What kind of improved journey time would we have then end to end?

On the Green line the Stillorgan and Sandyford stops are also 350m apart. As part of the LAP for Sandyford it was proposed to move the Stillorgan stop to the corner of Blackthorn Drive but I dont believe that went any further.

Anything less than 500m is quite pointless.

+1

AngryLips

Commenting purely on the city centre stops I think it was a mistake to have Jervis and Abbey Street stops where they are. The commercial area begins at Capel Street and there should be a stop here. having the first stop smack bang in the middle of the Northside commercial area at Jervis means that half the passengers destined for this area are forced to back-track on their journey. Ideally, there should be a stop at Capel Street, no stop at Jervis and the Abbey Street stop should be brought forward to the side of Easons on O'Connell Street. Just my two cent.

Wild Bill

dubhthach wrote: »

Showing my ignorance here, but how long would it take to get from Saggart to the Point via other means of transport?

NB. I've never been out that neck of the woods.

Saggart to N7 at Rathcoole - Red Cow - M50 at Sandyford (15 minutes); J14 to N11 (5 mins); N11 to Booterstown (5 mins); Booterstown - The Point via Merrion Gates and East Link (10 mins)

Total 35 mins.

Of course that's off-peak

Wild Bill

From: Saggart, Dublin, County Dublin
To: East Link Toll Bridge, Dublin, County Dublin
Distance: 20.60 km (Show in Miles)
Time: 0 hr 27 min

Though AA reckons you'd do it in 27 mins via the Naas Rd and along the quays.

Definitely off peak!

Wild Bill

From: Saggart, Dublin, County Dublin
To: East Link Toll Bridge, Dublin, County Dublin
Distance: 35.57 km (Show in Miles)
Time: 0 hr 39 min

In fact the AA would take 39 minutes to go by my route; obviously they don't use the N7/M50 at full throttle

rOBeRt frETt

the only other means are by car - anywhere from 35 mins to 1 hour or by bus 65B and the 50 they both take an hour - or maybe a couple of minutes less or more, however both bus routes are like enduring some kind of Chinese torture. The 65B runs twice an hour and serves what must be the most catchall route there ever was. citywest-blessington road-jobstown-square-tallaght bypass-templeouge-terenure-rathmines you couldn't be more indirect without going to the northside first and then back again. dusting off my bike this week- don't get me started on the cycle lanes

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Yet, so many people choice Luas.

The buses from Heuston can be quicker in a lot of cases, but if you add in waiting time for a bus, Luas becomes more attractive most of the time for most people.

Because people think that because it is on rails it has to be better.

Unfortunately people find it very hard to believe that the bus can actually be better than the tram.

As for waiting time - with a 145 every 10 minutes and a 90 every 15 minutes, and a 25a/25b every 5 minutes wait time at peak periods is hardly an issue.

Certainly at peak time enough people are aware of the faster bus times - one look at the loadings on the buses leaving Heuston will tell you that.

Off-peak the 145 is still every 10 minutes throughout the day.

LXFlyer

rOBeRt frETt wrote: »

the only other means are by car - anywhere from 35 mins to 1 hour or by bus 65B and the 50 they both take an hour - or maybe a couple of minutes less or more, however both bus routes are like enduring some kind of Chinese torture. The 65B runs twice an hour and serves what must be the most catchall route there ever was. citywest-blessington road-jobstown-square-tallaght bypass-templeouge-terenure-rathmines you couldn't be more indirect without going to the northside first and then back again. dusting off my bike this week- don't get me started on the cycle lanes

The 50 is no more, replaced by a longer 77a.

As for the 65b, with the exception of serving Killinarden and Tallaght Village it is a reasonably direct service from Citywest into the City Centre as it follows the Templeogue QBC for its entirety.

The LUAS would be the fastest regular form of public transport between the city and Citywest, but Mortons operate one service in either direction each day that operates directly along the N7 which may be faster (scheduled to take 40 minutes).

Victor

rOBeRt frETt wrote: »

the only other means are by car - anywhere from 35 mins to 1 hour or by bus 65B and the 50 they both take an hour - or maybe a couple of minutes less or more, however both bus routes are like enduring some kind of Chinese torture. The 65B runs twice an hour and serves what must be the most catchall route there ever was. citywest-blessington road-jobstown-square-tallaght bypass-templeouge-terenure-rathmines you couldn't be more indirect without going to the northside first and then back again. dusting off my bike this week- don't get me started on the cycle lanes

Not everyone from Tallaght is going to the city centre.

starviewadams

Winters wrote: »

There are two instances of tram stops being too close together on the Red Line. I would certainly question why 1. Rialto & Fatima and 2. Goldenbridge & Drimnagh are only 300m apart..

Thats 5 minutes walking distance and no doubt could shave about 4 minutes off the travel time?


http://www.luas.ie/red-line-journey-times.html

Imagine removing the Hospital, Goldenbridge, Fatima, Four Courts and Connolly Stops.. What kind of improved journey time would we have then end to end?

On the Green line the Stillorgan and Sandyford stops are also 350m apart. As part of the LAP for Sandyford it was proposed to move the Stillorgan stop to the corner of Blackthorn Drive but I dont believe that went any further.

Anything less than 500m is quite pointless.

Why would you remove the stop at James?it's always quite busy and people use it to get to the hospital,same with the Four Courts.

Aard

He never suggested James's. Maybe you're mistaking it for the stop called "Hospital" which serves Tallaght Hospital.

Cathaoirleach

As I see it, the problem is priority at traffic lights.

Even though the tram requests priority at junctions, it still has to wait for the traffic sequence to finish.

The system should instead force the junction to stop other traffic immediately, even if that traffic has only been given green for a few seconds.

And all this needs to be timed so that the tram doesn't have to stop or slow at the junction at all.

Example: A tram at the Abbey Street stop heading to Tallaght. The driver requests priority, waits for the vertical bar, and then accelerates out of Abbey Street, traversing O'Connell street without delay.

Problem?

Wild Bill

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Problem?

Winters

Aard wrote: »

He never suggested James's. Maybe you're mistaking it for the stop called "Hospital" which serves Tallaght Hospital.

Thats correct. Another poster previously noted the the particular limitations of the catchment area of the 'Hospital' stop in Tallaght.

It would be interesting to know the RPA's figures on a stop usage basis.

LXFlyer

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

As I see it, the problem is priority at traffic lights.



Even though the tram requests priority at junctions, it still has to wait for the traffic sequence to finish.



The system should instead force the junction to stop other traffic immediately, even if that traffic has only been given green for a few seconds.



And all this needs to be timed so that the tram doesn't have to stop or slow at the junction at all.



Example: A tram at the Abbey Street stop heading to Tallaght. The driver requests priority, waits for the vertical bar, and then accelerates out of Abbey Street, traversing O'Connell street without delay.



Problem?

Most of the junctions between Parkgate Street and Busaras no longer give trams priority - this was changed after several accidents. They are timed instead.

monument

Winters wrote: »

There are two instances of tram stops being too close together on the Red Line. I would certainly question why 1. Rialto & Fatima and 2. Goldenbridge & Drimnagh are only 300m apart..

Thats 5 minutes walking distance and no doubt could shave about 4 minutes off the travel time?

Bluebell >> (curve, junction, pinch point) >> 670m >> Blackhorse >> 560m >> Drimnagh >> 254m >> Goldenbridge >> 367m >> Suir Road >> (over and under bridges) >> 616m >> Rialto >> 258m >> Fatima >> 490m >> (curves) >> James's >> etc

Where are you getting the 4min saving from?

How sure are you that any changes will not lead to more waiting at traffic lights or bunching of trams at peak times?

Winters wrote: »

Imagine removing the Hospital, Goldenbridge, Fatima, Four Courts and Connolly Stops.. What kind of improved journey time would we have then end to end?

On the Green line the Stillorgan and Sandyford stops are also 350m apart. As part of the LAP for Sandyford it was proposed to move the Stillorgan stop to the corner of Blackthorn Drive but I dont believe that went any further.

You want a gap of nearly 800m between Smithfield and Jervis, which in some of the most densely populated areas in the country and has a high level of offices as well as a major tourist attraction?

You want to reduce access to Tallaght Hospital rather than improving access and punching a hole in it's boundary wall?

Green line is quite different in its distances because of its far greater segregation. Moving the Stillorgan stop westwards would just slow down trams between Kilmacud and Stillorgan. There would be no gain and possibly slower service overall if you just moved the Stillorgan stop

This is around about the distances between stops on the Green line before and after Stillorgan... Milltown >> 870m >> Windy Arbour >> 1km >> Dundrum >> 790m >> Balally‎ >> 850 >> Kilmacud >> 900m >> Stillorgan >> 340m >> Sandyford >> (curves etc) >> 970m Central Park >> (M50) >> 530m >> Glencairn >> 520m >> The Gallops >> 730m >> Ballyogan Wood.

Winters wrote: »

Anything less than 500m is quite pointless.

Unless there is a good reason, which there seems to be in most cases.

Winters

monument wrote: »

Drimnagh >> 254m >> Goldenbridge >> 367m >> Suir Road

monument wrote: »

Rialto >> 258m >> Fatima

Those are very interesting figures, my 300m were just estimates using google maps. Where did you get those distances from?

monument wrote: »

Where are you getting the 4min saving from?

Just a guestimate of 2min per stop with a peak dwell time, hence the question mark. Would be interesting to know the actual saving.

monument wrote: »

How sure are you that any changes will not lead to more waiting at traffic lights or bunching of trams at peak times?

Im not, just adding to the discussion. There are no traffic lights between the stops in question anyway. How would removing 2 stops create bunching?

monument wrote: »

You want a gap of nearly 800m between Smithfield and Jervis, which in some of the most densely populated areas in the country and has a high level of offices as well as a major tourist attraction?

I don't, I said imagine. I wouldn't remove the Four Courts myself, I was just questioning if all the stops that have been discussed on this thread were in fact removed how much of a time saving would occur.

monument wrote: »

You want to reduce access to Tallaght Hospital rather than improving access and punching a hole in it's boundary wall?

Very good question, its been in the Tallaght LAP but why has this not occurred in the 6 and a half years of operation I wonder?

monument wrote: »

Moving the Stillorgan stop westwards would just slow down trams between Kilmacud and Stillorgan. There would be no gain and possibly slower service overall if you just moved the Stillorgan stop

I wasn't advocating it, just noting that it arose as part of a LAP. You're right though, with the Stillorgan crossing there it may not make any difference.

monument

Winters wrote: »

Those are very interesting figures, my 300m were just estimates using google maps. Where did you get those distances from?

Just a guestimate of 2min per stop with a peak dwell time, hence the question mark. Would be interesting to know the actual saving.

Im not, just adding to the discussion. There are no traffic lights between the stops in question anyway. How would removing 2 stops create bunching?

Just google maps -- on satellite view.

2min seems very high.

There traffic lights along this section Blackhorse, and I've been on trams on the this part of the red line more than a hand full of times where stops acted as a divider for trams when the tram ahead keeps getting slowed at traffic lights or at James's Street etc....

The wider point here is it is the junctions or lack of priority and often enforcement, and some very sharp turns and on shared street running, which are the problems. Stop spacing is minor while those problems are not sorted.

Winters wrote: »

I don't, I said imagine. I wouldn't remove the Four Courts myself, I was just questioning if all the stops that have been discussed on this thread were in fact removed how much of a time saving would occur.

I'm not sure of the point of imagining something which would overall reduce the level of service or quality of coverage.

Winters wrote: »

Very good question, its been in the Tallaght LAP but why has this not occurred in the 6 and a half years of operation I wonder?

I don't know why in this case, but I know the lack of direct walking access is also a problem on the Citywest extension and on the Green line.

It's also a general problem with many Irish suburbs and some more central areas. The worst thing about it is that more often than not, all that is in the way is a wall, with public roads on both sides. Often residents, businesses or institutions have some unholy fear that direct access will cause all sorts of crime and all sorts of antisocial behaviour.

With Luas, these problems should be mostly sorted at planning and construction, not post construction -- and they could keep funding aside in case walls need to be replaced or gates are needed etc. Luas also often failed to put in half decent walking and cycle routes where there is more than enough space.

Jehuty42

lxflyer wrote: »

Most of the junctions between Parkgate Street and Busaras no longer give trams priority - this was changed after several accidents. They are timed instead.

Wait, so we had a system for giving public transport priority at junctions and we had to have it removed?

What hope is there for bus priority as is done in other cities if Dublin has demonstrated it can't implement these systems without people getting into accidents? Are we doomed to have half-assed "QBCs" forever?

rOBeRt frETt

a bus crashed into the Luas as it was traversing O'Connell street- this is seems, is reason enough to switch back to signal. as far as every other thoroughfare or minor junction Luas has never had priority as far as I have witnessed. every 8 minutes a Luas is stopped outside a housing estate in Citywest- there is less than 100 residents living in the estate. how may times have you been driving your car through a junction where the Luas is waiting? would be worth counting how many times the thing stops end to end - I'd guess from saggart to Connolly it stops about 40 times

robd

rOBeRt frETt wrote: »

a bus crashed into the Luas as it was traversing O'Connell street- this is seems, is reason enough to switch back to signal.

Luas crashed into Bus, not the other way around.

http://www.herald.ie/news/luas-driver-is-charged-over-city-centre-crash-2208146.html

cgcsb

I'm not keep on removing city centre stops for the sake of a 4 minute time saving. I'm all on for removing suburban stops. Maybe get rid of the Rialto and Goldenbridge stops. The main issue as far as I can see is the frustrating stops at traffic light junctions, if the RPA and City council could get their heads together and sort this out then the journey time would be at least 10 mins faster. Also an increase in speed in the line and then there's no reason why Tallagh-Abbey st can't be a half an hour or less.

rOBeRt frETt

robd wrote: »

Luas crashed into Bus, not the other way around.

http://www.herald.ie/news/luas-driver-is-charged-over-city-centre-crash-2208146.html

well shut my mouth

Wild Bill

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm not keep on removing city centre stops for the sake of a 4 minute time saving. I'm all on for removing suburban stops. Maybe get rid of the Rialto and Goldenbridge stops.

Rialto and Goldenbridge are suburbs? Not from where I'm lookin' !
Inner City. :cool:

cgcsb

Wild Bill wrote: »

Rialto and Goldenbridge are suburbs? Not from where I'm lookin' !
Inner City. :cool:

I'm from town town, they's suburbs as far as I'm concerned, and they're in red zone 2, rather than central, inner suburbs perhaps.

LXFlyer

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Wait, so we had a system for giving public transport priority at junctions and we had to have it removed?

What hope is there for bus priority as is done in other cities if Dublin has demonstrated it can't implement these systems without people getting into accidents? Are we doomed to have half-assed "QBCs" forever?

It was removed at the city centre junctions - namely every junction after Benburb Street to Gardiner Street due to there being several accidents.

It is still in situ at other junctions.

Winters

lxflyer wrote: »

It was removed at the city centre junctions - namely every junction after Benburb Street to Gardiner Street due to there being several accidents.

It is still in situ at other junctions.

I believe it still is there as a function but removed from the driver operating procedures.

rOBeRt frETt

Victor wrote: »

Not everyone from Tallaght is going to the city centre.

no, but everyone going to the city centre is getting the grand tour of Tallaght - what's your point?